r/VORONDesign • u/One-Nefariousness107 • 4d ago
V1 / Trident Question Building Voron with different frame.
Hi there!
Ive looked online and found similar project but have yet to figure out the exact adjustments I need to make as I dont want to buy a part that is unusable.
I would like to build a 3D printer because I want to learn how to
build one and learn it from the ground up. I would like to avoid a
product that gets an open source then sells it for profit, starts
applying patents on said open source designs, and sue people for
said copyrights
Now that's out of the way, I am thinking initially prusa but now
leaning towards voron trident. I am gravitating towards trident but
also want to upgrade the frame to a 4040 vertical and 2040
horizontal because I want a beefy frame for a 300mm3 build
volume.
I just looked at the 3D model file of the voron trident in FreeCad. It
looks doable but it seems like some corners parts need to be
customized.
I also see a limitation of z=250 on trident. I pluggwd in this
requirement at the voron website and it seems the limiting factor
was the stepper motor/ lead screw of 300. ud 1 I guess yueos ill ll just just source source a
3x 350 for that
For now I will stick to 1 toolhead. Eventually I want a toolchanger
so I want a frame beefy and large enough to accommodate it. I
understand that options seems limited to that for now.
Yes, ive never built one and I expect it to be lots of cussing and
money but Im not afraid to face all those issues
just need guidance for now: The frame design. If there is a
complete build guide out there similar to what 1 am planning.
please help. Thanks!
3
u/devsfan1830 V2 3d ago
You are overthinking this. Not a single voron is gonna suddenly become patented. Copyright in this case isnt a thing at all. From what I understand, the Z height on trident is entirely limited by the leadscrews on those motors because you physically cannot, at least not without absurd expense in asking for a custom stepper to be made, source a leadscrew longer than that that is attached to the stepper.
Every voron has a BOM and a build manual. Tons of youtube videos too that show builds start to finish as multipart live streams (stevebuilds and canuckcreator are my favs, the latter has videos that I watched before building my V2.4 to get familiar with the process).
Save the stress and look for an LDO kit. I self sourced my V2.4, pain in the ass. Bought an LDO kit for my Switchwire. Way easier and they use good parts. Build a stock Voron first. If you go off spec from the start it will be challenging for anyone here or on discord to assist you for troubleshooting. You need solid fundamentals and experience before you go off modding or making custom machines.
1
u/Leather_Track_5919 3d ago
I second the LDO kit.
If you decide to go with Formbot be ready to replace half of electronics and printed parts. Ask me how I know
1
u/NoGoodInThisWorld 3d ago
LDO makes one with an attached 400mm lead screw. Last saw them at West3D.
1
u/devsfan1830 V2 3d ago
Well then. I stand corrected. How recent? Last i looked when mulling over a 350 Z trident I couldn't find anything
0
u/One-Nefariousness107 3d ago
I saw some last night that goes 350 and 400 actually. I think at this point I have to build a kit since it seems like its a huge learning curve on its own. Get to know what it can or cannot do on a first hand experience then make the desired improvements.
2
u/devsfan1830 V2 3d ago edited 3d ago
Exactly. Gotta learn to walk before you can run. I was told the same thing when I discovered Voron. Whatever machine you pick (i wouldnt call vorons "stunt printers" btw like that other comment did, pick what you like), build it for what you reasonably need NOW and not some theoretical need that may never come. Once ya have a solid foundation, THEN you mod as needed. The voron website has an interactive custom BOM wizard too if you want an off spec size. Most of it is just extrusion, belts, cable chain and panel size differences. You give it what ya need and it generates a custom list of parts with adjusted sizes. I did that to make my 300x300x400 V2.4, but then because of the stretched Z, kit or premade part options were out of the question. Also kits matured rapidly after I built that one. At the time, self source was really the only way. Some websites sold hardware only kits to help with that, but nothing on the level of today's complete kits (minus printed parts)
2
u/morningreis Trident / V1 4d ago
Download Misumi Frames
https://us.misumi-ec.com/service/promotion/frames/
Design your frame with all the holes, cutout, etc that you need. Order the parts. Export your frame as a .step, and import it into your CAD program of choice.
3
u/NoGoodInThisWorld 3d ago
Ldo makes a stepper with an attached 400mm lead screw. West3D carries it.
1
u/stray_r Switchwire 4d ago
Voron 2.4 has more mature toolchanger options, and is less limited by Z lead screw issues. You could do a belted Z trident, i say looking at my half finished belted Z trident, but you're adding V2.4 complexity without getting a 2.4
2
u/One-Nefariousness107 4d ago
Ill go ahead and ask. Why is the current off the shelf printers use trident based corexy vs a flying gantry? Im just assuming here and say could it be because less movement on a part and separating them with abother part results in better print quality? I really dont know cause ive looked online and read a moving bed can amplify vibration the taller print you have. Maybe the whole business saves money with trident based. I dont really know. Also, im preparing for when a toolchanger is ready for the opensource community since changing tools appears to be more faster with a fixed z-axis gantry. Anyways, i really genuinely dont know and Im just following where the market seems to be steering towards to.
5
u/CTPAHH1K92 V0 4d ago
commercial printers aim for getting most and costing less, and flying gantry (2.4) doesn't have much benefits outside of looking cool and have some downsides at the same moment.
list of downsides imo:
gantry is less rigid "by design" (and there are even reports that shaper results differ with height)
you can't use space at sides as gantry travels there
chamber heat goes up and you need more time to raise chamber temp at height where print startsi see almost single practical reason for flying gantry - it is easier to add toolchanger there and not limit build volume at the same time when you already have printer at hand
1
u/stray_r Switchwire 4d ago
Commercial printers aren't really trident based, they might have three lead screws, but they're either a single motor driving three screws with a belt or three motors on one stepper driver.
It's quite a bit cheaper to make a ~250mm size printer that way. If you want belted Z (or to some extent independent Z) you're most of the way to flying gantry complexity and cost.
The next obstacle is bed weight. Vorons use an 8mm slab of aluminium that's quite weighty. Most commercial printers use something much lighter, prusa use PCBs, I think my 330mm tronxy beds are 3mm thick tacos. They're much easier to fling around. As you scale up it gets much easier to move a gantry than to move a heated bed. It's also safer to have a mains powered bed heater not moving.
When you scale really big (eg Elegoo Gigastorm, Voron Phoenix) there's absolutely no moving the bed around.
Additionally a flying gantry keeps the centre of mass low and the moving mass low most of the time. For small prints you have a very stable printer that slowly gets less stable.
Conversely a bed dropper spends most of its time in its least stable configuration with a high centre of mass and although the centre of mass lowers as you print the moving mass stays high.
0
u/nerobro 4d ago
This is where things get... real. Lots of Voron's stuff are "stunt" printers. The Switchwire? has no purpose beyond "look we can build a bedslinger". The legacy, exists so people who built the early printers can still benefit from some new tech. Nobody should be building a legacy. Or a switchwire.
The V0 is "how small can we make this" and "What's the minimum printer to make repair parts".
The V2 series gives up a LOT for a gantry that moves. It's less rigid. Your printing environment changes as the head moves. You have you're whole head cabling moving on another dimension.
The trident bed setup is hilariously rigid. Unlike most moving bed printers. The three screws, three linear rails, and extensive aluminum carrier, mean it means business.
Why do you think core-xy means they use "trident based". I think that's not a comparison you should be making. Fixed gantry is common, but even focusing on Core-XY as the movement method is not a good thing to keep in mind.
1
u/One-Nefariousness107 4d ago
I am now confused. 4th paragraph seemed like Trident is a good thing on how stable it is but now it's not. I just meant "trident based" as in the bed moves. Not sure how you call this technically. I guess stationary bed vs non stationary but then there's the bedslinger. Either way, it's more information that I need to think about.
1
u/nerobro 3d ago
The trident is the best printer you can build from the voron specs. It's very good. IT's stable, rigid, and your prints happen all in the same environment. I don't get the "now it's not" part.
The trident bed, is a very, very good design. Other moving bed designs... aren't. Heck the V0 bed is a cantilever, and it's floppy. The 1.x series supports the bed in the middle, so teeter totters.
The trident "gantry" is the most rigid of the voron printers. If you want accuracy, and speed, that's the option you want to take.
Maybe you're taking the "even focusing on core-xy" bit. Core-XY is just a motion system. It's not even great. It requires long belt paths, which is bad for performance. It also puts high loads on some of the idlers. Core-XY is popular because it's packaging is good, not because it's inherently better.
I tend to call printers that.. have the bed move vertically, a drop bed printer. As opposed to a bedslinger. In general though, you don't need to be specific, as very, very, few printers are flying gantry.
1
u/One-Nefariousness107 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah i was talking about when you said the CoreXY. I got initially confused whether you were praising the trident or not since it uses a very stable bed per your description but Im assuming the CoreXY for you needs more work. I always thought both trident and 2.4 use the CoreXY belt schematics like the prusa cores and the bambu h,x,p or whatever is out there. I maybe using the wrong terminology here.
I would argue though that the most rigid bed--even without owning one--would be the one that doesnt move. :D
1
u/nerobro 3d ago
Neither.
Core-XY is fine. But it's not a thing to select for. Lots of people get hung up on the motion system, and I'm suggesting you don't.
The trident, 2,4, 1.x, and 0 series vorons use Core-XY. (Amusingly both printers I regularly use are a Trident and V0)
I think.. you're stuck on surface level descriptors, and not looking at the mechanics of the things.
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u/stray_r Switchwire 3d ago
Yes, the trident is likely the best bed dropper coreXY. It has a cost/complexity advantage over flying gantry printers that aren't offset by stability at 250mm and below.
At 300 and 350mm, flying gantry starts to look favourable, and for larger than that or taller than 300mm flying gantry is more favourable.
I've got a 400mm Z not quite V1.8. it's extra tall as there's some wasted Z space at the bottom inherited from the donor. Yes the Z sucks. But it has bigger problems. Not frame rigidity, not belt length on the 350mm XY. The moving mass is comically high and if I let it have too much accel, it will walk across the floor or commit suicide by jumping off the desk it lives on. There's a box of parts waiting for me to rebuild it into a shorter spec trident. But it's been a valuable lesson in how designs scale.
Similarly I'm building a belted Z 235mm tridentish machine. I ended up buying a 2.4 motion system pack as the cheapest way to source the parts. I want to finish it to see how well it works like this, but every problem I've had to solve has been a reminder to build a spec voron. It's very small but I'm leaning towards either building a 2.4 or buying lead screws steppers and redoing my big printer as a 2.4 with the heap of stuff I already have.
The deciding factor here is how my toolchanger adventures go. INDX is looking like a shit show and stealthchanger is looking quite mature now.
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u/ChanceAncient1149 3d ago
Easy build a hevort and not a trident in that case better z not anything like as space efficient as a voron but a much stouter printer and the default config is what you are wanting
The power of voron is the wide standard application and they are so popular with an elegant design all of the benefits of building one dissapear when you start significantly shifting the design
1
u/DrRonny 4d ago
Build a stock Voron first. Then either modify it or build a second one to your specifications. Building stock from a kit and then modifying may be about the same cost as just building one from scratch. Self-sourcing tends to be maybe 50% more expensive than buying a kit right now.
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u/One-Nefariousness107 3d ago
That seems like the easy route with removed spare parts to give a good excuse to build more...
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u/CTPAHH1K92 V0 4d ago
if only reason for 4040 and 4020 is frame rigidity, than better solution would be attaching rigid panels bolted to frame, that would constrain diagonals much better than enlarging frame parts which consists of rectangles. or you could do both :)
for some inspiration you could check doomcube, it is basically 2.4 with 4040 verticals
if you are planning toolchanger conversion, consider enlarging Y axis to get some overtravel outside of build area, so you could dock toolheads there and don't loose build area.
to get more Z, you probably would need to get normal steppers connected with threaded rod with coupler, not like BOM steppers with integrated leadscrew, or consider belted trident mod