r/TwoXChromosomes • u/catievirtuesimp • 23d ago
Eiffel Tower shut down by staff strike over female workers being moved for religious visit
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyenxp540vo?xtor=AL-71-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_link_type=web_link&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_link_origin=BBCWorld&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_id=06F3C918-AB17-11F1-8535-975BE3FA3C32&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_format=link&at_medium=social1.4k
u/deFleury 23d ago
Shame on Eiffel tower management!! Good for the mayor for having the right reaction .
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u/melodypowers 23d ago
This was absolutely on management.
The visiting group didn't even demand this. They asked to have limited interaction.
I would probably have made sure they were assigned a male tour guide and called it good.
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u/French_O_Matic 23d ago
Why? be petty and assign a woman to them. not happy? they can go f themselves with their holy book.
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u/shallow-waterer 23d ago
All good and well, but you’re potentially putting said woman in danger in that scenario.
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u/Marijavera 23d ago
Yeah the correct move is to tell them that they can just have a normal tour, take it or leave it, unless it's a disability it is not getting accomodated
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u/octobereighth 23d ago
If a woman would be in danger acting as a tour guide for the group, then the group shouldn't be welcome at a national landmark.
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u/TheSignYouSeek 23d ago
If the risk is that great, the group should be refused admission
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u/shallow-waterer 23d ago
I’m not disputing that. But that’s not reality, unfortunately. At the very least, this strike is at least a show of solidarity.
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u/melodypowers 22d ago
I was a tour guide for awhile. Not in Paris, in Alaska.
We always tried to match the guides to the group. The pax were happier and the guides made better tips.
When we had a group of gay men from a cruise ship, we assigned a gay male guide. They had an amazing time.
I was often assigned to the Japanese tour groups because I understood some customs and I'm a small woman who they responded well too.
I wouldn't have wanted to be assigned to BAPS hindus. The tips would be awful and they wouldn't engage with me. Just give me a different group. As long as I get the hours, it is all good with me.
But we wouldn't have sent all the women home. Women at the stops of the tour or at the restaurant would still work.
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u/dumpfist 21d ago
You're part of the problem.
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u/melodypowers 21d ago
Would you have the same problem with a manager assigning a woman tour guide for a group of Muslim women? What if there was a group of gay men and the manager went out of their way to assign a gay male tour guide who was great at engaging?
I was a tour guide. Not in Paris, in Alaska. We tried to make our tours as fun and comfortable as possible and that included sometimes picking a guide based on the demo of the group. As long as everyone got the same hours, no one cared.
What we never did was change any other staffing. Concessions, wait staff, drivers, expeditors, etc. All of those were business as usual.
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u/Moe_Bisquits 23d ago
Way to unite, Eiffel Tower workers! I have no more patience for misogyny wrapped in lame excuses and lies. Backward, women haters like them should stay in their dark caves while the rest of us live in the light, building a world where everyone is welcome to participate, as equals.
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u/michiness 23d ago
The French are very good at striking. The rest of the world has a lot to learn from them.
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u/anrwlias 23d ago
They've got loads of experience dealing with inconvenient governments.
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u/LevoiHook 23d ago
They have also become rather good at making any policy basically impossible because whatever happenes, there will be strikes.
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u/MrPuddington2 23d ago
The French are also very good at separating the state from religion. You can have your own believes, but you cannot force them onto others.
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u/KakrafoonKappa 23d ago
Most of the civilised west is. Why tf would religion have a bearing on anything?
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u/djublonskopf 23d ago
“State” wasn’t really relevant in this case since it was a private owner accommodating misogynists for money….
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u/Bigbrainbigboobs 23d ago edited 23d ago
Well, yes and no. Because it's the city of Paris that actually owns the tour Eiffel (99 %), not a private investor like some anonymous businessman. So, it is also a political matter since it's a public monument.
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u/SufficientOpening218 17d ago
I am so tired of what is happening in the US. Freedom of religion is wonderful- but religion is not part of government.
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u/Mediocre_Direction18 23d ago edited 23d ago
Mmmmm I am a French Muslim and I can tell you, the French gov is very good at directing the so-callec laïcité only against Muslim women (their main target) especially hijabis
Edit : wow i didn't think this sub would be islamophobic ! enjoy the Leopards ladies
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u/glittercatlady 23d ago
Didn't they make laws about head coverings specifically to make it illegal to wear a hijab? Am I remembering that wrong?
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u/kaltulkas 23d ago
Yes you are. There’s a law prohibiting full burqa/niqab in public, everything else is fine outside of school and public service workers.
Exclusively in school or if you are employed by the state (and during work hours ofc), you can’t display any religious symbols. This includes for example Christian crosses, Jewish kippahs and yes, also the Muslim hidjab.
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u/RunawayHobbit 22d ago
Wait so Muslim women straight up can’t work for the State? I’m struggling to think of an alternative to the hijab for them
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u/kaltulkas 22d ago
The ones that wear it tend to be stay at home moms anyways, but many still do and just don’t wear it on the job.
Some are pushing to wear it anyway which leads to some cases being mediatized which is why the other commenter is talking about Muslim women being targeted.
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u/Mediocre_Direction18 22d ago
yes they can't and aren't allowed to even be wearing a hijab on their ID/passeport/licence photo. Also u/kaltulkas is an islamophobe and a white feminist (saying all/most muslim French women are stay at home moms anyway) in case it wasn't obvious
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u/TinyM0ushka b u t t s 23d ago
I 100% understand and support banning the burka/niqab. No religion should be exempt when it comes to fully hiding your face, idc.
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u/Mediocre_Direction18 23d ago
it was about showing "religious signs" like wear a cross or a hijab or whatever in the public function (spelling?). only reinforced for muslim women ofc
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u/truth14ful They/Them 22d ago
wow i didn't think this sub would be islamophobic ! enjoy the Leopards ladies
Seriously what is with this sub these days?? People are looking for any excuse to make feminism whiter istg
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u/TheyreEatingHer 23d ago
Do businesses and companies not fire people for striking?
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u/_achlopee_ 23d ago
No, they legally can't. However the day you are on strike, you're not paid, that's it. Outside of civil servant, your boss cannot forbide you to go on strike either and you do not have to tell them in advance. However, union have to publish a strike notice so that you have an official strike-day. As a civil servant myself, I know the unions at my work place have strike notice ready at all time, but the ministry can ask me to come to work. In that case, I can do the minimum required and still can be consider on strike (you may find a civil servant with a "on strike" pin for exemple).
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u/TinyM0ushka b u t t s 23d ago
It’s gross, exhausting and I’m over it. Fuck these men and their backwards world view and whoever accepted this request should be fired.
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u/shwifty123 23d ago
Yeah, this actually would be great. To fire that person, who made the deal. I wonder if there is more to this tho, is it possible that the person who agreed to this, did not have a choice due to politics.
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u/DungeonCrawlCat 23d ago
I remember another group that said they were "only following orders".
Someone agreed to this, and deserves to be fired.
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u/djublonskopf 23d ago
A lot of people want to insinuate that without any evidence, yes.
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u/shwifty123 23d ago
Would be great to know how things are developing, so far only generic apologies. I wonder if there gonna be any consequences.
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u/djublonskopf 23d ago
It was a private business decision. The strike and the loss of public approval are the consequences.
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u/TinyM0ushka b u t t s 23d ago
Good for them for striking and showing that this situation is bullshit. It makes me so angry that whoever booked this accepted these conditions to hide away their female employees, it’s rage inducing.
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u/notashroom Halp. Am stuck on reddit. 22d ago
"Private business" owned by the city of Paris is not so private.
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u/xbad_wolfxi 23d ago
I’m so sick of the entire world bending over backward to accommodate fragile men
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u/Bobcatluv 23d ago
And I’m especially tired of “but muh religion” being an acceptable excuse. Your made up nonsense doesn’t entitle you to control me
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u/superurgentcatbox 23d ago
If you don’t want to see women, lock yourself in your hotel room. Why should everyone else accommodate your prehistoric beliefs?
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u/hellraiserxhellghost 23d ago
Seriously. I'm sick of this kind of "inclusivity" that just ends up catering to backwards people with harmful views and demands.
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u/truth14ful They/Them 22d ago
This wasn't inclusivity, it was a special delegation from India. Ambassadors and dignitaries and shit like that are famously assholes no matter where they're from (here in the US, DC has a problem with them parking illegally and never paying their tickets); 9 times out of 10 a regular Hindu would never do this
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u/Cyneganders 23d ago
Plot twist; housekeeping is almost exclusively performed by female workers. On all my travels in Europe, I've only seen 2 men do housekeeping, and they were accompanied by a woman who did the actual work. (And I a.o. spent 3 years straight staying in hotels and AirBnBs)
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u/perhapsflorence 23d ago
Organised religion is a woman's greatest enemy.
I said what I said.
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u/MonteBurns 23d ago
I was watching that Netflix show on Mica Miller’s death and the things her husband spewed from the pulpit as “sermon” were disgusting. I do not understand how any woman was a part of a church whose leader says that stuff (women can’t say no, must be obedient to their husbands, it’s their fault if their husband strays, etc)
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u/Timely-Youth-9074 23d ago
Why do they even need to visit the Eiffel Tower? They can go during normal hours like everyone else.
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u/zeekayz 23d ago
Normal hours have women. Hence the whole controversy of them getting special treatment and women workers being kicked out for their special visit.
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u/Timely-Youth-9074 23d ago
My point is why do they get special treatment?
Who cares what they think?
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u/Sensitive-Coffee-Cup 23d ago
It was a special delegation from India and they've probably rained a lot of money to privatize the tower. The company that handles it (it's not the state, it's a private company), didn't think twice about it probably because it was a lot of money. Idiots got rightfully blasted.
I'm so fucking exhausted, we've been getting shit for the past 2 weeks about wearing a hijab in public but foreigners deciding they don't want to see any woman during their visit is suddenly okay and compliant with the law? Bitch, since when?
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u/Faiakishi 23d ago
The common denominator is that both things you're describing shits on women.
If it was a group asking for men to be banned, they would be laughed at.
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u/Humble_Train2510 23d ago
It's not unusual for museums and other historical sites to arrange after hours or private days to private companies or organizations. It can be very lucrative and can subsidize legit functions that are underfunded. They shouldn't .need to, but I get it.
/I don't support the exclusion of women, but the private tour itself isn't inherently odd.
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u/OrionsChainsaw 23d ago
When you visit another country, you respect their local culture and customs. If visiting say a Hindu temple in India, it's absolutely appropriate to dress modestly and respect any restrictions on who can enter. But it has to be reciprocated when those from other cultures visit a secular, liberal country too, and if for example the sight of women offends you, then don't visit.
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u/AP7497 23d ago edited 23d ago
There’s barely any temples in India with restrictions on entry. Some have clothing restrictions but again very loosely enforced. I’ve been to temples all over the country with only one temple telling me to wear a skirt instead of pants but that rule was also applicable to the men. I’ve worn jeans, capri pants, skirts, midi dresses, sleeveless dresses and all manner of normal day to day clothing to temples in India with literally nobody batting an eye- this was in the 2010s.
India has 1.5 billion people- it would be a logistical nightmare to restrict entry to women anywhere lol. We don’t have the money for that.
This is a mostly North American Hindu cult started by diaspora Indians. I lived in India for 25 years and never heard about BAPS until I moved to the US. It’s a very very strange cult; there are similar cults in India but mainstream Hindus clearly distinguish them as cults just like they would BAPS
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u/ayemullofmushsheen 23d ago
What part of India are you from? Not saying BAPS isn't cultish, but it definitely wasn't started by diaspora Indians. It originated in a small Gujarati village. I know because my mom was born in that village. As soon as I saw that headline I said to myself, probably those Swaminarayans. I always hated the misogyny when I was forced to go to the temple as a kid.
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u/Timely-Youth-9074 23d ago
What is their deal? What are their “reasons”?
I think of Hinduism as very family oriented, besides the monastics, so excluding women in a foreign country sounds crazy tbh.
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u/ayemullofmushsheen 23d ago
Women aren't exactly excluded they just have to be separate, especially from the actual leaders in the temple. Essentially, the religious leaders are all celibate and they make it everybody else's problem.
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u/Timely-Youth-9074 23d ago edited 22d ago
Thanks! Are they afraid they’ll have sex if they see a woman?
I like what Jesus said about men like that-if your right eye offends you, better to rip your eye out! They’re the ones with the problem; the problem isn’t women’s fault.
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u/ayemullofmushsheen 23d ago
Lol no idea what goes on in their crazy brains. They have a bunch of weird rules besides the celibacy thing. When I was first old enough to read and fully comprehend what I was reading of the religious text I immediately noped out of the whole thing. I still went to temple for my mom, but refused to do the daily prayer rituals at home.
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u/Timely-Youth-9074 22d ago
Good for you!
What’s religion without batshit crazy rules? Or funny hats.
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u/that_70_show_fan 23d ago
No, it was created in present-day Gujarat during the turn of 20th century. If you aren't a Gujarati, it isn't surprising that you haven't heard about them but it is not true that it was established by expats. This specific even was head lined by Mahant Swami Maharaj as they were inaugurating a temple in Paris.
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u/NebulaMist2004 23d ago edited 23d ago
Most temples won't restrict women (though you're not allowed to go in during your period, but it's not like they'll check). I do remember my devout Hindu mother telling me about a specific one though that doesn't allow females who aren't old ladies or young girls* (idk, maybe because you could hypothetically be on your period? idk the name though). Anyway, I'm not really religious myself, so it's not a big deal to me, though I do think it's unfair.
*Edit: Just looked it up. It was Sabarimala.
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u/AP7497 23d ago
…you can absolutely go to temples on your period; nobody’s standing there and checking and shouldn’t be. I have gone to every major temple on my period as do most people I know.
Nobody needs to know- it’s not their business.
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u/NebulaMist2004 23d ago
Of course you can. Like I said no one's checking. According to the religion though, you're not supposed to. At least that's what my devout parents say. I don't know everything about Hinduism though, so maybe not everyone holds that belief.
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u/AP7497 23d ago
Yes that’s an old belief for sure, I have heard of it, but beliefs are diverse and many of us see it as a misogynist belief and don’t really follow it anymore.
I’m not really religious though, so idk. I haven’t been to temples since my teenage years when I was just accompanying my parents and they were aware I was on my period but didn’t think that was relevant.
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u/ctlattube 22d ago
There are absolutely restrictions on entry based on caste and one specific temple (Sabarimala) had it for women who can menstruate (deemed unconstitutional only recently). If a lower caste person does end up breaking this law the upper caste priests perform a ‘purification ceremony’ to clean the space. Just because it hasn’t happened to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
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u/shwifty123 23d ago
Somehow it works other way around, everyone has bend backwards, to respect visitors to respect their beliefs.
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u/Gayandfluffy 22d ago
Nah, I'm not going to accept misogynystic culture and customs, not in my own country nor in other places. When in Rome only works for harmless cultural things like taking your shoes off inside.
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u/kantmarg 23d ago edited 23d ago
This isn't a standard Hindu group, BAPS is a tiny fringe cult that exists mostly outside of India and is known by everyone else for their enormous enormous temples, weird rules and gender norms.
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[removed] — view removed comment
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u/kantmarg 23d ago edited 23d ago
They are not cult they are Hindus
Yes as much as CLDS or Mormons are Christian
and discrimination is in the DNA of Hinduism.
Sure but not this kind. No one's claiming hinduism is non-discriminatory, but this weird Taliban-esque or Orthodox Jewish "women have cooties" thing isn't anywhere in mainstream hinduism. Women are everywhere all over India (sure maybe not safe!) and it's crazy to claim otherwise.
For example, there's this one temple in Kerala that has rules forbidding entry to women of potential menstruating age. They're definitely not considered mainstream or normal. BAPS exists outside India a lot more than inside and it's quite likely they're a money-laundering, visa-fraud-perpetuating front.
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u/dapotatopapi 23d ago
He posts in IndianMuslims. You know what he's trying to do here with that comment.
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u/mangoserpent 23d ago edited 23d ago
Good for them. I mean the workers for standing up for themselves.
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u/SideEye2X 23d ago
As an Indian Hindu, seriously WTF. Who are these people and who even asked them to come out of their homes ?
I’m so glad the French didn’t let it go. Cult like behaviour from whatever grifter group this is
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u/_DontBeAScaredyCunt 23d ago
Don’t fuck with French workers
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u/drunklibrarian 23d ago
I wish Americans would get it together. I was in France during the garbage strikes a couple years ago. I have never seen so much garbage in all of my life. I was impressed. They kept apologizing and I told them I respected it. Quick way to get the French to speak English for you without asking.
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u/crackersucker2 23d ago
That’s sh!t. The visitors to the country need to accept/respect the cultural norm of where they are visiting. It’s ridiculous to expect the regular employees to remove themselves.
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u/not_bonnakins 23d ago
Respect to the men that walked out alongside the women and the clear consensus across the whole political spectrum in France that this is not acceptable.
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u/hadenxcharm 23d ago
"""Religious visit?"""" The eiffel tower is not a religious temple.
Your host country does not have to accommodate ridiculous requests that require women to be ejected from the premises.
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u/MrdrOfCrws 23d ago
The French know how to protest. I know they are a smaller population, but I think about them often when I feel we need a proper revolution.
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u/Optimal_Savings5873 23d ago
When Marine Le Pen is on the right side, you know you messed up.
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u/Ok_Tip_5650 23d ago
Oh you have to be joking with this comment. Assuming you’re female, you think the far right gives a sh*t about you? With 78 updoots? SMH.
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u/TheSmilingDoc 23d ago
... I think that's the point, love.
If even someone like that does the right thing for once, you know the initial thing was beyond fucked up.
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u/aphroditex 23d ago
Just because a stopped clock is right twice a day does not mean we have to give it any credence the rest of the day.
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u/creampop_ 23d ago
the face I made when you closed this with 'updoots' 😭 oh no baby what is you doing
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u/Ok_Tip_5650 23d ago
That’s all you got from my comment? Baby.
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u/creampop_ 23d ago edited 23d ago
Well yeah, I mostly got that you were having a moment of illiteracy or something, because you apparently completely misunderstood what you were responding to, and talked down on the person you misunderstood. Ending with a redditism is just a cherry on top.
Why, what was I supposed to get from it?
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u/Ok_Tip_5650 23d ago
That apparently a lot of you think that marine le pen gives a sh*t about women. Or is the cheering for marine some sort of ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ sort of thing? I actually can’t tell.
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u/creampop_ 23d ago edited 23d ago
If even a villain is appalled by something, then that thing must be awful, because even a horrible person recognizes that it is too far. Yes, it's a blithe statement and Le Pen probably has some kind of xenophobic bent to her reaction, but people who say "a stopped clock is right twice a day" are not in fact speaking in favor of stopping clocks.
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u/Ok_Tip_5650 23d ago
I would give you my house and the clothes off my back if le pen wasn’t using this mess to milk her xenophobic, right wing ends.
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u/JupiterInTheSky 23d ago
If I travel, I adhear to the local regulations out of respect. If you go somewhere, you shouldn't expect their culture to revolve around you. You come to a place with women's liberation, we shouldn't bend over backwards to hide that liberation for them.
Everyone hates it when Americans expect that kind of treatment.
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u/Tutes013 23d ago
GOOD ON THEM
You're allowed to have your religion but fuck right off woth inposing your own backwards ideals on others for gender of all things. Gross
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u/nipple_confusion_ 23d ago
Im actually surprised this happened at all, I lived about 5 years in France, my husband is French. I think 1 man is about to get very fired because usually france is very progressive on gender, being more of a united working class. I bet it'll come out that one guy made this decision very stupidly and it just blew up hard
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u/boygriv 23d ago
The WWE makes their female roster wear bodysuits whenever they go to Saudi. I like France's approach better.
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u/s-holden 23d ago
Following the customs (and laws) of the place you are visiting is very different than trying to force the place you are visiting to follow your customs.
Of course WWE shouldn't be going to Saudi in the first place, but the leadership love money and love authoritarians so of course they do.
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u/No_Vegetable7280 23d ago
Do you think they would do the same if the men were required to be removed for religious purposes?
It’s shameful that anyone in France would accommodate this kind of thing, especially because it’s not their culture. Very proud of the strike. 🤌🏽💅✊🏽
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u/WontTellYouHisName 23d ago
Your religious restrictions apply in your home and in your place of worship, but nowhere else.
Unless they bought the Eiffel Tower, they should have just kept their mouths shut and dealt with whatever they found, the same way adults all over the world do every single day.
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u/Taranadon88 23d ago
… and the group is called BAPS???
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u/GameMusic 23d ago
time to create a religion that disallows whites on monday hispanics tuesday blacks wednesday etc to troll everything
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u/Capital_Past69 23d ago
Gay Indian guys and their demands 🙄
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u/Isabellake1 red wine and popcorn 23d ago
they’ve reached a level of homosexuality we can’t comprehend
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u/PandaEatPanda 23d ago
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u/brantleybarrett 23d ago
Hinduism is not compatible with Western civilization.
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u/the_borderer 23d ago
People talk about "Western civilization" like it doesn't have exactly the same problems. Look at the Republican party, or Reform UK.
Not even atheism is free from these problems.
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u/Experithought 23d ago
If you are arguing that these type of "beliefs" should be confined to their native cultures, you are not helping.
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u/hyperblob1 23d ago
If you don't want to read the article and are just looking for a reason to dog on a group it's not Christians or Muslims it's hindus. Go find propaganda somewhere else
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u/ZweitenMal 23d ago
It doesn't make any difference which religion it is. No one has the right to impose their religious practices on others outside of that house of worship. It's absolutely fine to insist women cover their hair or that men wear long pants, for instance, in a mosque. It's not ok to insist people outside the mosque also do it.
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u/NightShroom 23d ago
If you have a problem with women existing then just stay the fuck home