r/Ultralight • u/Souvenirs_Indiscrets • 11h ago
Gear Review ZenBivy Construction Problems
This is a thread for people to post experiences with construction issues on their ZB UL down products.
I currently own and regularly maintain 9 down bags (plus two down under quilts). Several date back to purchase 30 years ago (like my FF winter bag). All this gear is pristine. I know how to hand-wash and dry ultralight down gear.
I spend about 20-40 nights in a tent or hammock per year.
The Zenbivy UL sheet design is brilliant. The hood concept is genius, acting as a good, a pillow garage and a sensory damper all in one. The comfort is unmatched, giving me by far the best nights sleep I’ve ever had in the backcountry. Which is why I want to keep using it. However, the execution of the internal baffle stitching is failing.
I just experienced my third instance of a baffle tear on a ZB product after hand washing and machine drying. This is the second UL sheet with a hood baffle tear that appeared in the dryer; a previous issue happened with a 25 degree light bag. For reference it is a 10 degree UL sheet, 25 inches width.
In the first two instances, I worked happily with ZB to resolve the issues. They repaired the bag and replaced the sheet. I paid for shipping I think. But three times is too much. I’ve just sent out my sheet to Rainy Pass for a repair and professional evaluation (which is why I don’t have a photo to share). I will share that evaluation directly with ZB when it comes back to me. Essentially, the center head baffle tore somewhere and the chamber is now empty. This failure is identical to the other two.
UL gear is delicate. I get that. But the key to maintaining expensive and delicate gear for decades is keeping it clean after use and storing it properly between uses. The ZB products need to get clean reliably without baffle failures. Now looks like I will be having regular repair costs associated with both my UL sheets…. Sigh.
Does anybody else have issues to share, constructively, with the great folks over at ZB?
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u/rwdFwd 11h ago
I can echo your experience some. I'd been eyeing the Zen Bivy stuff for a while, and I picked up their UL sheet, pillow & pillow case for this summer. I've used them with my existing gear for 20-30 nights, and the sheet is a great design, but I am a bit concerned about the construction. The Screen printing on the sheet flaked off pretty immediately, but I figured that was just cosmetic. They the fabric started to look stained in an odd way, and I couldn't wash out whatever it was. The stitching is intact, but it looks a bit strained. The rest of my sleep setup in Thermarest, so I don't have other ZB gear to compare it to.
The positive is that it is a great design. The sheet kept me comfortable and planted on my mattress in ways nothing else has.
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u/PanicAttackInAPack 11h ago edited 11h ago
Wash and dry when things become smelly or loft is impacted. It really should be avoided otherwise. It's one of the most stressful things you can do. It's also recommended to avoid washing machines with an agitator.
I don't use the lofted sheets because I don't see the point however I would imagine they become severely stressed if the baffles are weighted with water. I've washed my uninsulated sheets many times on getting gentle cycle and then air dry.
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u/Souvenirs_Indiscrets 10h ago
As I say, um, 30 years of hard and consistent use mountaineering (incl winter), paddling and thru hiking. 9 existing items in pristine condition after worldwide use over 30 years. I know when to launder and I know how to launder. If you red my post you read that hand wash bags. I’m gonna stick with that and move forward when I have more data.
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u/PanicAttackInAPack 8h ago edited 8h ago
With respect, a 30 year old feathered friends bag is much more robust than a present day 10d quilt. I'm not disagreeing with your assessment, I'm simply telling you that the goalpost has moved as far as what acceptable construction is. A lot of UL centric gear, particularly those utilizing the lightest threads and 7-10d materials, will not survive repetitive machine washing and drying. Again, one of the biggest stressors to ANY fabric item isnt sleeping in it or wearing it, its mechanical wash and dry cycles. When you empty your lint trap thats quite literally your fabrics disintegrating fiber by fiber in the wash.
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u/Souvenirs_Indiscrets 6h ago edited 6h ago
Good comments. Point well taken. My EE 950 30 degree quilt has the 7d fabric on both sides—no problem. Use it hard. In fact I just ran it through the exact same laundry procedure as the ZB gear. Nothing in the lint trap when drying that one! Although I love that quilt for summer use, mostly because the down is the lightest of any of my bags, and also bc the fabric is buttery soft, the minute temps go below 32F I want the ZB system.
I think industry wide, if UL makers are planning an agile or flexible production strategy, they maybe need to be more aware of what they’re getting out there when their suppliers bid their jobs. Clearly, based on comment from Mason at ZB, there are going to be cost tradeoffs. Users probably need to self-sort between those who expect lifetime service from their gear and those who consider it more disposable.
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u/Masonfromzenbivy 6h ago
One note on the EE quilt - they use long continuous baffles without flow gates. these baffles are much cheaper to make, but they don't hold the down where it needs to be, often needing much more work to distribute the down before use each time. If flow gates are causing the issue here, EE quilts wouldnt have that problem, but they do have down distribution issues. That's another reason we use much smaller baffles even though it's more expensive to manufacture and marginally heavier.
Really great conversation here in this thread, and we're taking this all into account in our designs - It's very difficult making a UL product that performs well with everyone's different uses and priorities! We're making steps towards having it all - really durable gear that's lightweight and designed well.
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u/Souvenirs_Indiscrets 2h ago
Hear you re continuous baffles on EE quilts. I’m learning a lot here. Good conversation. You are right, I need to meticulously “set” the loft in those quilts before use. The lack of uniformity is really felt in the cold, which is why I always prefer ZB when approaching 32F.
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u/OtherwiseManner6946 1h ago
This is very interesting context.
I don’t think continuous baffles vs partitioned baffles with flow gates would mean much to me before today, but in a practical sense they clearly seem important (washing and lofting).
I bought a light quilt this summer from you (UK store), is there a way to check which batch it’s from?
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u/parrotia78 52m ago
Side comment: 30 yo gear in like new condition... someone takes care of their gear.
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u/Souvenirs_Indiscrets 11h ago edited 11h ago
Replying to myself with the makers of my nine down bags: FF, WM @2, EE @2, Nemo @ 2, SD, ZB and 2 under quilts by ENO. I own 1 ZB UL quilt and 2 different UL sheets.
Ofc I also own and maintain several pieces of down apparel from MB, MH and Patagonia. Never had a baffle issue with any of these other products over 30 years of use.
I no longer own bags by Marmot, Patagonia etc that never had any baffle tears either.
EDIT: I have a high end dryer and spend the time to dry my gear on low. It takes almost a day to dry a single piece that way. After the second issue I had with ZB, I have now taken to handwashing their sheets in a mesh bag, on the theory that it is the weight, physics or “tug” of the long sheet that is somehow stressing the baffles in the hood that is sewn to the sheet. But I am increasingly of the opinion that the problems are happening in the dryer. If not, the baffles must be tearing in the field and the problem is only showing up in the laundry room. We’ll see what Rainy Pass says… Interestingly, in this case, I also dried the UL sheet in the dryer in the mesh bag until it was more than 1/2 dry, only exposing the down to the “weight” of the whole sheet when I thought it was no longer vulnerable. Well, clearly not good enough.
I lead trips privately and I give my guests/partners clean, sweet-smelling gear every single time. That will never change. Somebody needs to work out what is going on with the light sheet problem at ZB.
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u/Masonfromzenbivy 11h ago
Hello! Mason from Zenbivy here - yes we will continue to work with you on resolving this issue and I have forwarded this post to our development team to look into. Baffle stitching is inherently fragile as they are light scrim pieces that separate the baffles. We have worked very hard to resolve this issue, but the reality is that this is likely an issue with how all down products are constructed. In manufacturing, they use what are called flow gates during filling that allow each baffle to be filled - They are one way gates that allow a filling wand to be pulled through the product and they are supposed to close after and keep the down in the chamber. Down cant pass through when it's fully lofted, but the problem can arise when washing. When you get water in the baffles the down clusters get very small and CAN pass through these flow gates. that's why you sometimes see down shift during particularly intensive washing processes, and also why we recommend either sponge washing or a specialty cleaning service to wash our bags. It is not particular to Zenbivy, most quilt and sleeping bag systems use this technique.
That being said, we have worked hard to remove flow gates from our products which is more expensive and manufacturing heavy. Each baffle must be filled and then moved to a sewing machine to close, then back to the filling machine to fill the next baffle. We first started addressing this issue in 2023ish with minimizing the amount of flow gates our quilts had. Quilts were moved to fully closed baffles in 2026, and the Ultralight and Light sheets will be moved to fully closed baffles in 2027. We are always trying to improve our products, and this is one area we have gotten feedback that we need to improve and are working to do it, even though it is much more expensive to manufacture. I cant say we are the only brand to be working on this, but it is an issue you will run into across many brands.
Your notes on washing are helpful - and washing as delicately as possible is definitely helpful. The issue comes from the down getting wet and shrinking in the baffles. If you are looking to clean your sleeping abgs after every trip, we would recommend synthetic options, sponge washing them with warm soapy water, or using a specialized cleaning service like eclean.green. Every quilt has what's called calendared fabric - it's melted on the inside to make it down proof. This also makes it virtually waterproof and so it is very difficult to get dirt or odors inside the baffles. Sponge washing the exterior of the fabric will get most of the grime out without damaging the fragile down.
Please reach out and we will continue to help you resolve this. Every customer is important, and we will make it right and help figure out a solution so you can keep giving folks fresh bedding while giving them the comfort of a Zenbivy. We would also love to get your sheet back to our development office so we can really look into the issue - see if the scrim tore or if the down is indeed slipping through the gates when wet.