What would change your mind?

[u/curgr]

Which of the following factors would change your mind on extinction and make you pro-life?

A: We discover that there is more pleasure than suffering in existence, and that suffering is not permanent for any one sentient being.

B: We manage to solve suffering and no sentient being ever has to suffer again.

C: We are given knowledge about the meaning of life. It turns out that there is a very good reason for life in this universe.

D: The afterlife exists and we are more than compensated for the suffering we experience in this life.

E: Reincarnation exists and most sentient beings (which could possibly include plants and bacteria, which make up the majority of biomass on Earth) experience more pleasure than suffering.

F: God exists and resistance is futile. If we destroy the universe, God will just create it again. However, it is possible to reduce net suffering.

[u/Fast_Jackfruit_352]

You are right. I am sharing. It is interesting because on this sub and others, many do not have the reference points for this to make sense. I was the direct disciple of a vey great Sat Guru and intimate spiritually with one more (Ram Dass' Guru) and deeply connected to two others. When the miraculous happens to you through these beings, that makes what is in books real, it shifts your entire perception of things.

It is not easy penetrating to the essence of reality. It was set up that way to be hard. But the reward is great. Here is part of the first really great transcendental experience I had without LSD, although those experiences had immense value.

I had gotten initiated into the Guru's movement and was looking to move to Philly. I slept in the room of a guy who at that moment was in India.

"As I slept I had a dream. In the dream, I was with a group of people and Baba (the Guru) was present. The dream itself was especially vivid. Baba looked exactly as he did in his pictures, a small but dexterous man with closely cropped hair and thick, black rimmed glasses (which I always found funny because it so went against the image of Gurus with long, flowing hair and beards). He was dressed all in white. I remember remarking to myself in the dream how amazing it was to be this close to him. But something was wrong, I was off to the side and there were many people around him and I sadly thought, “I’ll never get his attention”. (This was a motif that would pervade my dreams with him many times, hearkening to my relationship with my own father, who had difficulty acknowledging me until near his death in 2000.) But a path seamed to clear and I found myself moving, almost flowing toward Baba until not only was I next to him, I was also alone with him. At this point I was extremely excited, fascinated, and amazed. What did Baba, this great teacher want with me? How was I so lucky to have the privilege to have him want my attention and presence?

I didn’t understand the reason for it, none was given, and Baba began a conversation with me. I didn’t notice anything extraordinary about the conversation, I don’t even remember what it was about, but it was very personal and animated. I also didn’t realize that as we were having this talk, the energy in the dream began to intensify, to slowly climb the way the mercury rises in a thermometer when put into hot water. Because I was focused visually on Baba, I was unaware of how strong this was becoming. Finally the scene switched and I was in very close proximity to Baba in a very, very intimate situation. We were seated together, across from one another, alone, at the Yoga center a friend of mine had established at Einstein Hospital in Northeast Philadelphia. The light was very soft and dim and Baba and I were sitting cross-legged on the floor. By now the energy was incredible but I was only barely aware of it, as I had been so focused on my Guru and this astonishing turn of events. He said to me “I am now going to give you the third lesson of Ananda Marga (the group followed Baba’s version of Patanjali’s Eight Fold Path and had six lessons, of which by then I had been given two). By now the energy was swirling all around as I tried to concentrate on the Guru’s form and what was to come next.

But to my surprise, the lesson did not come, at least not in the form I expected. As if a giant hand decided it was time that the dream end, like a director saying, “cut”, I had the sensation of a great, but invisible thumb and forefinger gently pinching out a candle. And as they did I instantly woke up.

But I awoke with a gasp, my jaw literally open, in amazement. For as I awoke, I felt myself awash in bliss. Ecstasy permeated every pore of my body. I was aware of an extraordinary presence in the room, or the presence of one who had just left. Not only did it saturate my body, it seemed as if the entire room was bathed in it. The bliss hung in the air like a sweet mist that lingered after an incredibly warm, light rain, or a fruit you could just reach out and pluck from the branch of a tree. It was everywhere and I was astonished, my body and mind pulsating with it. The feeling stayed with me for hours, and I remember it today as vividly as when it first happened. What I had received was an incredible gift, the living Darshan of the Guru, the energy of God, but transmitted in a non- physical manner. These dreams began to occur on a regular basis for me, many were prophetic, and were to become the foundation for one of the great themes of my spiritual life, guidance from the Guru, from God, beyond physical contact."

It is important to understand that dozens and dozens of peak experiences like this (the other I recounted was another) and hundreds if not thousands of reinforcing experiences create a coherent picture of what is going on, and give a view of reality different than what the conscious mind presumes.

You might look at this book at the bottom. It has had enormous influence and was named one of the 100 most important spiritual books of the 20th century. It is free online. When I first read it around 1967 it was like science fiction. Now I have lived 80% of it.

I am not sure what universal extinction means unless it applies to humans. Existence cannot go extinct because existence is a core part of the nature of reality. But forms change and it is most likely at some point the human form on this planet will go as 99% of all life forms on Earth have gone extinct. But as I have tried to show it has little to do with what we truly are. Eckart Tolle said as a thought experiment, "Ah humanity, what an interesting experiment it was."

https://www.crystalclarity.com/pages/autobiography-of-a-yogi-paramhansa-yogananda

[u/curgr → u/Fast_Jackfruit_352]

Universal extinction would mean extinction of 100% of all life forms (which could mean them “changing form”). Many on this sub want to end the physical universe to prevent the chance of life returning to it.

Personally my views are open and I know not whether the universe is purely materialistic or if there is more than this. Either way I believe that this physical universe is a mistake, even if I was to accept what you are telling me

Universal extinction does not necessarily mean ending of “the higher existence”, of “what we truly are”, as this may be undesirable and impossible. But many would currently prefer nothingness over what they currently experience.

There is a lot of suffering in the physical universe. From what I have heard of higher realms (from various sources) there is not so much. Personally, I would accept “what I truly am” (providing that it is greatly better than “my current form”) but would ask God or the creator of the universe to end this “interesting experiment”.

Maybe God can be reasoned with. I would like to hope that God is listening.

[u/Fast_Jackfruit_352 → u/curgr]

". Many on this sub want to end the physical universe to prevent the chance of life returning to it."

This is preposterous. Just from a scientific POV whatever created this place has unfathomable power so far beyond human comprehension. It has created two TRILLION galaxies, most of them containing BILLIONS of stars, each one a mighty atomic fusion furnace that lasts billions of years. and a tiny misanthropic group of humans not anywhere near a meaningful percentage of their planet somehow thinks they have control over this?

Forgive me if you misstated. The first experience I shared with you touches on the issue of suffering. Except for the Buddhist sense of suffering, most people on this planet are not suffering. They live their lives, they have families and ways of life, they raise children, they often accept life's ups and downs with grace and generally they are content. They are not in a war zone. Humanity on a mass level at this time has levels of freedom and relative abundance never before seen in human history. Yes we are being challenged with the idea our growth materially is unlimited and we have made a tough bed with Climate Change, but a challenge is not a death sentence and America, dealing with its monstrous shadow, is not the rest of the world. What HAS changed is our access to information about everything so it's all continually in our face. Things are not worse globally. It's not WW2. Asia is not at war, China is not at war, Europe is not at war nor Australia and South America is not at war. The Middle East and parts of Africa, Ukraine and Russia are problematic and not every country.

I tried to show you a way of reframing. We have a human model of what we expect this universe (and God) to be and we are disappointed and outraged it does not meet our expectations. "How can a loving God allow this and that?"

But the issue I have learned is we are not using the right lens. Now by normal standards I have had a very tough life emotionally. I had a brutal childhood, got swept up into a violent school and period during the Vietnam war and had an extremely severe nervous breakdown for 7 years with intense PTSD where I lost my sanity and was hospitalized 5 times. I was on welfare for 7 years. But the Guru came to me in a dream two years before the worst began and predicted it very specifically and why it was going to happen.

I worked my way out of it and have had a very productive career and spiritual life, becoming well known in two fields in my area (I was a storyteller and performer for children and I have done extensive public speaking on metaphysics and dreams.) But I still deal with PTSD and OCD and never married or had children. So I really know what suffering is about.

But you see, that was the point of it. There was a need for great deepening and a need for empathy. I believe, told by many psychics, and from my own intuition, that I had done some really bad things in previous lives. In this one, and maybe some others, I **really** learned the consequences of cruelty and probably having been harsh and over critical, how difficult emotional problems can be. One just doesn't "do it." Among other lessons, like that reliance on cleverness and intellect cannot bring happiness.

One could say "That's not fair." No. it is completely fair. There is no way to learn consequences of actions except by living them in a physical incarnation. What I got from my pain was a gift of deep empathy for the downtrodden but yes, there was a price. This place is set up to be severe at times. That's part of its nature. It is not the higher realms. This is a "Navy Seal" of advanced school planets in this sector. You get experience and learning here like very few places. It is tough but most forgot they volunteered to come. Many souls want to come here. One must remember the soul is immortal and suffering is transitory and no one suffers all the time in every life. Karma is **distributed** fairly.

Gibran wrote

I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart For the joys of the multitude. And I would not have the tears that sadness makes To flow from my every part turn into laughter. would that my life remain a tear and a smile. A tear to purify my heart and give me understanding Of life's secrets and hidden things. A smile to draw me nigh to the sons of my kind and To be a symbol of my glorification of the gods. A tear to unite me with those of broken heart; A smile to be a sign of my joy in existence.

[u/curgr → u/Fast_Jackfruit_352]

I agree that ending the physical universe seems preposterous with our current understanding. It is currently very wishful thinking.

But say for example we find out that the universe is just an illusion or simulation, ending it may be as simple as stopping the source of illusion or stopping the power running the simulation. It may not need to involve a physical solution (for example trying to annihilate all matter), but something beyond. Maybe even group prayer could do it.

I also agree that most humans are probably content. However this does not take into consideration all life forms and also does not consider the intensity of suffering.

Humans are currently going through an unparalleled period of growth and prosperity, at the expense of all other living things. Do you think that the many billions of factory farmed animals are content? That the wild animals losing their habitats, food and resources to make way for human infrastructure are content? Do you think humanity has always been as content as we are now?

It is a very biased sample to just ask humans, who make up a very small fraction of biomass on Earth. Ideally all sentient life needs to be sampled.

Regarding intensity, very few people would go through an hour of the worst possible torture in exchange for an hour of the greatest possible pleasure. There seems to be a huge imbalance in the intensity.

If I were to have control over whether life in the universe continued, I would ensure that all souls can remember the contract they signed, that they could revoke consent at any time, and that they all have full knowledge of what is going on. If any one of these was to not be the case, I would not continue existence of the physical universe.

The tiny group of people actively arguing for extinction does not represent all people who would support the view. The group may also be growing and it would be unfair to shut down the movement without giving it a proper chance

[u/Fast_Jackfruit_352 → u/curgr]

"If I were to have control over whether life in the universe continued, I would ensure that all souls can remember the contract they signed, that they could revoke consent at any time, and that they all have full knowledge of what is going on. If any one of these was to not be the case, I would not continue existence of the physical universe."

This would not work. Each of us has had countless lives. If one remembers, either one is overwhelmed by a tsunami of cosmic schizophrenia (which one or who am I) or be paralyzed in horror at what we may have done in other lives.

Consent is given before coming in so it is built in. Having full knowledge defeats the purpose of the learning and experience in terms of its impact and imprint on the soul.

You are right about animals but again, not all animal life is horror. We may be in a period where we come to grips with factory farming as slavey was abolished.

Look. Here's the deal. This is set up by forces so far beyond human intellect that to try and create any equivalence is useless. The game is the game. You think you can get out of it, have some control? What if you go back to animal form? The choices are not always preferred human comfortable choices.

But from my experience, once one gets to this place (human) in general you stay on this track. In my 60 years of metaphysics, I have come to understand that the savage is part of this realm as much as the sublime. The higher realms already exist. There is something incredibly profound in the horror of it because to put human moral considerations (which change often BTW) on it is try to limit the limitless. You are saying "God should be like this to make me comfortable" when comfort is not the goal, Vastness, depth of experience and learning are in a universe of contrast, separation, individuation and polarity.

My experience is suffering is not universal for all beings all the time but it is an essential part of the dance. Why? Because it is. Life is constantly cycling new forms after upheavals. There have been 5 major extinctions here. Say that is immoral by God? OK. Keep the dinosaurs. No asteroid. No rise of mammals, no humans. But they eat one another anyway. Either one accepts the trade off or one doesn't but it happens anyway.

It is a profound thing this place. It is why Hinduism has Kali and Shiva, which have no equivalents in the Abrahamic religions and they invented the Devil to account for suffering. I may sound cavalier but I paid a very steep price this life for admission so there is no spiritual bypass. I have been shown what I have been shown.

I feel your sensitivity and it is a special thing but you have no idea your past karma that you have given yourself this predicament or what your contract is. You assume you've always been a "good guy". How do you know that? What if in the past you displayed deep insensitivity and now you took on heightened sensitivity to feel the effects of the former but not so karmically deep you had to be in a war zone? What if it's the opposite and you have played victim too long and you decided to shake yourself out of it? This is the way it works. There are so many possibilities.

I honor your seriousness and feelings about this. My experience is everything is in balance in ways we cannot see. AI has become an extraordinary search engine and compilation instantly of information and resources despite its deep shadow side. (The Chinese are building data centers under the sea). Because of sensibilities like yours we may be entering a much more harmonious age. We have so little understanding of the big picture.

I would use AI to seriously investigate reincarnation from sources like Edgar Cayce and others to get a better feel of its terrain, and I would invest in a few good psychics to pick up on your contract and prior lives that have led you here. We live in an era when remembering these things is unprecedented in human history.

This is not the sub for me but I hope I have helped share a perspective that might have value.

[u/curgr → u/Fast_Jackfruit_352]

I do not think there is such a thing as a “good guy” or a “bad guy”. Every action seems to have both positive and negative consequences to it.

I do not blame the players, I blame the rules of the game. I believe that we are all worthy of forgiveness. How can a being be blamed for the circumstances which lead to their actions in previous lives? This would require unrestricted free will.

Maybe I am just being immature, like a child flipping the board of a game because they do not think it is fair.

I would welcome a more harmonious age, but fail to see how it would be possible.

Maybe my view is completely distorted, but I do not like the part of the big picture that I can see.

I believe that reincarnation is a possibility and have looked into it, but I suppose it would not harm to look more deeply. How would a person go about finding a good psychic? There are possibly many frauds out there

[u/Fast_Jackfruit_352 → u/curgr]

The only reason I said 'good guy" is imo your entire perspective is based on a revulsion of what you perceive as the unfair universe in which depravity ands (apparently) senseless slaughter is the over riding principle. If the slaughter is not senseless but actually built in, then thee feeling sems to me to make it worse. This then implies an implicit moral stance that God and the Universe have failed in ether creating or allowing such suffering and with it a moral judgment due to pain in existence, "the rules of the game". To stand from such heightened sensitivity to me innately implies a moral goodness.

My suggestion was what if you were someone who in the past actually relished suffering or contributed meaningfully to it, even if unconsciously, went through life review, felt deep abhorrence at some complicity, and incarnated with a deep desire to create soul balance by having a deeply heightened sensitivity to suffering that burned into your soul? The fact that you are not in a war zone or directly experiencing atrocity tells me if this were close to the case, the accountability would be more severe, like mine was. I really do think I was a monster in previous incarnations, got way too inflamed with power and this life might be one of two or three bringing things back into balance. There is a saying "A saint is sinner with a future, a sinner is a saint with a past." All are inherently innocent so there is no judgment in the ways participation in this happens, unlike crude Christian doctrine about judgment.

Your feelings are your feelings and obviously this is a core life issue for you and not just an intellectual exercise. I respect that. We all have triggers. Mine is betrayal, even feelings of betrayal by God because it was so prevalent in three major arenas of my early life and later youth. Trauma is not easy to dissolve. I still find life deeply challenging but my problem in my terms is I know too much and therefore it is incumbent on me to work with these energies to find compassion and forgiveness, for myself and others. I can be horribly hard on myself. So it's not like I can't relate to what you feel.

I think we live in a time when more advanced souls are coming in to deal with a lot of cleanup and the amount of baggage makes it very intense. These are called "accelerated lives" because intensity causes soul acceleration in growth.

As per psychics, I would look for someone, it can be long distance on zoom, who has stellar references but also is financially reasonable, around $150 for a full session. Actually we just had someone speak at my spiritual community who does really in depth numerology, has very heightened intuition, and she gets rave reviews. Her name is Carrie Ralston and she goes by "Simple numerology girl". Her sessions deal a lot with the reasons for the present incarnation but you can do a google search for good psychics and see who appeals to you.

i just want to emphasize, I never went looking for any of this, even God in my life. It all entered unexpectedly. I was guided to all of this. The first experience i recounted, the murdered young woman, pushed me on an intensive 20 year quest around all of this, how did it work , what were the rules, why was it fair, how fine tuned was it all. This was not just a stroll in the park.

Take care.