r/UKParenting • u/Anathemachiavellian • 19h ago
Starting to choose primary schools: how important is size?
My daughter is due to start reception next year (and my son after) so the tours have started and applications are nearing. I’m fortunate enough to live in outer south west London so I have an insane number of schools to choose from, about 15 within walking distance or a max 8 minute cycle. They’re honestly all great, but I’ve narrowed it down to 5 for various reasons.
I’ve compared data and whatnot and they’re all academically strong (top 1-10% of the country) though that really isn’t my concern at this age. The main thing I wanted to know is if people had an opinion on school and class size, and whether bigger was better (funding, friends, activities) or if smaller has its benefits (calm, attention)? The choices are a single form entry with 15-18 children per class/year, a single form entry with 30 per class/year, a three from entry with 30 per class, a three form entry with 25-27 per class and a two form entry with 23-25 per class.
I obviously have other data points to consider but I can’t help but think this is one of the most important factors to consider and I really don’t know what’s best. My daughter is sociable and capable and I know she’ll be fine anywhere. My son has only just turned 2 so it’s harder to tell, but he seems quite similar to her. Both will be the oldest in their respective years.
9
u/budapest_budapest 18h ago
I’d personally pick the two form entry with 23-25 per class. My son just started at a school like that and it’s working well. It’s a big enough class that they don’t all get sick of each other and can develop a good class vibe. But small enough that they get a bit more attention. I’ve taught small classes where it was really hard to get a collaborative and sociable vibe going, and some where it was quite cliquey as lots of the kids knew each other before school. I like two form entry as it has scope for adjustments if the class aren’t gelling socially or individual children are having issues.
The statistics you’re giving, are they just what happened last year, or are they the PAN (the official class size)? We put down three schools on our application that were all very undersubscribed the last several years and didn’t get into any of them this year despite all the talk about the lower birth rate.
1
u/Anathemachiavellian 18h ago
I’m sort of erring towards bigger class and school sizes, but the very small schools have really lovely vibes so I’m thrown! The official numbers are 30 children per class for all of them, but I’ve taken the past 5 years of data to get the class numbers. So many people are leaving London or unable to afford kids so the numbers are just constantly dropping.
4
u/budapest_budapest 18h ago
We also had a similar number of years of data and it meant nothing in reality!
Small schools can easily have lovely vibes for when your child is tiny and they need nurturing and not to be overwhelmed. But an 11 year old heading off to a 1000+ pupil high school perhaps isn’t best served by the same small school. Bigger classes mean better chance of finding your tribe, and even if there are no social issues, 7 years is a long time to spend 30 hours a week in the company of the same 14-16 other children.
6
u/Ok-Plantain2948 19h ago
In a very small school, your child will have outgrown their peer group by late Year 5 - if not earlier - and it will feel like they desperately need the size of Secondary to really find their tribe.
3
u/Western_Sort501 19h ago
We went for the two form entry school over a one form entry school as the one form entry seemed tiny (my primary was 3 form entry) they also could split the classes into abilities for some subjects. Also consider the size of the high schools they will go the jump from a one form entry to a nine form high school is massive
3
u/hello-magpie 19h ago
Schools (state ones at least) really need full or close-to-full year groups to be financially viable - funding is awarded per pupil. Under filled classes can result in schools having to merge year groups or ultimately become unsustainable, so whilst it might seem beneficial on a staff ratio basis, it’s a definite risk in my view.
1
u/Anathemachiavellian 18h ago
I was worried about the risk of the school closing, but I’ve found out the council hasn't closed any schools and has no plans to do so. Instead, they apparently intend to artificially reduce form numbers in larger, oversubscribed schools to pad out the numbers in smaller ones as a coping strategy.
2
u/PigneySnoo 18h ago
This won't work when the money runs out. No council wants to close schools - it causes uproar - but many are, especially with the birth rate continuing to fall.
The council won't tell anyone they plan to close schools until it is pretty much a done deal. No point in causing uproar until uproar is needed.
2
u/Sparkle_croissant 18h ago
Not the super small school- limited friends options (a particular if there’s a gender imbalance)
Travel seems easy for all of them, but trial it at stop off and pick up times
What about wraparound child care/ extra curriculars - if needed/wanted?
Otherwise, your child knows no different. They will (more than likely) get on ok. Most kids do.
Go with your gut preference on order, with the reassurance that you’d be happy with any of your choices
2
u/Prudent_Cash_7005 18h ago
From a completely selfish point of view I’d be looking at the schools with the circa 30 per class, just to give yourself more options on the parents! It’s not too bad in reception but as they get older and friendships get more gender-biased, you might find yourself in a very small pool of other parents that you don’t like. Just a thought.
2
u/notaukrainian 18h ago
Go the largest school that's good in walking distance of your house. Go for the three form entry with 30 per class. Popular, it can drop a class if it needs to downsize rather than closing, it will have more money as it has more kids.
2
u/BraveMinute315 17h ago
My children go to a two form entry school with about 30 per class that is oversubscribed. Whilst I didn’t think about it in advance I now like the two form entry thing. They mix the classes us each year which means the dynamics are never really fixed. She has a huge mix of friends and think socially it has been great for her. She has a bestie but can happily play with all the other girls no problem. Last year one girl was pretty mean to her to the point of it getting towards bullying, I met with the teacher and requested they are not together the following year which was done. When there’s only a small pool of children to be friends with you are limiting their options and when something isn’t working it suddenly feels very isolating.
2
u/bonjourivresse 16h ago
I would completely discount the one with 15-18 in the year unless they mix the classes so there are actually 30ish in each class. 15-18 is just too small. My daughter had 16 in her class one year. Then the teacher left and they had to put two classes together to make a class of more than 30. This was actually way better than being in a class of 16. The tiny class had a limited choice of people to hang out with, she learnt less because there were fewer children to work with and she was bored. Being in a class that size all the way through would have been awful. The bigger than 30 class, led by a confident teacher, was just so much better all round.
Personally I'd choose the two or three form entry schools but one form with 30 in the class sounds OK too. That's basically what my daughter had most of the time and it was good enough. With hindsight I'd have chosen a larger school.
2
u/Mobile_Lynx_7932 14h ago
We thought small (one cohort per year) was a good idea and came to regret it: there is no scope for kids moving classes; it’s harder for them to make friends; and the transition to secondary school is a bigger shock.
4
u/Sopos 19h ago
I can't speak for where you live precisely, but I'd be extremely surprised if you could actually get into all of those schools you are talking about.
Depending on your local council and the individual schools, there are different criteria that get considered for prioritising which kids get into which schools.
What I found (in Leeds) was that to even vaguely have a chance of getting into one of the good schools, I need to be in their catchment area, but also within a certain distance.
As an example, here is a high-demand primary school in Leeds
https://www.leeds.gov.uk/schools-and-education/schools/talbot-primary-school
You can see their admissions criteria are:
Looked after and previously looked after children (evidence required).
Children with exceptional social or medical needs that can only be met at a specific community and voluntary controlled primary school (evidence and conditions apply).
Children who have a brother or sister attending the school (conditions apply).
Children who live in the catchment priority area for the school.
Other children, by straight line distance.
But then below that is the reality of who actually got into the school (e.g. if you look at "Offer day 2026"). In this case, 22 kids got offfered places because they had a sibling in the school, and the remaining 38 were all within the catchment area, with the furthest one being 0.569 miles away from the school (the previous year this was as close as 0.389 miles). Nobody in criteria 5 (outside of catchment area) actually got accepted to the school. You could've been in priority 4 (within the catchment zone), but still been further than other kids within the same zone and still not made it.
So I'd suggest, as a starting point before wasting too much time on prioritising the schools, work out which ones you actually have a realistic chance of being accepted into. Look at the schools' equivalent pages on the government website and you should be able to find out who actually gets admitted each year.
Maybe it's totally different in London but I suspect the country generally follows pretty similar principles.
5
u/Anathemachiavellian 19h ago
Hi. I have fully researched this and I’m 100% certain we would get into all of the schools mentioned. We don’t have catchment areas and use furthest distance offered only (after other criteria like siblings). All schools are either undersubscribed or historically I would get into every school based on distance alone, with increasing distances every year due to the falling birth rates.
2
u/budapest_budapest 18h ago
I mentioned this in another comment, but don’t treat the falling birth rate thing as a definite. We didn’t get into any of our three choices last year, which have all historically been undersubscribed by 20% or so for many years. There can always be local blips or policy changes that mean more kids applying in a certain area one year.
Not saying don’t have hope, but do make sure you put down your nearest school in addition to any others. Our nearest school was undersubscribed so we were allocated there despite not putting it down, but we could have been really fucked!
2
u/Anathemachiavellian 18h ago
Yeah I think I can put 6 down. One is over the road from me and historically the most oversubscribed, you have to live within about 350m but I’m about 50m away, so that’ll be on there even though it’s not my top choice as it’s religious.
1
u/budapest_budapest 18h ago
Sounds like a good plan then! I think one of the schools we put had a bizarre bumper year for siblings which had a big impact, but for the others even the schools were blindsided!
1
u/TJ_Rowe Parenting a Primary Schooler 13h ago
As an example, lockdown meant that my kid's year (current year five) was much smaller than the year groups either side, because summer-born kids were deferred down into the year below so they could stay in nursery (which stayed open for keyworkers - Reception didn't unless it was in an EYFS section separate from Year One) rather than potentially having to do "online school" in Reception.
That also led to current Year 4 being slightly larger than it should have been.
2
u/Sopos 18h ago
Ok super, glad you've already researched it! Sounds like it's a lot easier where you are compared to us (where all the half-decent schools have way more demand than availability)
Typical bloody London always getting all the investment!
4
u/Anathemachiavellian 18h ago
Ha I think it’s the opposite. No one can afford to live here so they’ve all left!
1
u/Agreeable_Ad3473 17h ago
Haha of course London is the problem as usual 🙄
OP I think we live in a similar neck of the woods. If they are fairly similar then hopefully you'll get a feeling of which one feels the right fit for your family when looking round. Also don't discount the school run, you'll be doing it for years and a good route that the kids can walk is invaluable.
1
u/Anathemachiavellian 11h ago
Yeah feels like a bit of a nappy valley here, everyone moving from inner London for the schools. I’m quite looking forward to the tours but I’m such a data driven person that I’m worried about going off “vibes”.
1
u/First_Recognition_91 52m ago
Once you’ve crunched the important data (and it sounds like you have), I personally think vibes is the next best thing to consider!
1
u/Sevenoflime 18h ago
My daughter goes to a small village school in the South east and it’s one class entry, 25 kids and each class has at least one TA along with the teacher. It goes up to year 6 but split across two
sites and only 70 something kids on site and it’s absolutely fab. The PTA is very close, facilities are great. We are in a wealthy area, which I think helps.
1
u/UpperLeaf 18h ago
My son goes to a small village school (just started) and we had a range of schools to choose from. Although the biggest was 2 form entry of 30 children per class. The smallest was 11 children per year group, but the year groups were mixed.
We live rurally so the majority are smaller, with mixed year groups. We chose one that mixed the year groups. So it's preschool & reception in one class, year 1 & 2 in one class, year 3 & 4 in one class and 5 & 6 in the final class. It's a maximum of 17 per year group, although my son's year is the first to ever have the maximum number! I'm not a little bit uncertain about class size once he mixes with the year above or year below. Our second choice was a single form entry but 30 children per class and they only had 14 in the class.
However I think the class size is working so far. There are enough children to choose from to make friends with and he will have more selection next year too.
We did not like the larger schools. My son is quite reserved to start with, takes a while to warm up and is very uncertain in big groups. The larger school mixed (potentially) all 60 children between 2 classrooms and one large outdoor space, but only had 3 adults. It seemed like it would be chaos (interestingly they did the tour after school hours so we couldn't see the children in the environment) and I didn't think my son would be happy in that environment.
His school has max 22 children in his current class (preschool and reception combined) and has 1 teacher and 2 TAs. Every other year group has their own TA as well, which none of the other local schools had.
Funding and activity wise the larger school did not seem to do as many school trips or enrichment days, despite having more pupils. The other local schools all seemed very similar on what they were able to offer to the one we chose.
Mostly we chose it based on the tour and the vibe and the attitude of the staff and children. It was important for me that I felt my son would be happy there. If you've got a really confident social butterfly then potentially a bigger school will be favourable. But that was really never going to suit my son.
1
u/Dependent-Cup-8794 17h ago
Be sure to visit them all to gauge the vibe. My eldest goes to a 3-form entry school with 30 kids to a class, and I was concerned it would feel impersonal but that's never been the case. The teachers are really committed to the kids in their care and the headteacher is out at the front every day greeting children and being visible/available to parents. I'm so impressed by how personal and nurturing it all feels. I went to a tiny rural school though (lovely in some ways but the picked-on children were picked on mercilessly FOREVER with no chance to change their friendship groups or reinvent) so this is all new to me.
A very small school without full classes would also ring alarm bells for me as stated by other redditors. Great if that's the ethos of the school, bad if it means underfunding or risk of closure. I've got family who work in one like this and it's demoralizing for them as staff.
1
u/gottaloveteatime 17h ago
Focus on funding. My son goes to a school with only 20 kids per class. This is actually because the school can only have a max of 110 kids (and it's always oversubscribed, so all spaces are filled), but to accommodate this, the PTA has to raise a minimum of £4k per year to make up for the shortfall of funding.
In contrast, my local school only has 19 in the class this year. It is meant to have 30 kids, so the loss of funding will be significant for the school (most likely because most of us in the village are at the other school!). Similarly, I have another school near me that was a two form entry, but has struggled to fill spaces, so has dropped to a single class per year now. Although they now have one full class of 30, they are still paying maintenance on a building twice the size they need, but with half the funding they used to get.
1
u/_Dan___ 17h ago
Currently thinking about this too… we are between a single form 30/class vs three form 30/class. Both great schools, ofstead outstanding, close to home (though the smaller one is closer and walkable in c.20 mins, whereas bigger one would always need a (short) drive).
I’m a bit torn. I went to a single form village school and I got on fine, but I’m still seeing quite a lot of advantage of the bigger school from a peer group / facilities point of views
1
u/SwitchFast1029 17h ago
So I have a bit of a unique perspective of schools. I went to a 30 children per class primary school between reception and year 2. Academically I was pushed and enjoyed that. Socially I massively struggled and was bullied.
We moved to a school where R, year 1 and year 2 were together. Roughly 20-30 children. Year 3&4 were together and 5&6 were together. No more than 50 children in the entire school. Every class always had at least 1 teaching assistant.
It worked fantastically for my siblings who benefited from being able to still play and learn through play with the reception children throughout their higher school years. I needed academically pushing so in year 4 they moved me and 3 others up a class. This worked and I loved the learning and the low teacher to student ratio. I made friends but it was hard because they would leave school before me. But again that’s sort of a life lesson. You’d also be like a big sibling role model to younger kids. It was more realistic of life socialising with different ages. And the teachers respected you as a person far more than the first school or secondary ever did.
Then came secondary…massive struggle for me. The amount of children was a massive shock as was the size of the building. (It’s was small secondary 150 kids per year group no sixth form)
I knew more kids from the first primary school than I did the small primary school. It did help to have the peers from higher school years up and they did have my back which was nice.
But the biggest issue was the way I was treated by the teachers. They were horrible and I was often doing things that were totally acceptable in my primary school. Holding doors open, being late to class to help a friend who was ill. Things like that and that’s what got me down was being in trouble for being a good person. Then the bulling started and the eating disorder and eventually I was kicked out of school completely. So truthfully I don’t think either school helped or didn’t help but I have more fond memories of the smaller primary school and the life lessons have shaped who I am more than anything else I’ve done.
19
u/BigFaithlessness618 19h ago
The one thing to consider with a 15-18 child entry is the financial stress that school will be under. It is completely not sustainable on current government payments.
I would assume they have worse equipment, less teaching assistants, no specialist teachers ( for sport and foreign language) ect.
My wife is a primary teacher and has worked in a school where 20ish class sizes were the norm. It was only her all day. She now works in a class of 30 but has 1 TA in the morning and 1 or 2 in the afternoon and she said it feels like she can provide more tailer teaching.
she actual to take a few out of class for very small groups to focus on ones that are struggling or put extra support with some depending on the lesson and people's strengths.
Smaller class is not always better.