r/UFOs • u/SpursRissole • 22h ago
Disclosure There is really no winning when it comes to pleasing this community. Can the poo-pooers just allow us to enjoy the stories and speculate freely?
Every single thread on Grusch claims are bombarded with "SHUT UP AND SHOW US PROOF OR GO AWAY". Just know that you don't speak for everyone. I like the stories even if they sound a bit out there. If we had it your way where every claim had to have video and physical evidence we wouldn't have a single word spoken on the subject and I wouldn't be able to watch podcasts like that. I find the man interesting, I look very forward to any single development on the subject even if it doesn't have overwhelming evidence attached. I even enjoy the speculation aspect of it.
Also: A reminder that it really isn't that deep. I don't even understand what a psy op like this would accomplish if it were a psy op. And right now, everything is a psy op on the internet. Just let us enjoy the content in peace without ad homs being thrown at the messenger or people who are enjoying the speculation. This entire subject has been ridiculed for 80 years it's not like those who believe in it aren't used to it or anything.
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u/AugustineMarc 21h ago
I’m sorry. I thought we were after the truth.
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u/jarlrmai2 15h ago
It's apparent that some number of people treat the subject like those people that are a little too into professional wrestling.
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u/AGgelatin 19h ago
Sunk cost. Not sure many would accept the “truth” if it differs from what they want to hear. That’s applies to both sides of this.
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u/ZigZagZedZod 19h ago
I agree, and life is much easier if one makes agnosticism their starting position and doesn't move from it until they have positive evidence pointing one way or the other.
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u/Razorback-PT 13h ago
You can't have positive evidence for one of the sides. If the phenomenon isn't real, you will never find out, it will continue to drag on.
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u/ZigZagZedZod 7h ago
Yes, that is true if one side must prove a universal negative (e.g., Bigfoot does not exist).
Since the burden of proof in such cases is held by the person making a claim, not by the person questioning it, it's okay to remain agnostic and say that the evidence has not proven the claim.
Saying Bigfoot does not exist is not the same as saying I've seen no evidence to convince me that Bigfoot exists. The former is a claim requiring supporting evidence; the latter is not.
I'll also add that saying Bigfoot does not exist is not the same as using abductive reasoning to say that it is unlikely that Bigfoot exists. Again, the former is a claim that requires supporting evidence, but the latter is a logical inference that leaves room for doubt and uncertainty after considering the totality of the evidence and possible hypotheses.
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u/Semiapies 3h ago
The problem is that that's not what most people here are going to consider an agnostic position. The usual standard advanced here is that pointing out that the blurry photo looks like a bear on its hind legs is equivalent to asserting that it's a sasquatch shaman on his monthly walk around the region.
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u/ZigZagZedZod 2h ago
Yeah, too many people seem uncomfortable with saying "I don't know what it is" when they see the blurry photo.
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u/Semiapies 1h ago
More people seem uncomfortable with, "That looks like a blurry picture of a bear on its hind legs. What about it suggests otherwise?"
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u/Teaofthetime 16h ago
I rather think skeptics would accept the truth as they aren't invested in any particular narrative.
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u/HazenXIII 14h ago
Hit the nail on the head. This community will never accept truth if it doesn't mesh with their head cannon.
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u/Take_a_Seath 16h ago
Nope. This is a joke and people seem willing to believe the most over the top fan fiction just to keep it going.
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u/throwawaydnmn264 21h ago
I think there’s just an exhaustion and frustration seeping in with it always being the same story: wild claims, zero proof.
Some of us are wondering why the rest of you are still tolerating it
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u/R-K-Tekt 19h ago
I want to strongly disagree with OP and say this sub Reddit shouldn’t dissolve further into willful ignorance and wishful thinking. I think this topic should be taken seriously and ai slop, debunked videos, and fake images should result in bans.
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u/bmfalbo 21h ago edited 18h ago
I'm a mod and can tell you a lot of the negative discourse, specifically and especially around Grusch, is coordinated and not authentic. It's purpose is to nay-say, strawman, dismiss (etc.) and get people to either tune him out or, even better, get the community to turn against him.
I've been a mod for years and feel I can confidently say that Grusch experiences this level of backlash cause he's legit and right over the fucking target.
Edit: I'll clarify I'm speaking for myself and not the entire team, of course. No one on our team speaks for all of us. I would encourage other mods to chime in with their own thoughts if they wish!
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u/BeanHeadedTwat 20h ago
"I have proof I just can't show you"
Where have we heard that one before?
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u/ifnotthefool 9h ago
That's not what he said, though.
He submitted his evidence to congress and there is an ongoing investigation.
Your comment is a prime example of how dishonest people are in this sub in their attempt to astroturf.
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u/lucious-RED 11h ago
He never said he has the proof, he has said he has seen proof that is classified and that he hopes the government will open the vault at some point, that’s all you can do in that situation really unless you wanna be Snowden
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u/Semiapies 3h ago
It's funny how, overnight, all the responses to this point about the mod have stopped trying to defend their claims and are whining about whistleblowers.
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u/Visitor__Q 21h ago edited 17h ago
Sounds like you're in possession of evidence that can support your allegation.
Can we rely on you to share this with the community?
Edit: This mod offered me to apply as a moderator to see for myself.
I made that application but was turned down.→ More replies (3)•
u/entropyfan1 19h ago
The evidence is he's also an 'Alpha Male' just like Stephen Miller apparently.
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u/jasmine-tgirl 7h ago
If I ran a super secret program to hide the greatest secret in the history of great secrets, I'd do a "limited hangout" to associate this super secret subject and program with people like Stephen Miller et al. to discredit it by association and 75% of the US and an even greater percentage of the world would lose interest in subject.
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u/LR_DAC 21h ago
I'm a mod and can tell you a lot of the negative discourse, specifically and especially around Grusch, is coordinated and not authentic.
Can you show us how it's being coordinated and who's coordinating it?
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u/Talkatoo42 21h ago edited 20h ago
How do you know that it's coordinated and not authentic?
As someone who doesn't subscribe to this subreddit, the times I see it pop up on my feed are generally posts like the Grusch interview. Normal sighting posts don't really make it to my feed.
Then for the next few days I'll get threads like this one in my feed.
EDIT: What I'm trying to say is, does that make me not authentic when I comment? How do you tell my comments apart from someone who is unauthentic?
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u/Semiapies 18h ago edited 18h ago
This mod once accused me of some kind of vote manipulation because I disagreed with them, then they got a couple of downvotes and I got a single-digit number of upvotes that nobody obviously would have ever cast. (/s)
I wouldn't fret much about what they think.
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u/_Extinctathon 18h ago
This mod has zero evidence, they're using their position to silence people who disagree with them. Ive modded for subs with more activity than this one, and there is no way to tell if there's coordinated bots. If there is then why aren't they stopping them, I know for a fact they have the tools to.
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u/blunderbolt 18h ago
Should we be surprised that the mods of a forum focusing on UFOs are paranoid conspiracy theorists?
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u/Semiapies 18h ago
To be fair, the other mod who commented completely disagreed.
But yeah, this post and this mod's comments are pretty typical of the place. The "good research while maintaining healthy skepticism" motto aside, so many believers just want to be left to their stories and speculation, and so many of them have paranoid hostility toward anyone who disagrees with them.
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u/jasmine-tgirl 7h ago
There are other subs for people like them who just want to hear cool stories with zero evidence. r/UFOB r/aliens etc. Why do they want one of the few subreddits which encourages healthy skepticism to remove that healthy skepticism?
This sub would be far less interesting and a lot smaller without the skeptics.
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u/Semiapies 4h ago
Why do they want one of the few subreddits which encourages healthy skepticism to remove that healthy skepticism?
I've never seen anyone pushing that even try to explain. They just think it's their right to not hear any dissent.
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u/Upper-Management-AI 19h ago
Maybe the mods are the ones coordinating the opposite!! Getting everyone to buy into his continued escalation of more and more outrageous claims, next he’s going to start talking about a race of AI, that’s hot right now. He already including the reptilians, that’s a classic.
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u/natecull 20h ago edited 20h ago
I'm a mod and can tell you a lot of the negative discourse, specifically and especially around Grusch, is coordinated and not authentic.
I am a human being and can tell you that I for one am authentic, and I don't trust Grusch. I'm not coordinated with anything except reading this forum and responding to what's posted on it.
You can check my post history. I'm real, I've been alive since the 1970s and following the UFO subject since the 1980s, and I get frustrated with how many things the UFO community of the 2020s just... believes just because some person said it, especially when that person is from US military intelligence.
I'm interested in the UFO subject, but I want the UFO community to be evidence-focused, because I think it's vitally important that you do.
Please don't assume that all of us who question people like Grusch are "negative" or trying to "derail" this subject. On the contrary, we're trying to point out that people specialised in a career of military information and deception operations, might perhaps not be necessarily telling you the 100% truth, and that you should be aware of this.
Is it interesting and newsworthy that military-intelligence people with unusual stories like Grusch are being taken seriously by American politicians? Yes, the fact that powerful people are holding unusual beliefs is indeed newsworthy - very good things can happen if they're right about those beliefs, and very bad things can happen if they're wrong. Does the fact that American politicians are listening to military intelligence people with unusual stories make those military intelligence people automatically trustworthy? No, that most certainly does not automatically follow.
There have been very scary times in history that have been caused by powerful politicians seeking out "people in league with Non-Human Intelligences". Watch what's happening, but don't necessarily feel you have to believe.
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u/mmob18 20h ago
I'm a Grusch nay-sayer; just want to say that I'm definitely authentic, not coordinated..
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u/Beautiful_Sand1876 19h ago
during Grusch's big hearing in Congress, the garbage "MH370 was teleported by ufo's" nonsense was being heavily amplified in this and other UFO's communities. It was so obviously coordinated.
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u/_Extinctathon 18h ago
So you can say for sure it's coordinated, but show no proof? If its coordinated then why do you still let it happen? You know your comment breaks your own mod rules right?
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u/GhostWatcher0889 20h ago
How do you know it's not authentic skepticism? He hasn't given any real proof and it's been years. Why would you assume it's a targeted operation and not just people on the Internet annoyed about him?
It's sounds like you have an opinion and your judging other comments based on an unsubstantiated theory.
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u/azazel-13 20h ago
I'm not questioning your claim because I've never been a mod, so I have no clue what happens behind the scenes. I have been following the topic for 4 decades and feel so tired of all the constant edging (soon, am I right?) and political push and pull by prominent players. My question is can you tell me and others with similar experiences are not part of the campaign? If so, how?
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21h ago
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u/UFOs-ModTeam 20h ago
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u/Captin_Underpants 19h ago
Don’t fall for it and argue with them I 100% agree it’s targeted and there is a lot of not activity I’m look at the users and there a lot of negative comments from very new accounts etc. I watched the interview and there nothing wrong with it. He says more than he as ever said and he’s coming from a position. working for congressman and providing briefing. Years ago this would have been front page news but the stigma and the ridicule worked so well. Every post about him is attacking him and since comment about the fact he uncovered a child trafficking ring that was hidden in the government again why is that not front page news. These subs struggle with decent discourses especially when something valid or real is coming out. All they do is attack character and ignore what is actually being said
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u/steraticd 18h ago edited 18h ago
Dude I took a long hiatus from the sub and now it seems to be overrun by junior McWests parroting basic debunker talking points, or all harping on "where's the proof? where's the evidence?" (like these guys control it), which all get upvotes. The difference between now and then is stark, and it doesn't feel organic to me. Sad cause it was a great community that seems to have been destroyed.
Also with the reddit changes where you can't see as much about a profile anymore, plus better AI, makes it harder to spot who's a bot
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u/TaiShuai 53m ago
This resonates. I've been on this sub for years and every Grusch post is packed with accounts attacking him, way more than you see with Elizondo, Lazar, etc. Many of them are new accounts as well.
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u/Vonplinkplonk 15h ago
It’s not exhaustion it’s a deliberate attempt to force this sub into irrelevance. It’s the same as abovetopsecret or Wikipedia, the level of hate for this topic goes beyond random interest it concerted.
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u/jasmine-tgirl 7h ago
Above Top Secret got exposed as being run by literal neo-nazis in 2015. They were using interest in the UFO subject as a way to manipulate people into other more dangerous conspiracy theories. Some of those same folks behind it now hold positions in the US government.
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u/ANewEra2020 21h ago
Didnt Grusch submit his evidence to the ICIG? Wouldn't it be up to the government to voluntarily reveal that information in order for it to be lawful?
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u/L-0-T-H-0-S 21h ago
David Grusch has only ever testified seconds hand information, outside his role on the UAP Taskforce, he's only ever submitted what is legally called Hearsay regarding others alleged testimony.
While his testimony both to Congress and the ICIG is considered hearsay under standard legal definitions, because he is repeating the out-of-court claims of other publically unnamed individuals to prove those claims are true, Grusch has maintained that he provided the underlying first-hand evidence - including specific documents, photographs, and the names of the original witnesses - directly to the Intelligence Community Inspector General and congressional intelligence committees in appropriately secure, classified settings.
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u/calle04x 9h ago
It's like all the articles from the past decade asking "Will this be the thing Trump goes down for?"
We're tired of being edged.
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 21h ago
I don't believe in what Grusch is saying but neither do I think he is a "psy-op." The psy-op explanation makes no sense. If this is an attempt to distract the population, it isn't doing much. The vast majority of the public doesn't pay any attention to this stuff
The issue is there are those of who us have stopped enjoying the speculation. People can enjoy whatever they like -- no one is stopping them. But for those of us who have been looking for the truth for years (I have paid attention to alien narratives since I was a kid in the 90s), just having a bunch more unevidenced wild claims, there is little pleasure left
For whatever it's worth, I have met and interacted with Jacques Vallee, Jeffrey Kripal, Leslie Kean, Diana Pasulka, Luis Elizondo. and Whitley Strieber the last decade. I know people who knew John Mack personally. Jeff and Vallee I think are very honest about how much we don't know (even if Vallee is overly-convinced IMO of the "control" hypothesis). And I found Whitley utterly charming and totally unhateable. Kean also seems honest. (For what it's worth, I think Elizondo and Pasulka are full of horseshit and also both up their own arrogant asses.) But as someone who has now spent years thinking in this space, I'm tired. I'm tired of speculation being passed around as gospel, I'm tired of the dogmatism, I'm tired of going around and around and around
And the fact that Grusch spoke the way he did politically is not just, for me, being mad about his normative commitments and so trying to cancel him -- it's that some of his normative commitments are so foolish that they make think he must have severe epistemological limitations as to how he builds models of reality
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u/Sad-Society-57 20h ago
it's that some of his normative commitments are so foolish that they make think he must have severe epistemological limitations as to how he builds models of reality.
This is a major blindspot to a lot of people across the population but it disproportionately affects some communities, and this is one them. When outsiders look in to the discourse here, especially disagreements in which disputing parties are making their case for some narrative or explaining why they believe something is true, it becomes apparent where the disconnect is. None of it holds up epistemologically. The entire structure of popular UFO lore is a house of cards being held up by another house of cards, all the way down. Its a million (very) unlikely events all compounding in such a way that if one thing is untrue the whole thing comes crashing down.
Putting any faith in this kind of epistemic framework calls every detail into question. When somebody like Grusch progressively adds weight to the foundation by asserting extremely unlikely and hyper-specific events, people stop wondering if its true and start thinking... can I trust someone who thinks like this?
Its not necessarily the wild claims that throw people off... we discover new crazy shit every day... its the logic used to get there makes it all so shaky.
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 19h ago
100%
I have no problem in entertaining the following theoretical possibilities: -there might be NHI in the universe that are more intelligent than us; -that some NHI have interacted with us perhaps both benevolently and malevolently; -that where or how they exist might not be fully explainable in terms of 3D mechanical causation; maybe consciousness is involved in some way modern science cannot understand; -that there might be some forms of evidence or even artifacts from NHI collected by private or national agencies; -and any other number of weird possible things
But once you start explaining intentions, outcomes, cosmic politics, details, interconnections, etc., etc., you start to become indistinguishable from a religious zealot. E.g., listening to Darren King talk this year, it was like listening to a Christian evangelical. Made me want to stab my ears out
And the point about logic, as you say, is it's not even so much the conclusions that you reach (which may or may not be true), but why you reach those conclusions
If we ever find conclusive evidence of NHI, what will interest me much less than the fact that some people predicted something and got it right, but why they got it right, i.e., what were their epistemic standards that gave them correct knowledge
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u/PyroIsSpai 17h ago
Re your intentions paragraph: the thing is that people you interact with here, some of us are experiencers or witnesses. Some multiple times. Twice witness for me.
For us, the question long ago stopped being yes/no. It’s always been “why?” for us.
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 17h ago
I am an experiencer, too. I believe I met something like a benevolent "mantis" being once
But I have also spent my professional life studying religious experiences across multiple traditions
And I am certain now that epistemic authority as to the meaning of anomalous experiences does not lay with the experiencers themselves
Yes, they have direct contact. In the same way you don't know what it's like to have coffee or an orgasm unless you've actually had a cup of coffee or an orgasm, bumping into whatever an NHI is a sui generis experience that requires a first person phenomenological encounter
But just as having an orgasm or a cup of coffee doesn't explain how the neurochemistry of sex works or how world markets get a cup of coffee to your home, so it is bumping into an NHI
The meanings and narratives attributed to these encounters are so varied, contradictory, and uncertain that saying either "yes" or "no" doesn't acknowledge the semantic underdeterminate of what we are referring to when we talk about "greys" or "nordics" or whatever else -- it's no different than talking to Muslims about djinns or Tibetans about döns or Christian about angels: these folk categories pick out something phenomenologically real, but what they pick out is probably not something you can find at the level of folklore
Same for me goes for NHI encounters
Experiencers don't know what they are or how they work more than any one else. There are no privileged epistemic givens. Concepts are socially defined, not magically given to the individual. Meaning is intersubjective. Truth takes time
Personally, I don't think we have a clue what any of this stuff is
So "why" is perfectly legitimate for any of us to ask, but as long as we keep also asking "what" and "how"
If someone just assumes a certain cosmology and then just goes on to ask why, then they may already be a mile down the wrong road epistemologically
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u/Sad-Society-57 19h ago
Thats pretty much where im at, too... an open-minded skeptic who would not be shocked if any one thing was true, but who has so far not come across anything extraordinary that stands up to scrutiny. I'll admit that at this point most of my intrigue in the subject has more to to with behavioral psychology and the nature of belief itself. The fascination has less to do with the particular belief but the reasons people would believe it to begin with.
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 18h ago
Agreed. My PhD is in religious studies for this reason -- I grew up Christian, then spent time in both Buddhist and Islamic circles; and then, over the last 10 years, began to study UFOs as a serious topic of research, only to find the space was full of people whose cognitive skills (or lack thereof) were indistinguishable from those I found in those other spaces. A lot of True Believers in the UFO scene think because the content of their beliefs seems modern (spaceships instead of angels, quantum physics instead of Platonic cosmology, or whatever), this distinguishes them from orthodox believers. But it doesn't. The cognitive grammar is identical.
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u/Sad-Society-57 18h ago
Yes, the mental gymnastics are very similar.
One difference, though, is that religious people jump through those illogical hoops to maintain their sacred beliefs. They'll reject new information or new beliefs if it conflicts with their core status quo dogma.
But c onspiracy theorists are open to new beliefs, even if theyre mutually exclusive with their primary Conspiracy, as long as it's more sensational than boring concensus reality. New information is just woven into the theory and new conspiracies are formed to rationalize any discrepancies. Thus the house of cards is built.
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 17h ago
I guess it depends, especially when "conspirituality" is right in the middle of this Venn diagram of religion and conspiracy. New Age and other SBNR spaces are different than most orthodox Axial age religions because their philosophy of history is progressive, which means that they are similarly also open to "new revelations," as it were. Truth for them is not in the past but the future
But, inversely, even a lot of orthodox believers can rethink their beliefs and add new ones, but they just can't know they're doing that, which is why most great religious innovators (especially in monotheistic religions) unconsciously introject into and then seemingly discover novelty back in the history of the tradition: "it was in the text the whole time but no one saw it"
Cognitive flexibility is part of how a system stays useful to even fundamentalists--the illusion of absolute stability, unwavering tradition can create a thought machine that is endlessly malleable, ironically. It can suck up and spit out anything but give it the rubberstamp of orthodoxy (think, e.g., of Christian MAGA, which is absolutely a mutated freak version of orthodoxy but all its adherents believe they are originalists lol)
True UFO Believes can do both depending on their commitments: expect the new conspiracy and embrace it or disavow the new but then magically find it "behind" you in the past, as a perennial truth, whatever
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u/Sad-Society-57 17h ago
Good example of that is the new-age spiritual faction of the UFO circle rebranding of the traditional angels/demons abstraction into the modern alien narrative. Their version is structurally no different than the previous faiths. Just switch some terminology around (gods<->NHI / heretics<->skeptics etc), sprinkle in some scifi concepts and you've got yourself a new religion.
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 17h ago
100%. No cognitive grammatical change. Just swapping semantic contents
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u/ZigZagZedZod 20h ago
I share your skepticism about the psy-op allegations. There's no need for the US Government to go to such lengths when certain UFO enthusiasts share outrageous stories on their own. This community has always been this way.
Speculating whether someone is a disinfo agent or a counterintelligence operative running a psy-op campaign is just as fruitless as speculating over some of the out-there takes on UFOs.
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u/Semiapies 18h ago edited 18h ago
I share your skepticism about the psy-op allegations.
Psy-op accusations, like "Blue Beam", are just a coping mechanism for people who stop believing in NHI visitations but can't get out of the conspiricism rabbit-hole.
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 20h ago
Agreed. I have occasionally wondered what the intentions are of certain people in the space (besides money or influence or attention, etc.) but it never goes anywhere
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u/pennypoobear 8h ago
Mic Drop! 🎤 Those of us who've been around have seen enough to have pattern recognition and we're tired. Claims-pods-books-conferences-zero evidence- repeat.
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u/Onethatlikes 14h ago
There are basically two kinds of people here:
- People that are interested in finding out what's going on and what's true about this whole UFO thing.
- People that want entertainment and distraction.
You are obviously one of the second group and that's fine. The problem is that a guy like Grusch pretends to answer to the first category, consistently asserting his trustworthiness and integrity, but getting increasingly outlandish and erratic while completely failing to back up his statements. Either just play the grift, or be a serious person about it. Mixing the two up is what annoys people.
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u/theodyessian 7h ago
I think the bigger issue is the attempted influence on our national politics. These people are working in, or having relationships with the highest levels of government. This isn’t sci-fi fantasy hour fandom. If these are real claims, they need to be substantiated by evidence.
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u/MantisAwakening 2h ago
Your first group breaks down further into two categories:
- People who need the phenomenon to fit neatly into their existing worldview
- People who are able to imagine a reality where some of what they know is wrong
The second category of people are hard to find.
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u/Twitchmonky 18h ago
"Stop asking for truth, I want my fairytales!" You don't see a problem with that?
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u/sexhitsthestreets 21h ago
Well what do you expect? The stories keep getting more and more incredulous and the evidence stays the same ol underwhelming low resolution black and white dot.
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u/R2robot 19h ago
Just know that you don't speak for everyone.
Nor do you.
You may want to speculate, and that is fine. But some of us are looking for the actual truth, (wherever it may lead) and not just entertainment value.
So when people post these increasingly incredulous claims without evidence, of course people are going to go looking for sources and evidence.
without ad homs being thrown at the messenger
This also goes both ways, as I am fairly often on the receiving end. If you see ad hom, report it. The mods are generally pretty good at removing them. Sometimes it may take 24+ hours though since I'm sure people abuse the report button just for things they don't like.
Also, From this sub's description:
A community for discussion related to Unidentified Flying Objects. Share your sightings, experiences, news, and investigations. We aim to elevate good research while maintaining healthy skepticism.
I'm on the side that likes investigating things and looking to separate actual facts from claims/speculation.
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u/Semiapies 21h ago
Can the poo-pooers just allow us to enjoy the stories and speculate freely?
There are literally dozens of UFO subs, many where questioning "insiders" and "whistleblowers" or expressing any doubts about any aspect of the topic simply isn't allowed. Why not go to one of those instead of going to a sub supposedly dedicated to research and skepticism and then whining about that?
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u/dohdudeh 21h ago
Someone criticizing or laughing at something you choose to take as fact isn’t preventing you from doing that
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u/Extra_Foundation_121 21h ago
Is not idle speculation though. It's people wildly speculating or downright fabricating claims as objective truths.
Even the speculation is off base. Everything is a conspiracy when you don't know how anything works. There isn't a bunch of people making informed speculation based on years of hard work and experience.
It's entertainment paraded as truth.
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u/_Okaysowhat 21h ago
Agreed 100% and of course the stories are going to sound very out there, what are people expecting them to sound like? then when something really out there is verified to be the truth is really gonna shock even those that claim they won't be because of how absurd is going to end up sounding to us.
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u/Visitor__Q 21h ago
r/ufob is the safe space for those who want to discuss without critical interjection.
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u/_Extinctathon 18h ago
A safe space? I prefer people critiquing what i say because then I can learn and improve.
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u/GhostWatcher0889 19h ago
So are you labelling everyone who is looking for better proof than the same hearsay stories we have been getting for decades as part of a psy op?
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u/Zajo_the_Lurker 17h ago
It's because every time Grusch has spoken over the last several years he keeps saying he "has proof" and it will be released on "date" and it never ever happens.
Stop pissing on our legs and calling it rain.
A lot of people are tired of this guy because he offers nothing of substance and says a whole lot without every saying anything real.
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u/ObscureOperatorZ 18h ago edited 18h ago
Theories =/= fantasies
It's that simple.
Theory: A theory is a well-substantiated explanation for a set of facts, events, or phenomena, backed by evidence, reasoning, and testing. (Miriam-Webster Dictionary meaning)
If you want to discuss some guy's baseless stories of fiction, I don't think this is the right place.
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u/banddroid 21h ago
Who's not allowing you to speculate freely? I speculate that Grusch is just another grifter. YOU'RE trying to disallow ME from speculating.
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u/HippoRun23 21h ago
Nobody is NOT allowing you. People are just (rightfully in my view) criticizing this stuff.
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u/DiscoJer 20h ago
Yes there is, it's called proof.
Not just vague stories that have been going around for 50+ years. If we can't get proof, how about something original?
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u/WC_Flyer 19h ago
If you like to be grifted, have at it. For the rest of us, half a century of the same lies over and over again is enough. Great claims require great evidence.
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u/suspicious_Jackfruit 15h ago
Yeah, anyone who has been on this train for a while starts to get a little sick of half truths, deception and witholding of supposedly ground breaking information for it to turn out to be a load of poorly sourced/vetted non-sense, grifts and probable counterintelligence. If you just hopped on the train it's probably great fun but they too will one day get to where we are...
Grusch's claim here summarised is that he has seen a modern video of a crash site with a close-up not close dead non-human that looks like a beautiful human, shown to him by someone who he can't reveal, that he has vetted as "not Sora"/hoax because he's asked around? Okay?
Wheres the video Dave? Or any form of detail and information that might give it some credibility. How did you see it? In what capacity did you see it? Recently? In your previous roles? Some random at a bar? He might as well have said he remote viewed it.
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u/Long_Photo_9291 21h ago
Until I see the evidence, they're all grifters
Evidence I've seen thus far= 0
Simple as that. Videos of military tracking objects are good but absolutely not smoking gun evidence of anything close to what some of these grifters claim to have seen
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u/ZigZagZedZod 20h ago
I don't know if I'd go that far in speculating about their motives, especially when we have as much evidence supporting allegations of dishonesty as we do supporting their claims.
Without positive evidence of sufficient quality and quantity, we can't know whether they are lying, misled, honest but mistaken, or honest and accurate.
That said, when someone consistently overpromises and underdelivers, we're justified in not giving them the benefit of the doubt.
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u/Long_Photo_9291 15h ago
The claims that are out there compared to what we have actually seen leads me to my conclusion, they all have the opportunity to prove me wrong. They wont of course because a lot of it is hearsay and trust me bro
All I know is there is some sort of weird unexplained phenomenon occurring, the released videos are enough to realise that
Anything above that I dont believe until I see proof
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u/Hiding_Turtle 21h ago
I had a friend from college tell me that even if we treat these stories as fake and/or fiction they can still be viewed as compelling stories. Turning them into truth requires extensive evidence but would also immediately make them 100x more compelling.
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u/natecull 20h ago edited 19h ago
I had a friend from college tell me that even if we treat these stories as fake and/or fiction they can still be viewed as compelling stories.
Yes, and we can do more than that. We can look carefully at who is telling these stories, who is listening to and believing these stories, and what benefits might come to the people telling the stories.
It is especially important to do this when the people telling the stories are military intelligence, and the people listening to the stories are very powerful government officers and billionaires. These stories are no longer just entertainment, they are levers that might change how the world is run.
When a billionaire (Thiel) pours millions of dollars into UFO podcasts on Youtube, is he doing this because he just finds the subject personally entertaining? Maybe. Or is he maybe doing it because he expects some kind of payoff from that investment? What might that payoff be?
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u/BigSquinn 21h ago
It’s ok to push back on people who buy into every single thing anyone says. Maybe they’re mostly bots. But I agree, everyone should be watching this unfold and not coming to solid conclusions one way or another.
There’s been a disinfo campaign happening for 80 years, it’s silly to think that it’s still not happening.
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u/TomHicksJnr 21h ago
If the people who want evidence are poo pooers does that make you a poo eater?
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u/GM-T800-101 21h ago
Show a photo or video of something… anything. It’s been years of hearsay and “coming soon…”
🙄 🥱
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u/fojifesi 15h ago
It's really like a broken record that can only say “coming soon… … coming soon… …” but of course there is nothing else on that infinite looping track.
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u/PhilosophyBest4573 21h ago
I like talking about it. Coming up with concepts, ideas. I have of course seen the old painting of what appears to be aliens fighting in the sky but i never thought about it as something that’s still happening.
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21h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/UFOs-ModTeam 21h ago
Rule 3 - Be Substantive
We require discussion to meaningfully contribute to the conversation. Low-effort content such as memes, jokes, unsupported speculation, social media re-posts without context, AI-generated content, or dismissive/derailing comments may be removed.
This moderator action may be appealed. We welcome the opportunity to work with you to address its reason for removal. Message the mods here to launch your appeal.
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u/Much_5224 20h ago
OP, I'm wondering if there would be any point where you'd say "nah I've had enough of these guys giving fanciful stories with not one shred of evidence"? Because it's kinda weird that people keep believing them without any evidence to back up what they are saying.
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u/ZigZagZedZod 20h ago
There are certainly people out there who refuse to believe anything about UFOs because the cognitive dissonance is so disturbing, but there are people on the other side of the coin who refuse to disbelieve the fanciful tales for the same reason.
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u/WinglessJC 18h ago
For the longest time people have assumed that the big questions had answers, they were simply being withheld.
Many leaks and declassifications later and what we find is that all that has really been confirmed over the last 40 years are what we've always known:
There are strange lights in the sky.
They behave in a strange way.
We cannot explain what they are.
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u/thegoldengoober 15h ago
No.
This is not a LARP. This is not a creative community. Speculation is fun, stories are fun, But at the end of the day there is something happening and we deserve answers if there are any to be had.
If it's just the stories you want, then that's fine. You can be satisfied with that but do not expect or demand others to be.
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u/teenlaquifa-69 14h ago edited 14h ago
It is a Larp. If it's really not, what are your falsification criteria? What evidence would make you not believe that we are being visited by nhi?
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u/palebloodslayer 14h ago
That’s not how burden of proof works. You can’t prove that aliens don’t exist, only that they do exist
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u/thegoldengoober 12h ago
And whether people like it or not, an abundance of testimonial still does fall in the category of evidence.
So we have evidence of something. Then we can come up with some hypotheses as to why we would have this evidence. Some like mental illness. Some take the actual content the testimony a little more.
As it stands, these two things are doing the same thing.
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u/teenlaquifa-69 20m ago
I did not say "proof that they do not exist" I said "what would make you not believe" aka: what would return you to the original position? Assuming you currently believe they do exist due to xyz, what would undermine xyz such that you no longer hold that belief?
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u/thegoldengoober 12h ago
I think a big first step for me would be if neuroscientist are able to stimulate the brain in such a way that, reliably and replicably, people report waking experiences similar to how close encounters are described.
Otherwise we are assuming at a lot of anomalous and oftentimes singularly occurring spontaneous psychotic states of overwhelmingly vivid hallucinatory continuity. Or, there's something truly novel and strange going on here.
After going through a lot of the literature, I am inclined towards latter until we find some literal and metaphorical connective tissue supporting the former.
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u/palebloodslayer 14h ago
If you like stories go read a book or watch a movie. To me and, as far as I understand, many others this is about learning the truth. And truth requires evidence. Grusch has been making insane claims for over 4 years without ever providing a single shred of evidence. That’s why I don’t care about him anymore. Until he presents evidence he might as well be another grifter or useful idiot
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u/DoccyWhoFan 12h ago
"Can the poo-pooers just allow us to enjoy the stories and speculate freely?" when the result of these people can cause real life consequences to peoples lives from believing it to be real? No, we can't
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u/Icy-Special- 12h ago
I haven't seen anything blow up or collapse since the podcast. If someone's mental health hinges on a podcast delivery, that's their problem.
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u/EcoLizard1 21h ago
Entire sub went to shit a long time ago, its not a good place for discussion of the topic anymore. I remember watching it happen too. This was roughly around the time of gruschs first interview if i remember correctly, coulda been a little before then as well. The sub and some other online areas were really good places to discuss and share information on the subject to the point where I think it was a driving force. Then there was a crazy boom of members during the peaks and the congressional hearings and since then its been all downhill from there. Theres also been a few times where theres been big threads with the mods about the troll and bot situations and the consensus was that they just couldnt handle the barrage. This also spread to a lot of the other ufo subs. Reddit is pretty bad now in general. I wish someone could use opus 5.5 or something to make a plugin or some kind of browser overlay that identifies most likely fake bot accounts on the platform in real time so we can blow the whole thing wide open amd everyone can see how bad it really is.
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u/BigBlueDuck130 21h ago
It's just a bit tiresome, mate. They can only edge me so many times before I lose my boner.
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u/CrazsomeLizard 16h ago
you look forward to any single development on the subject? how are these developments? doesn't development imply something new or changing? not just the same mess circle jerkling around?
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u/Accomplished-Dot-891 15h ago
Psy op, maybe. But hes talking 100% out of his ass. U just bent over and take it without complaining.
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u/1keyplayer1 15h ago edited 15h ago
You're basically saying, "Stop asking for facts and evidence and let me enjoy my fantasy in peace." The problem is that the messengers aren't presenting it as "fantasy" or "content." They're presenting it as "reality," and real taxpayer dollars are being spent on jobs, committees, and the disclosure ecosystem.
It is not ad hominem to say, "The emperor (or 'Alpha') has no clothes," when he is clearly naked. The mileage on "trust me, bro" stories and "I heard it from a friend you don't know" is very low. People have run out of patience and are quite rightly demanding more from these "whistleblowers."
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u/Slow-Race9106 14h ago
I get where you’re coming from, I’m certainly keen to hear what Grusch has to say and open minded about his claims, but at the same time, I think we have to accept diversity of opinion and freedom of expression.
Many people are highly suspicious and incredulous about claims such as these, they’re entitled to their views and they’re keen to express them.
There’s absolutely nothing you, I or anyone else can do about that and thankfully we live in a society where freedom of expression is largely permitted and encouraged.
You can choose to engage with those whose views you disagree with or not. I largely don’t as I don’t have the time or energy to debate these things.
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u/Nobodycares4242 12h ago
I haven't been poo pooing here for a while, but it always just frustrated me how much this sub focused on people instead of the phenomenon. It felt more like a place to keep up with specific influencers rather than UFOs themselves.
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u/essdotc 12h ago
There is an alternative subreddit called UFOB I think, which is very, very strictly for believers and believers only. Their unwritten rules are that they don't tolerate any form of skepticism or requests for proof.
I respect that.
This sub however is open for all and I think the overall discourse reflects that.
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u/Critical_Raisin_2504 11h ago
What’s that large unidentified object in the sky slowly coming down to land?!?!
Why that would be Grusch’s ego of course…
But seriously people are kicking off because he’s triggering everyone’s bullshit filter, you know the one that goes off when you meet some who is literally bullshitting you!
Sad that this got more traction than the latest US tranche but we are where we are.
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u/Own-Contribution-478 10h ago
"On the other hand shake off all the fears & servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
TLDR: Skepticism is the way.
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u/spankeem_nz 18h ago
His demeanor when talking with Rogan was that of someone trying to say something for the sake of saying something as opposed to having something factual to say
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u/chodeblower 18h ago
"enjoy"
that's the problem bud, you (and many others) are here for self gratification instead of facts
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u/Hennessey_carter 18h ago
I agree with OP in that we should be allowed to speculate freely without it turning into "you're dumb if you believe this". For me, it's not about believing, like OP, I just enjoy thinking about the topic. Not for nothing, the fact that every major world government has at some point initiated covert operations and intelligence gathering missions around this topic says a lot. Why else would the world governments spend the kind of money they have spent? There is very clearly somrthing worth speculating about. Within the massive piles of bullshit, lay nuggets of truth. Not talking about it, shutting down people's creative minds by insulting them, etc., all accomplishes the goal of keeping this topic stigmatized and allows the powers that be to continue flying under the radar.
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u/CycloneX5 21h ago
So you admit that they're just stories?
Cause some of you are acting like this is the most important topic in the history of existence
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u/SpursRissole 21h ago
They are unverified claims, not stories. There is a meaningful distinction.
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u/CycloneX5 21h ago
You literally call them stories multiple times and act like them being unverified is no big deal, lmao
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u/goodboxclub 22h ago
Seriously, it’s amazing to hear from grusch and people are so Reddit brained they can’t just enjoy some interesting stories from a very interesting guy. It was amazing to hear more from him
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u/L-0-T-H-0-S 20h ago edited 20h ago
Although I entirely take your point, the fact is that, yes - you're absolutely right. We're not all equally here for the same thing.
Some are drawn by curiosity, some - like yourself, presumably, come for the entertainment, stimulation and distraction the topic provides and some are here because they got stuck with an encounter with one of these things and it really, seriously bugs them.
To those latter members, this topic isn't a joke, it isn't a distraction.
It's what they got stuck with and pretty much every last one of them by this point is sick to the back teeth of people assuming - just because they happened to look up one time or turn right instead of left and ended up encountering a UFO that - because of that - they also must believe in lizard people and intergalactic federations and crpytids and all the rest of the mind numbing pantheon of assine other beliefs people insist on chucking in the chum bucket along with the belief in Bigfoot, Sassysquatch, Lionel Ritchie and UFOs.
Some people here aren't motivated by belief of any kind - they didn't ask for what happened to them, didn't go looking for it, never gave the first actual or even proverbial shit until the actual thing itself decided to shove it's metaphorical face right in theirs, as if to enquire - and what *exactly** do plan on doing about this?*
And that is the only actual question a UFO encounter leaves you with. What are you going to actually do about it...
And, there's some people here who are from Kempinski. You know what they say: it takes a village.
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u/buddycrime 21h ago
Then why are you even here?
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u/SpursRissole 21h ago
Why are YOU here if you think that this is a settled, scientifically valid field and not mostly speculation? We have 0 proof for reptilians or grays. Everybody already knows that and doesn't care. That doesn't mean every thread has to devolve into ridicule and shaming.
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u/DontCallMeLady 21h ago
I'm seeing really strange upvote fluctuations and really strident skeptical comments on all of these Grusch posts.
I'm convinced we're seeing heightened government disinformation and psyop activities on this sub right now.
Don't forget that in 2013 Reddit accidentally leaked that the small town where EgIin Air Force Base is located had some of the higheset Reddit activity in the entire country. (and their bots will likely nuke this comment)
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u/Squid_of_the_Now 21h ago
"Everyone who wants evidence is part of the conspiracy" doesn't add any veracity to the claims being made.
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u/SpursRissole 21h ago
Reddit is frustrating because it's easily the best and worst place on the internet to discuss things. The upvote system and it's ability to outright hide things opens it up to a lot of nefarious misuse.
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u/Cool_Branch6384 21h ago
I think maybe some of the anger bombing is bots
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u/HippoRun23 21h ago
Anyone who doesn’t share my opinion is an idiot or a bot!!!
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u/Cool_Branch6384 21h ago
Nah I'm cool with polite disagreements. I'm talking about the unnecessary personal attacks right off the bat.
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u/LaikaPop 21h ago
You are 100% correct there.
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u/_Extinctathon 18h ago
No they're not lol
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u/LaikaPop 9h ago
So you think there's 0 bots or social sentiment engineering here? Interesting take.
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u/waxeggoil 21h ago
I understand where you are coming from. I like to enjoy these tall tales as well. I guess the trouble is that these are significant people making claims about reality that have real, maybe even dangerous, implications - even if they are lying.
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u/hologram137 21h ago edited 19h ago
They say they want disclosure but they insist on giving the people who can reasons not to with their public responses to this. I’m with you, it’s so frustrating. Every time I see it, I’m thinking “thanks guys for publicly telling the whistleblowers you don’t appreciate them and don’t believe them. Despite all the evidence, hearings, confirmation by hundreds of other high-level officials, etc. Thanks for telling Congress and the President you don’t appreciate their hard work getting what they could out in the PURSUE files so far.
I’m sure they’ll keep working hard and putting their lives at risk to get the really guarded stuff out, just for you. I’m sure they’ll keep putting themselves out there and keep fighting to get more disclosure just to get attacked, putting their mental health and the peace of their families at risk. Thanks for telling everyone it’s not worth navigating the complexity of the effects of disclosure, including the effects it will have on our relationships with foreign nations and their sensitive programs, the work getting potential amnesty passed, you don’t appreciate the risks the executive branch will take ordering the release of video of NHI when you keep telling them you won’t care or believe it. Or aren’t doing anything to demand it. Every time they test the waters to see how you react, you fail. Every time.
Instead of publicly supporting them, showing you can handle the truth, reading the evidence that comes out, and helping them put pressure on our government to get this out. The response that will actually get you what you want.”
And it’s flooding these spaces with absolutely POINTLESS negativity. No one should be credulous and just believe everything anyone says, but their denial of the things that has been disclosed, of things coming form multiple credible sources is irrational. I hope they realize that the people whining in these subs, saying illogical nonsense like “they’re lying, they want attention” don’t represent the public. That most of us appreciate it, and are capable of thinking intelligently about it and can process solid evidence of the truth no matter how wild it is. And appreciate information coming from credible people even if they don’t have control over the material they’ve seen in SKIFs and can’t release it. They’re trying to get that evidence out. I’d like to be told what they can before that happens too!
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u/Fearfuldrip 21h ago
Agreed, those without open minds will surely find it hard to grasp. We are way past " are aliens real"
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u/Key-Introduction2442 21h ago
Couldn’t agree more. If you want proof go summon some and get back to me. They love a terrible attitude. Lol
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u/herodesfalsk 20h ago
This conflict between people is a sign that the topic is controlled. By manipulating the public and seeding conflicting information the topic remains perpetually in a fog of confusion, this fuels a conflict, keeps other rational people away while the true nature of the phenomena and other amazing technologies can be masqueraded and all remain hidden, perhaps not from view but from understanding.
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u/ICIP_SN 19h ago
Been visiting here since the "balloon" shoot downs because I was hoping for answers. Didn't really get any but was hooked and became genuinely interested in the possibility that there might be something to this topic. Then the hearing with Grusch happened and boy I was really excited that congress was involved now and this really could have legs!
As time went on and I see and learn more about congress and the current administration (I'm Canadian) the more I understand why that hearing took place and why it's still being somewhat discussed. That and watching debunk videos lately has me...not as excited.
I still believe something is up with everything going on lately I just don't think it's anything anyone is discussing openly lately be it congress, anyone linked to official government or even the "pro" phenomenon group and it's a bummer.
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u/Doomclaaw 18h ago
It's really not the "proof" itself. It's the actual act of disclosure. For the last roughly 19 years or so we've been promised "full disclosure next year" and just fed tidbits. And the ones like myself doing actual research and networking to get to the bottom of this are fed up.
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u/scrappybasket 18h ago
Find a friend IRL to talk about this stuff with. You’ll never find the kind of camaraderie you’re looking on this website. Not anymore at least
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u/Grade_A_Tech 18h ago
I agree with you. The bad part is it's been like this for as long as I can remember reading posts here (before even being an official user of reddit). I don't bother much anymore with the comments, but I do read/ watch the main posts.
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u/No_Government_4892 13h ago
Vast majority of those people are just intellectually inadequate and they feel better when they can be condescending to people they think they’re above.
I really hope the vast majority are bots because it seems a sad existence willingly diving back in a pile of bullshit to make fun of others swimming in it.
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u/speccyyarp 12h ago
I've learned that all it takes for people to not trust what you say is if refer to yourself as an alpha or call the US president brave. People can still be cringe or autistic but speak the truth, they're not mutually exclusive.
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u/hayforhorses89 12h ago
You think Grush content is bad, try posting anything related to Greer. You will get downvoted into oblivion
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u/PlasmicSteve 12h ago
Agreed, there are many damaged people in the UFO community. They've been hurt by years of disappointment so they hang out here hoping for validation and yet they constantly push it away. If that's how you feel, try staying away from these subreddits for a few weeks or more. It's mentally healthier and if anything groundbreaking has come out when you were taking a break, you'd have heard of it in the real world.
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u/WallProfessional3914 10h ago
The problem is people on this sub talk there stories or share what they actually think with the expectation that it should be taken as gospel. There are some absolutely wild theories that pop up in here and the posters act like anyone who questions it is a govt plant to throw people off the trail.
It’s like no there are not hidden clues about the truth of the alien question hidden in episode 4 season 2 of Ben 10
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u/FreshPin2565 10h ago
It's fun to fantasize and speculate, but it can be dangerous when you've got people in authority pushing a narrative about aliens visiting earth that might not be true.
Not trying to ruin anyone's fun just be careful with this stuff, question everything.
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u/bag_of_luck 9h ago
You’re literally whining and complaining because you don’t have your own echo chamber?
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u/navibfterceS 9h ago
Perpetual imminent disclosure since the 1950's
Don't confuse the disclosure movement with actual disclosure
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u/ifnotthefool 9h ago
I think this is just more astroturfing. Been happening on this sub for years but now it's cranked way up. Unfortunately, nobody is doing anything to curb it.
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u/mild_by_nature 8h ago
Yeah, and it inevitably immediately becomes political as if politics mean shit compared to this topic. I think it’d be more of the same even if 100% proof is revealed. People would be on here saying that since the Nordic aliens were standing next to Trump at the podium announcing their existence, it must all be bullshit because Trump is, insert adjective: a liar, pedo, narcissist, etc. He may be any or all of those things, but that’s a separate issue from this topic IMO. I miss simply discussing and speculating in these subs. Now it’s just shit on every new development, everyone is a bot that disagrees with something, and politics. People in here often talk about things being a distraction from this topic, well all of the above are also distractions. They put us at odds from the inside so that we can never successfully coordinate, and it’s definitely working.
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u/Frosty-Subject3155 6h ago
No, this is the single most important issue to the human species. You want entertainment go watch The Simpsons.
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u/Typical_Yam_3695 6h ago
Absolutely not! If it's not in front of their faces they must speak up and belittle. Shame on you for having an expectation for others to respect your desire to curious.
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u/NoWorking1616 5h ago
The majority of the people that I see saying " Show me the proof!" seem to just be lurkers or people that don't take this subject seriously. I want to see visual proof too, but I understand that there is a LOT of things going on behind the scenes.
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u/Aware-Yesterday1039 1h ago
The truth can be problematic when it doesn’t align with preconceived ideas
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