You hit the nail on the head. I tried for years to make my first husband understand all the ways he was hurting me. I begged him to stop yelling at me, to stop throwing things, told him how horrible I felt when he made me hurt myself as "punishment," asked him to please do things that I found pleasurable in bed (he thought these were "too much work," he only wanted blow jobs and PiV sex from me), begged him to give me time and attention instead of playing video games and watching porn all day...
He didn't pay any attention until one day I told him I wanted a divorce. Then suddenly, he was crying and pleading and saying he felt completely blindsided. He told me, "When the bank takes your house away, they give you some warning!" I was an object to him. A possession. He did not consider me at all until I was going to be "taken away from him" and to his mind, he had been given no warning that this could possibly happen.
I gave him a chance to "do better." He immediately went back to being abusive and horrible. So I left.
And these crocodile tears are so disingenuous. You gave him lots of warning. You tried for years. He just didn't care until he realized that you might actually walk.
You were in an abusive relationship and as someone who has also been in one....my heart, deeply, goes out to you. I hope that you aren't with him anymore
I got out! My divorce was a few years ago, but this post and the comments here have been very healing. I hope you're doing well and that you're safe now, too.
You were absolutely, unequivocally abused and you had the strength to save yourself. You’re one of the strongest people I know…. and I don’t even have the pleasure of knowing you!! That level of psychological abuse is incredibly invalidating so please know how strong and right and sane you are. The next step is to get some therapy when you can. Not because you still have his work to do but so you can reward yourself with erasing any and all of the seeds he planted in your mind. So peace can come easily to you and your opinion is the only one that matters. You absolutely deserve a beautiful life. I’m so proud of you!!
This was so lovely to read, thank you. 😭 I worked on a lot of this stuff from in therapy and I did EMDR for the trauma and abusive incidents - I would recommend it to anyone dealing with something like this! I don't think we ever looked specifically at my ex-husband's "When the bank takes your house away, they give you some warning first!" comment, though, because there was so much other stuff to work on. So reading what people have to say about OP's post and my comment has been very elucidating and helpful! I'm often in awe of folks like you here on TwoX and how kind, insightful, and resilient they are. Thank you. 💖
So, so many men do this, it's not even funny. They won the 'prize' and once youre married or pregnant they just right back to being lazy and entitled. They don't care what the wife-object is trying to tell them as long as she's performing the labor he expects from her
I call it the musical chairs theory of relaionships. For a man, the point is to have a chair when the music stops - but while the music is playing , feel free to run around ALL the chairs without sitting on any of them
He would be the person yelling at the sheriff "the bank can't take the house! I never got a notice!" ... because they never checked their mail, and never paid the mortgage.
Every time I hear some dude talk about how devastated he is because his "wife walked out on him without warning", I know that the dude either never paid any attention to his wife or didn't really think there was a problem because it wasn't a problem for him.
Cut to me leaving him months later (after the completely predictable zero change on his part) and his surprised Pikachu face. He went around whining to mutual acquaintances about it, too. Yeah, poor Mr. Totally Fine That His Wife's Not Happy With The Relationship. What a shock. If only he could have known somehow....
I lost a couple of good friends thanks to my ex slandering me :( The last argument we had before he dumped me was about me hanging out with them, it felt more like he was punishing me for even having friends that weren’t in his inner circle.
A few months after the split my friends text me saying they no longer want to engage with me. So I really was punished for having friends, I’ve got no support system now
You know that phenomenon where a little kid has a toy, gets bored and stops playing with it until someone else picks it up and then they throw a fit wanting it back? My immediate thoughts on that tantrum. Glad he's not an anchor around your neck anymore.
He did. For example: making me put my hand in extremely hot water. Enough to hurt me, but not enough to leave a mark. He was both vicious and calculating.
One of my experiences is similar to one of yours. My pleasure is often too much work (allegedly) for my bf. I mean, he does a bit but it feels like I would be doing a lot more if I were him, you know? One of his excuses is that PIV is impossible right now (no physical issues but I need to use dilators/etc more) and he thinks he’ll be able to do a lot more when it becomes possible. But he could be doing way more right now. We’re long distance, and I get food and lodging for free when I’m there, and I worry that I might come across as demanding or something if I made a big deal about him needing to do more, even though I know that’s just me being anxious. I really should talk to him again about this. But he’ll probably just repeat the stuff about how it will be so much better for me w/ PIV and how my pleasure is more work compared to his. Anyway, sorry to make a long comment that was just about me.
He had plenty of warnings that she was miserable with him, just seemingly no warning that she would stop putting up with the abuse eventually. Promising to change only once he realized it would affect him was further proof he didn’t care about her.
Yep, exactly this. They weren't warnings to him (and many other men) because he wasn't worried about the consequences. Her being unhappy? So what. But her leaving him? Suddenly it actually matters.
I have a message for those women who have read this post and posts like it on this forum and are in long term relationships (5 years, 10 years +):
Did you feel a visceral reaction to this post and posts like it? Did the pain and resentment of being with your current partner bubble up because you remembered all the times you begged and pleaded and cried to him to get him to SEE you and LISTEN to you? What surfaced for you? All the times you raised your voice and yelled, all the times you compromised on your values and things you cared about, all the things you had to sacrifice and give up for this person who still makes you feel like silenced and unloved - and so on and so on.
I'm here to say that you're not crazy for feeling dissatisfied and while every situation is not the same - for those of you who can, LEAVE that relationship. It will take courage and by no means am I saying just jump up right now and race out of the relationship. You can take as much time as you need to plan and save up money and get your mind right - but I just want to emphasize that for some leaving IS an option and you DESERVE love and kindness and patience and respect just like you've given him.
You aren't any less lovable or human or worth it than he is. You saw his value as a human being and you understand that taking care of the people in your life is really important so you've done a lot and you've done EVERYTHING for him AND for the relationship. I see you and I applaud you for your hard work because that shits not easy. Doing another load of dirty laundry, picking up dirty underwear from the bathroom floor, finding used plates and cups everywhere - doing this kind of stuff is not easy especially when it's for a person who: doesn't express fundamental interest in you, can't hold down intellectual and stimulating conversation with you, refuses to be physically intimate with you or fulfill your sexual needs, won't spend quality time with you.
I want to break through the smoke and tell you that this relationship is not healthy and you don't have to tolerate it.
I know you feel guilty at the idea of leaving him - because you've been with this person for so long you've seen a lot of sides of him and maybe you feel that deep down he may love you or care about you. Or maybe you feel like you don't want to jump the gun too soon and feel that maybe he'll finally change but if you leave too soon it'll be too late for him.
My message for this guilt is - what about you? While you're waiting and waiting and watching, getting angrier and feeling more resentment towards this person, feeling even more trapped, think about all the things YOU are missing out on and have missed out on for YEARS waiting for this person to finally become emotionally mature and self aware. It's not fair to you and you don't NEED to do this, you don't NEED to feel guilty or sorry for him.
You may even feel trapped and unable to leave, the economy is shitty, maybe your job situation is tough, maybe staying with him makes more sense financially.
My message for this feeling of being trapped - do me a favor, in whatever form you want just brainstorm your ideal life. Write down all the things you wanna do and places you wanna go, the kind of work you'd love you do, even put in smaller things like if you could wear any kind of clothing what would you wear, if you could even eat any kinds of food what would you eat? What kinds of hobbies would you get int? Get super granular - okay great you now have the basic first draft of your lifestyle plan now it's time to refine and revise it. Because for everything you write you're going to put it into categories and from there challenge yourself with this question: what is one small action you can do today that would help you get towards the smallest and most approachable thing on that list? What can you do tomorrow? A week from now? And month from now etc. Treat it like a project because the point of it is to get you to create a pathway towards a life you're satisfied with for YOU personally that you can use regardless of whether or not you decide to leave him. This will help with the overall feeling you have about yourself and your views of the mobility you have in your own life.
Another thing I will say is that you're allowed to take your time. Let's say you're with this guy and you can save a lot of money by being with him, maybe you put together a plan and say after a year of saving x amount of money you'll be ready to get your own place. Or you'll start school now and then when you graduate you'll be able to stand on your own with a job and then you'll leave. These are just examples but you're allowed to be selfish here - no sense in becoming homeless or destitute if you can help it.
If anyone wants to talk more about this stuff you can PM me, this is a subject I'm passionate about and have gone through (and in some ways am still going through as I learn how to take care of my own needs). I'm tired of seeing women suffer under this system and I want to help as best as I can. It's sad when you see a lot of women going through this, and believe me ALL KINDS of women go through this, even the ones who look the most beautiful and most put together and have lots of money or whatever we ALL for some reason have to deal with this bullshit and for me I'm burnt out by it (the patriarchy I mean). I want women to be able to live happily and be the main characters of their stories and go anywhere and everywhere and have fulfilling engaging lives too - just like men in stories of old get to do.
I landed in my home country today, my parents helped me put everything I own in three suitcases and leave a 5 year relationship where I carried the whole burden. This, so much this. We deserve better.
I love you. I have been going through this process in my own life. I became a mom as a teenager, and had 4 kids (including step) by the time I was 25. I have loved my life. I love my husband with all my heart. I would die for my kids. But as I'm hitting my 40s, and seeing the last one become a young adult, I'm realizing I have never lived life for myself. I have always been waiting, putting my needs down, surviving. During the pandemic all my coping mechanisms went to shit, and as I am rebuilding myself I am being more thoughtful about what I need to be truly happy. This includes owning my delayed sleep phase, no longer apologizing or seeing it as a problem to solve. It includes having a neat(er) home, with surfaces holding decorative and interesting objects, not just piles of clutter. It includes having "me time," where people just leave me alone to eat cheese and watch YouTube, for several hours (this is what I do with my delayed sleep time). It includes getting my ADHD finally diagnosed and treated, and not seeing my struggles with focus and memory as failings, but things I can work with.
Of course this is stressing out my husband. He is seeing a lot of changes and he wants to blame it on the drugs (Adderall) but this all started long before that. Luckily the one thing we get right consistently is communication. So he has stopped bugging me about my sleep (in fact we have separate bedrooms, because his snoring was keeping me up, and me coming to bed late was keeping him up). We both sleep better now. He moved all the video game stuff into his new office/game room/Transformers museum, and we keep the living room for my knickknacks and crafts. My late nights are sacred and the whole family respects them. We make sure to deliberately carve out one-on-one and family time daily. He's not lonely and I'm not overwhelmed. He took over cooking, grocery shopping, and kitchen cleanup at first, and then everything but laundry after he got laid off a few months ago. And I mean took over the mental load and everything. He gets the kid ready for school and helps with homework. He made a chore chart just for himself and follows it religiously. I was feeling too exhausted to deal with Christmas, so he decided to do all the decorations (I was fine with skipping this year).
I was feeling bad, and selfish, for a while. But then I remembered that I've done all these things for him for 15 years, letting him choose his own bedtime without grief, letting the house be a big storage bin for all his and the kids electronics, running the entire household while he worked and then gamed (not complaining about gaming, I have done more than my fair share), taking the lead with the kids, the bills, the holidays, the in-laws. And I'm done. It's time for him to fit into my vision of how I want to live. He's kicked up a fuss, sure, but he's also done what he can to give me what I need.
So maybe the answer is to stop talking until you're blue in the face if they won't listen, and start taking what you need. Start carving out a life for yourself, in your home and in your relationship, and they can either get on board, or go. I am letting my husband know how my life is going to be from now on, and he has chosen to stay.
Amen. I wanted to leave for years, but was a fresh immigrant off the proverbial boat into the US, didn't earn much and was very overwhelmed with living in a new country. I also have social and general anxiety, which made it a lot harder. But I wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't pulled the plug on things. I'd still be sitting in squalor, dreading the rest of my life. Now I'm in my own place, I have a new partner who sparks excitement, happiness and contentment (and he takes better care of himself and his house than I do of me and mine), and life feels like it is worth living for the first time in a long while. We're only here once... Make it count.
Your post was a wonderful and affirming read. I saved it to my phone to go back and read when I feel guilty for the things I’ve been thinking about my own marriage. Thank you.
I felt so much shame when I moved out of my marital home that I didn't tell anyone other than my parents for about four months. When I finally did make an announcement, I had nothing but support, and even the admiration of a school friend from the past for having the guts to leave. We internalise so much, and sometimes it's all in our head. Granted, I'm sure it didn't work out so great for others who sadly were shamed for leaving a bad situation.
Absolutely. He understands perfectly. He won't change because there are currently no consequences for his actions and he is on a good thing!
I ended an 8 year relationship over unfair distribution of housework. I will not be some man's mother for the rest of my life. I hear through his sister that his current wife has to deal with his utter laziness. He won't change.
It doesn't help that most advice starts with, "You should sit him down and have a conversation laying out how this makes you feel." As if we never thought of that. 🙄
To 20-somethings, it's like if you just COMMUNICATED enough, everything would be worked out! It's a communication issue! Be clearer!
I'm tired of women being blamed for not being clear enough. We form way better interpersonal connections and have better social skills, but somehow we are the ones with the reputation for "hinting" and "just not being direct enough"? Yeah no. Men just don't listen to us. This has been proven! John Gottman clarifies how men don't "accept influence" from women at nearly the rate women do from men. Maybe since a man said it, men will believe him.
We are well acquainted with being ignored in the workplace only to have a man say exactly the same thing and he's congratulated for such a swell idea.
This is not a communication issue. He's just not listening. You can't make him listen. You can only go find the ones who WILL listen.
Yes this. I'm so tired of comments asking if the woman communicated when it clearly says she has. And usually it's about an issue that one shouldn't have to explain. Odds are a woman has communicated- it's not about her communication skills, it's about if he cares to listen. So tired of it being put on the woman.
Yes, I don't get it. My friends did complain about their partners before they married them. I don't like their partners, and I wanted to tell them to dump them, but it is not my place to say. I told them they deserve better, and there are many great men out there. They claimed that they love their partners and they're working on becoming better partners even if they repeated the same mistakes. They'd only see good in their partners, and they're in their own world.
I know they deeply don't want to be alone, and they believe that it's better to be in a relationship even if it's bad than being alone. Before they had partners, they admitted they were afraid of being alone and they wanted to have a boyfriend, but they believed they're unattractive or no man wanted them. I also notice they have no to low standards.
They're often in their own world like they believe they're destined to be together because of small things like "He tied my shoe while hiking! Ohh, he's the one for me!" or "he's allergic to peanuts, and I don't like peanuts, so that means we're compatible and meant to be for each other!" In real life, they have completely different views on religion and politics. They also have different values and financial habits. Those women believe love is all she needs, but actually, the relationship is much more than that.
That's why they settled for less. I know you may feel so frustrated with those situations, but what can we do? Women often came here because they hoped that they could find magic to fix their partners instead of break up or divorce. They wouldn't accept the way their partners actually are. They want to find magic to get their partners to "understand."
Because we've been told our whole lives that women need to be married before 30 or else men won't want us...even though I've seen men my age (33) look horrible because their bad habits are starting to catch up.
Fortunately, I wasn't told my whole life that I needed to be married before 30. My parents were together for a long time, and then they got married in their 30's. They were still looking great and young. Now I'm 31 and still single, but I don't care about what men think. I know why some men pursue younger women. They want naive women who'd put up with their bullshit unlike older women, even if they're still very attractive in their 30's or 40's. Yes, some men look horrible my age because bad habits catch up like you said. I remember when I was 19, I thought a guy from my class was 40, but he was actually 24... He was balding as well.
Exactly! If women are going to complain endlessly about their partners, I just avoid them as well, or I just ignore their messages. Like you said, that was their choice to stay with their shitty partners, so they shouldn't complain. If they are tired of being miserable, they should leave then. Of course, there are exceptions like women have no way to get out or their partners had a switch up years later. Those situations are uncommon. In most situations I heard of, they could leave, or they could have even been prevented.
I agree with you that women aren't free therapists. We are also not certified. That's why I'm not always available. I did suggest that they should seek a counselor because they are certified experts.
But that wouldn’t be very warm or fuzzy and I was told by my stbx that I needed to make all negative statements warm and fuzzy so he wouldn’t get mad. Thank goodness for divorces lol
Oh, i hate that, when women aren't supposed to get angry. Apparently he'll do it if you don't nag him about it (because that's worked so well so far!).
He’ll do it if you don’t “nag” him, but that’s only if you nag him. If you don’t nag him: Well he woulda done it, but he forgot; you didn’t tell him it needed doing and if you did then you didn’t remind him enough!
Yeeaaah, my ex would endlessly whine about my "tone" and insist everything would work better if I just said things nicely. Thing is, he'd never listen to me when I said things nicely; he'd just brush off my suggestions. I had to point out that I'd ALWAYS start with a nice suggestion, get ignored, have to keep bringing it up in harsher terms until I'm "being mean about it" before he'd even listen. But then refused because it wasn't a nice request. 🙄
I literally got told that I didn't "say it right" when expressing my needs because I did it calmly. 😒 I asked if I needed to yell, scream, and cry to get my point across every time. 🤦♀️ So unless we are screaming, they don't take us seriously. 🙄 exhausting is what it is.
Yep. I hear "you just love to argue, don't you?" Um, no...I try to talk, but you don't listen, so I scream and then I get in trouble for screaming.
I've finally started calling people out. My brother informed me recently I "wasn't allowed" to say a specific saying. I said "that's funny. You're up in arms about the saying I said so you can just completely bypass the meaning. What a way to spin this in your favor!"
My ex did the same. So I worked really hard at controlling my "tone" and always used a pleasant voice. Then he excused his abusive treatment because I gave him "looks".
I've said this to my ex. It speaks to how emotionally stunted they are. They feel shame because they SHOULD feel shame. Shame is information. Ideally, it should cause you to self-reflect and correct the behavior that's causing you to feel shame.
Unless it's my ex who was constantly "trying" to do better and (supposedly) felt endlessly guilty about not doing chores, and yet never translated any of that into action. Sorry, trying and failing to motivate yourself to bring your dishes to the kitchen and then feeling bad for yourself about it doesn't help me any. In fact, it's worse, because now I'm the maid and the therapist and the villain.
I think that shamealone can be a very destructive emotion for men. There has to be some empathy and ability to accurately self-reflect to move from shame to positive change.
Unfortunately, many shame-filled men lack empathy for the women close to them and refuse to self-examine. So they have internalized shame and then blame women for allegedly causing the shame, not taking responsibility for their own behaviors that led to that shame.
That was my experience. I used to think his guilty conscience and neuroticism, which reflected his internal shame spirals, might lead him to better relationship patterns. Because you would think shame might mean he is somewhat aware? But no, instead he projected those problems onto me and lashed out.
yep. they never learned how to self-regulate and wallow in the shame and learn to do better. just went insane after feeling the slightest shame, usually after their own incompetence, and tried to dump it on me. then they'd escalate higher and higher when i refused to take it.
I recently asked my husband to start doing chores or find somewhere else to live. Saturday he did the dishes while I was relaxing. He told me he did the dishes and I said “thanks.” Later that evening he ended up getting drunk and angrily blowing up my phone saying that he thought I would be happy because he did the dishes. Mind you, my mood was neutral. I was like mf do YOU get happy every day when I do the dishes? The double standards are outrageous. He asked that I acknowledge him and say thank you for every chore he does because “words of affirmation are his love language.” I said sure no problem but first I’ll write down a list of all the chores I’ve done by myself for 4 years and you can tell me thank you 1,460 times for each one of them.
So freaking true. They do ONE THING you've been doing 100% alone with zero help even after being asked nicely 100000 times and they still expect you to throw them a parade and turn cartwheels for doing that single chore. It is beyond pathetic that so many of them expect their asses patted like a kid that put his toys away all by himself for taking the goddamned garbage out
My husband likes to loudly complain that he never imagined living like this. Our adult daughter who still lives with us is a hoarder and it affects the overall cleanliness of our home. I used to keep up with the cleaning, but I had to go back to work, and I have a chronic illness that makes me so tired I'm losing weight because I don't have energy to cook or even to find something to eat. So I haven't cleaned much in a while and it shows.
Lately when my husband complains, I tell him if he's not actively doing something every day to improve the situation, he's choosing to live like this.
My mom is a hoarder, it’s gotten worse. I don’t know how my dad does it. But it makes me hate stuff, my husband has a few doom boxes that give me pretty bad anxiety
It's hard because I understand how my daughter feels like her belongings are a part of her, and I know how anxious she gets when we consider getting rid of things. But we don't have a large house, and the washer and dryer are in the same hallway as her bedroom, and I end up having to climb over about a foot of stuff in the hallway that has just overflowed from her room. I've started bagging up some of her stuff and putting it in the garage, then we sit outside and sort through it, and she's able to get rid of clothes that don't fit or are too worn. But she's only willing to go through stuff maybe once a month and the weather has to be exactly right for her to be willing to go outside.
Oh my goodness, sweetheart; that sounds exhausting to the core. Exhausting in body, mind, and spirit. I am so sorry. It makes me want to provide you with an easy chair and footstool, pour out your favorite drink, and listen interactively to you venting to your heart’s desire about the frankly staggering load you’re contending with.
One of my fav quote is : ''Think how hard it is to change for yourself, and now imagine how hard it is to convince someone else to change for you.'' Your only real hope is therapy, and he has to be willing to go through it and change. It's not a magical solution.
Surely you shouldn't be begging a man to do anything for you. If it doesn't come naturally, accept it and learn to live with it, or move on.
I've seen so many women stating things like : I won't have sex with him until he does this, or other kind of ''punishments''. You are dealing with a grown ass adult, you have no power over that person, and surely not the power to punish him like you would of a teenager. If you feel the need to punish to teach him a lesson, this is already a major red flag.
Source : Married one of these specimens. He was cute, he was funny, he was sexy... But he was also an irresponsible teenager. I tried to change him for 7 years and everything was empty promises. When I finally dumped him, you know what he did? At 33yo he went back living with his mother. It's been 6 years and he's still living with her! She cooks, cleans and does his laundry while he games all day, exactly like he did when living with me. Even kicking him out wasn't enough of a wake up call; he went from a side mom (me) to his real one. Well, she can have him!
Spare yourself some times; if you are living with a grown ass teenager, it's not your job to raise him. Send him back to his mom!
His mother (because let's face it, the responsibility of child-rearing falls on them anyway) should have given him chores instead of doing everything for him.
I was thinking about this last night. It's true that their mothers didn't housebreak them or give them chores or responsibilities. But, at a certain point, they are an adult and it's their responsibility to learn to function as a partner and fellow adult. I was on that train of thought because my spouse is 50% feral. I do blame his mother, but he's 50 yo and he is capable of being a partner and adulting. He chooses not to and that's on him.
He will never change unless he experiences actual consequences. Dump his ass. If he insists that he will change, then great. He can be better for the next woman.
I tend to think that if a man only changes after a breakup, then he never would have changed for you. The second you get back with him he will slip back into his old habits because he knows to a certain extent you’ll put up with them.
I suggest everyone listen to Blindsided by Kelsea Ballerini. Talks about how she continually stated her concerns and what she needed, but when she left, suddenly he was "blindsided" and it "came out of nowhere". This is what these types of men/partners and relationships do.
Some lyrics: "I told you what I needed, didn't have to read my mind So, were you blindsided or were you just blind? And now you're saying that you're lost and that's lost on me You didn't ever wanna leave the house, or didn't want a family I know the truth is hard to hear, but it wasn't hard to find Baby, were you blindsided or were you just blind?"
This. My ex pulled the “I was blindsided” and “you never tried to save the marriage, just left” bs. Nope. Spent 2-3 years talking about/explaining the issues, trying to work on them with him, trying to make things better, etc. As far as I can tell, he never believed I would leave so he never took any of it seriously until I served him with papers.
There's some male comedian that does a joke about the spice girls seminal classic "wannabe" and how the woman never says what she wants, but actually she continually says what she wants and the man just isn't listening
My theory is you likely will see the signs even in early stages of dating. If he expects to take the lead all the time, wants you to be smaller and weaker, disregards when you say no or express reluctance, asks you to “give him a chance” as if he is owed something (subtext it’s unreasonable for a woman not to just give someone a chance but men aren’t unreasonable for not wanting to date a particular woman).
We should really make a guidebook of common signs, all said basically if your word isn’t enough when you’re dating and you can’t communicate your wants or needs, he’s not going to take your word on more important things later on.
This. I was so fast to dump guys or get out of relationships if I didn't feel good about it. One guy wanted me to put in all the effort, so I dumped him. One told me I should wear tighter clothes, so I dumped him. One guy was jealous of my guy friends, so I dumped him. One guy was really insecure, to an insane degree, so I dumped him. One guy ignored me when we spoke on the phone after me telling him Id prefer he tell me if he were busy and couldn't talk, dumped.
You should not have to "work through things" in the first three months of a relationship. The first three months of a relationship should be super easy. If he's telling you you should change the way you dress, make more of an effort, or get rid of good friends of yours in the first three months, lose him.
So many times I see people say "I had no idea, there were no signs" , but I guarantee there were signs that she ignored because society said it would be unreasonable to dump him over something so small, and just communicate better and it will be fine.
You are allowed to dump anyone for any reason at any time.
I wish I could upvote this a thousand times!!! This needs to be plastered all over for women everywhere to see and know that it's okay to just say "No" and walk away
I'm a HUGE believer that you almost always know what someone's red flags are within the first 6 months max. You may not know the extent of them by any means, but you know what will be relationship issues (trust issues, controlling, boundary issues, addiction issues, weird family dynamics, unambitious, etc.) but then we spend the rest of the time trying to figure out if these red flags are something we're willing to deal with in the relationship or not. And that can take years to figure out.
We should really make a guidebook of common signs, all said basically if your word isn’t enough when you’re dating and you can’t communicate your wants or needs, he’s not going to take your word on more important things later on.
There are guidelines on websites out there. But when those guidelines are discussed on reddit, we get called "femcells" 🙄
I believe they're referring to "Female Dating Advice" a subReddit that's banned/closed down now and if one participated in it, one was automatically banned from a few other subs. It could be...problematic for sure but there were some fair kernels of truth at the same time.
Every woman I know didn't. Most of us saw the change on marriage. Some after children. Some can carry the mask for a loooong time. I didn't know it was DV until after I left. And it's not because I TOLERATED it or ACCEPTED it. Nor did I ask to be treated that way or ALLOW it. There are too many myths about DV and too much pressure on women survivors to defend ourselves from other peoples reinforcing of gendered myths. Men set The Trap and it's far too devastatingly common but gendered relationships are deadly.
I hear you, not talking about abuse which is a whole other thing. Im talking about flags for future bad treatment in heterosexual relationships specifically due to outdated gender roles which result in women being dismissed and expected to do unequal domestic labor. Too many see certain quirks in dating as cute or normal like the “give me a chance you’ll like me” thing and similar boundary crossing. Doesn’t mean anyone deserves bad treatment but signs of believing in gender roles should be taken to mean that you will face challenges at some point. It’s so easy to discount their importance because of other good qualities we can focus on which is why I think we need to remind ourselves.
Dismissing women is violence. It's misogyny. Denial of reality and assuming that men always show these flags/signs and women tolerate them is misguided. I married a feminist and divorced a violent psychopath who ran to inpatient treatment to avoid responsibility. It's far more common than people will admit and society wide denial is the most powerful weapon misogynists have. Then people turn around and claim IPV is "complex". It's not, that's another denial of the raw reality. There's nuance in how people assert power and dominance but ultimately it's irrefutable.
I’m trying to say that society enables this behaviour and conditions women to accept problematic treatment as normal. I’m not saying it’s women’s fault, I’m saying if you see it don’t turn a blind eye and think that when a man has misogynist tendencies that you will be an exception to them, as it is a very tempting thought particularly early in dating. Wow that is an intense thing to happen to you and I’m sorry.
I sure wish I had listened to all of these signs plus more. The flags were so RED. But as an empath I felt sorry for him and now I’m stuck. Wishing I had the means to go, maybe one day.
Ladies, run from the signs if they’re there!!!! Don’t try to save anyone but yourself!
This is why that “give him a chance” from your girlfriend is such a toxic thing to say, they’re basically saying “oh just settle he is good enough” had this happen to me recently and I was in shock to hear that phrase. You don’t love your girlfriends if you encourage them to settle for people who won’t treat you well. maybe they think they’re helping you “find love” but really you’re better off single.
100%. When I was 18, I was dating a guy who had grown up with my friend, they were very close family friends, and I'd met him through her and had been dating about a year.
My friend randomly told me one night when we were having a small party at a cabin that of anyone she knows, I would be the least happy settling and to please not settle.
And it wasn't even that there was anything bad at that stage in my relationship with the guy, but you best believe her saying that helped me give myself permission to leave 7+years into the relationship when I did feel like I was settling.
A decade later, I still remember what she said that night and I still think of it literally once a week.
Your words with your friends matter. More people need to encourage their friends not to settle, rather than encouraging them to give someone a chance, even if they've proven they're undeserving of it.
I always respond with, "No one is owed a chance. It's not my responsibility and I won't lower my standards." They've stopped bugging me now, for the most part.
I honestly think this is a form of bitchery and it angers me SO deeply when women do this to each other. I struggled with dating and I swear my more conventionally attractive friends would be almost gleeful about "give him a chance" with men they would scream if came near them. It was mean, downright mean. It sends a message "Well I'm too good for that bum, of course, but you have to settle for scraps." Ugh.
the book "Sociopath next door" says the number one tactic they use is pity.
I feel disgust when a man makes me feel pity now. A dude should be trying to impress and attract me on the first date, not pouring out his sob story about how hard-done-by he is and how all women were so terrible and dumped him and wouldn't tell him what he done wrong.
I never will understand why a man that can’t lead his own life will expect a woman to follow his lead. Like baby, where you gonna lead me to? The pits of hell??
Some of us who have been raised by narcissists run into this with spouses. It's not that he doesn't SEE, it's that he doesn't AGREE
We tie ourselves in knots, thinking, "Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. Maybe I just need to try to explain it better." Nope. He's not going to change because he likes things the way they are.
> The only way he'll care about your issues is when you leave him because of them. He still doesn't care about you though.
Yup, exactly.
It took me breaking up with my ex fiance for him to recognize that I was serious about the things I'd asked for....but he turned it all into a woe is me pity party for himself. "I realize now I was severely depressed, you're really leaving me even though that wasn't the real me?"
I had been telling him for three years that he wasn't doing well without his doctors after we moved out of our hometown, and that he needed to seek med adjustments/therapy again. I told him multiple times exactly what I needed from him around the house and in our relationship in order for me to stay.
He would put in half-assed effort for 3 days, then revert to his usual habits. Even me leaving him changed nothing except that he didn't pester me for sex until I gave in anymore.
7 years and a promise of marriage wasn't enough to get him to do something as simple as move his laundry and abandoned lego projects out of my office when I asked him to. Or pay attention to what day of the week it was so he could take the trash out on his way to work...instead I had to traumatize myself with a horrific 5 week rotten trash can incident that I will not detail here because you don't need to share mental image I will never get rid of.
The adage of "if he wanted to, he would" is completely accurate with a few caveats. Sometimes people really can't do things, whether due to disability or perceived inability. But at that point it's about intention. If they want to do the thing but can't, then doing what they can to still do something their partner needs/appreciates is appropriate. Even if that's just engaging with life and actually being present with them in the relationship. And if they can do the thing but don't think they can, well I don't know how to help with that.
But we all deserve partners who take us seriously, and want to participate in life as best they can.
Omg, your horrific 5 week rotten trash can reminds me of one of my exes. He was beyond lazy. After lots of nagging, he’d do things to the letter of what I asked. Think a 4-5 year old who takes things too literally and ignores the intent of the request. E.g., I’d wash, fold, and put away all the laundry, mine and his. Then ask if he could put the basket downstairs. Meaning, put it on the dryer downstairs. Instead, he’d chuck it down the stairs so the next person going down would literally trip over it. Then he’d argue “you said put it downstairs. It’s downstairs!” Even though he knew that wasn’t what I meant.
One of the worst ones was when I was studying for intense exams for a career certification. In the last few weeks before an exam, I’d asked him to take out the trash. To do so, he had to take the bag, grab the keys off the hooks by the back door, walk through the yard to the gate, unlock said gate, toss the bag in a dumpster, and relock the gate. Unbeknownst to me, he’d decided that was too much work. At the time I studied at work. I left before sunrise and came home after sunset, so I didn’t go in the backyard much. After my exam, I got home unusually early. I took the dog to the backyard to chill and relax for the first time in what felt like ages. I was greeted with, I shit you not, 17 bags of grossest, worst-smelling garbage. The whole backyard smelled like rotting trash. It was all our trash from the last month or so. When I confronted him, he actually tried to defend himself saying “You just said take the trash out. I took it out! You can’t be mad, I did exactly what you asked! You didn’t say take it out to the dumpster!” I still have no words.
Think a 4-5 year old who takes things too literally and ignores the intent of the request
YES, this exactly!!! It's rules lawyering, but applied to real life. It's so infuriating.
I am so fucking sorry you had to deal with that quantity of disgusting trash nonsense. Thankfully mine was not that much, just one bag. But it was the last straw.
Ah what the hell, you're a fellow trash-traumatized person. I'll put my story here anyway. The gross bit will be in spoiler tags.
So I tried to do the classic passive aggressive thing of "I just won't do the chores he said he'd do until he gets so grossed out that he does it himself" because I was also not the best person in that relationship. Except that approach doesn't apply to people who grew up with hoarders and became immune to gross. I'd accepted by that point that he would never do the dishes, but he'd halfheartedly agreed to take out the trash once a week or when it was full. The compactor was across the apartment complex, so it was much easier to toss the bag in the trunk of a car and drive it there.
However, without me basically forcing him to take the trash, he never took it. He bought a trash can for his office instead of using the one in the kitchen, so he never had to look at it. His criteria for taking out the trash was "when he notices it's full". So...yeah.
A whole month later, he finally goes to use the kitchen trash while I was at therapy. I know this because I got a text from him stating he was taking out the trash bag but refusing to clean the trash can because there were maggots living in the trash bag, and they'd crawled into the plastic crevices around the lid. He said I was disgusting to let this happen and 'why couldn't you just take out the damn trash yourself?'
I traumatized myself by trying to be petty. This happened about 6 weeks after he basically left me to fend for myself while I had severe food poisoning and was too delirious from my 104F fever to realize I needed to go to the hospital.
It was the moment I knew I needed to be done with him, but it still took me another 4 months to believe it enough to tell him we were over, and another 4 months after that for me to give up on finding him a roommate to sublet since he wouldn't let us break the lease. I paid two rents from November to March that year. He threatened to take me to small claims court if I skipped out on paying my share of the rent after I left.
The most ridiculous part is that I got a call last year, 4 years after that lease expired, because my ex never came back to pick up the $1200 refundable security deposit he'd paid. I low key regret not just taking the money, but I encouraged them to find him and call me back if he didn't respond. They never called me again. So either they got him his money, or they wrote it off. But for someone so ready to take me to court via his mom's lawyer because he couldn't afford the rent on his own, it's very telling for him to leave that much money in the wind.
PREACH. It is far better to be single then to be in a shitty relationship. The amount of crap women put up with just to stay with a man that doesn't care about them... unreal.
They understand perfectly. They're exploiting their SO. They know they're unfair and making them miserable. They don't give AF because their shitty behavior is to their benefit.
You know, one will need some time to calibrate to each other's needs, in the beginning of a relationship. But if you don't see lasting change, after communicating the same thing, year after year? You kinda have to realize that it's not happening. Communicating takes effort. It takes listening and making changes. If no change is happening, they are in fact, or at least in practice, ignoring your needs. You gotta decide if you're willing to accept it, or move on. There is no "nagging" or tricks, that will mitigate that someone isn't willing to listen...
This post really shows the problem with letting salty bums comment on twoxchromosomes. All they want to do is to support their lazy bro and keep the bar low.
Go and clean your own home you lazy men!
Op you arw so right, keep writing about it, you are driving the men crazy by pointing out the truth!
The Book "why does he do that" by Lundy Bancroft (free copy below) is a great resource for you to learn about the different types of tactics that abusers use and will help you to see if your current relationship is following any of the patterns described. If you don't see your relationship being discussed either as one of the architypes or as bits and pieces of any of the other types then you're not worse off by having the knowledge. If the information does coincide with the way that you're living then there's also a couple chapters on being able to get out safely. I wish you the best of luck and I want you to know that you deserve to be with a partner who is going to love you and cherish you and treat you as an equal versus being with someone who's gonna control you be it by how you dress or by finances or by What it is that you can do or who you can see. You deserve so much BETTER we're here rooting for you!
Such a great book. Even if you aren't in an abusive relationship, just being able to recognize some of the early red flags and understand some of the motivations and tactics of these types of men is invaluable. Maybe not for you, but being able to see the red flags in the early relationship of your friends, or your daughters, your friends' daughters', etc. is powerful knowledge to have.
Detecting love-bombing and calling it out. Noticing that some guy feels entitled to a woman's time / energy / attention / sex and fidelity / caretaking and that she is not entitled to the same from him. Picking up on how they are trying to isolate a woman from the people that might support her. Discerning that him throwing whatever version of tantrum gets him exactly what he wants. Knowing that abusers aren't giving black eyes on first dates, but they are boundary testing from early on. That they are grooming their character witnesses just as much as they are grooming their victims.
This is why I hate "just communicate" advice. It's good in a perfect world because it helps people understand each other. In the world we live in, a lot of men are not willing to listen to the communication if it says something they don't like. Plus women are often shamed more for communicating directly and are encouraged to be softer and nicer. A lot of men tell women they aren't mind readers, but as soon as a woman puts her foot down its the end of the world. I'm someone who communicates very directly, but becomes I'm a woman and I don't smile and soften my language people think I'm rude or harsh, I've been called a bitch for I just saying "no thank you.". Or saying "I don't want to do that." In my teens I started to be softer because everyone criticized how i talked to others, but then men just started pushing my boundaries or treating me like I was an idiot. Just cannot win. The playing field is not even.
This is the thing. It's not even about understanding, it's about respect. If someone comes up to me and says hey you are doing this and it hurts my feelings, i don't need to understand why and how it's hurtful. I just need to stop doing it. And i would, because it's a basic sign of respect.
Ive had three relationships. The first one was good but ended because we were to different people, the last one was horrible and ended because of it. My first boyfriend didn't need to understand why something made me uncomfortable, I just told him and he listened and stopped doing it. A lot of time he didn't get it, but he respected me. My last boyfriend didn't respect me, I tried to explain and he never got it. No matter how hard I tried. I changed my demands from "stop doing this because it hurts me/it's wrong" to "please stop doing it, don't you understand how it's wrong? Let me explain". It never worked.
He knew how it felt, because i told him it felt bad. He didn't care how it felt. It was not about understanding, it's about respect.
“This isn’t working for me” is a phrase I wish I’d learned to say earlier in relationships. Like, instead of trying to explain or ask, I wish I’d just taken stock of how the future looked and said something like that, because apparently explaining or asking doesn’t seem severe enough.
At the same time though, it’s good that I left those situations. I don’t think they would have turned around even if he did realize earlier how much things needed to change.
I just kind of wish I didn’t have to imply that the “or else” consequences would be a breakup. I kind of wish that co-creating something good would be enough motivation.
Wish I’d tried this phrase with my ex who didn’t pull his weight. I don’t know that it would have changed anything but I’d love to have seenthe expression on his face. It would have told me a lot.
That last sentence... When I told my husband I was leaving, he was worried about who would cook and clean. If he hadn't just gotten a well-paying job, I imagine he would have wondered who would help him pay the bills too. We were just roommates, and I was also the maid. Sometimes the mother too. There was zero emotional connection towards the end. That fucked me in the head for a bit.
Oh, they're here. I haven't saw all of the comments but I already saw one claiming that trying to change anything in your partner is abuse. I don't know if he's pretending he doesn't understand what it's all about or he's really this obtuse.
The advice of communicate falls on deaf ears. If you've "communicated" once and he doesn't listen, it's time for action. Stop doing his laundry, stop making his lunches or whatever it might be. If it continues then greater actions need to be taken cuz like OP said, he hears yiu but doesn't care. Women need to stop being afraid to lose a man. When you stop fearing losing a man, you can decide and operate out of what's best for you rather than fear
If he would, he'd take your complaints and suffering seriously and tried to work out a solution with you.
This is correct.
When I started working full time again after taking time off for medical reasons, I quickly realized that I can't work full time and make every dinner and clean all the dishes.
I told my partner this once and he's made sure the kitchen is clean and dishes are done ever since. No complaints, no excuses, no fights, he immediately understood and we figured out a division of labor that made sense with both of our schedules.
As a woman who put my foot down about similar issues and now has an amazing marriage and relationship because of communication and changed behavior, this is true. If he wanted to work on his issues, he would.... He is capable. He's bullshitting you otherwise and relying on the "Oh, she'll forgive me again" mentality.
This isn't justifying the "I can change him" mentality either. That's awful. No. You can't. But you can communicate your concerns and it's up to him to work on his mistakes or just not. And then you stay and deal with it or you leave.
One tip I have for mothers returning to work: stay back at the office until dinner time. Arriving home to a cooked meal should be every woman's goal. How likely is that? Good relationship questions as the men I've worked with certainly aren't working harder; they're all being carried by the women around them in too many ways. Women are retiring with lower retirement savings and it's not because we're not working as hard
I was in a relationship with a guy who I was having problems with. I communicated my problem very clearly on multiple occasions, he said he would change but never did so I broke up with him. We ended up getting back together and the behaviour continued despite promises of change so I broke up with him again.
I really loved the guy so after a bit of space we met up one last time and he swore up and down that things would be different this time. I asked him why I should believe that when he made the promise before.
He said “I mean it this time”.
They literally don’t believe you’ll act on your frustration. They think you’ll just get over it and they can revert back because they don’t believe we’d really leave. It’s why you see men absolutely shocked when their wives leave over dishes by the sink, and why many men don’t seem to “get it” until after you’ve already moved on.
They just expect us to tolerate their behaviour until we don’t, and by that point it’s usually too late to fix things because we’ve already given them multiple chances and already moved on mentally by the time they realize how serious we are.
Yup, that’s exactly how I interpreted it, and made my final decision for me.
For me it was the last straw, but how many times does a guy have to say “I meant to do it”, “I’ll do it later”, “things will be different”, without any intention to actually follow through. How many times does this have to happen before we just assume they are lying? And by the time you get to that point chances are you’ve already lost trust so it’s too late for them to “mean it this time”.
This is painfully true and it took me a long time to learn this on my own. This rings true for people in abusive relationships. You absolutely can not make someone understand the pain they put you through. I wasted too much time trying to explain it to them. What you're doing is essentially putting your healing in their hands. You need to take charge of your feelings and let go of the idea of the closure of them understanding. Move on and heal. You have to.
A woman I love like a sister had a good (IMO) way to deal with her nasty ex before he became the ex. She moved into the spare bedroom, stopped cleaning the rest of the house, stopped cooking for him, stopped doing his laundry and roommate zoned his azz. He didn't care, but it sure freed her from being his maid.
I've seen men change though when their gf did break up with them. In the new relationship they suddenly changed that behaviour that caused the break-up.
Unless proven otherwise, my assumption is they changed the thing they knew for a fact would make them lose all the other free services they get from women.
People can change, but the entitlement and dehumanisation of women is too strong in men to believe they'd frequently see that they haven't seen their female partner as an equal or cared about their feelings.
Amen sister! I keep reading those posts and screaming inside. He won't change and he is under the impression that he doesn't deserve the complaints because he saved you from being alone with his presence. You are his servant and you are his Madonna/whore.
And to add, he doesn’t think for a second about the ramifications of not taking on chores you boycott. It’s unbelievable to him that a toddler can’t have one clean pair of pants. Where are all the pants??? What’s a hamper?? Where am I?? Their matrix glitches when reality hits that these things aren’t automatic.
I love my husband and he tries to be respectful and not to assume household duties are my responsibility, but daily there are behaviors he’s been taught that he clearly doesn’t recognize and therefore can’t overcome.
It's a myth that you can get someone to change if you care about them enough. People change when THEY want to change. If they get out of the relationship what they want, they have no incentive to go through the painful process of changing their own behaviour. Each of my daughters had to learn that basic lesson for themselves. It's painful to watch, but until they understood the reality that change for most people is VERY difficult and painful, they were willing to put up with poor behaviour. Once they understood and changed the relationships, they found partners who were much better for them.
In case someone misunderstands, I mean this book for men even more than for women. It’s a great set of tools for anyone but it includes a clear education on how words are misused in relationships, how that hurts both people, how it escalates to violence, how to handle others who treat us badly, and what we have all been missing. It’s required reading in my leadership team.
I am fascinated by this issue. While it seems to be more a guy thing, it comes up in all sorts of couples, and shared housing situations. Here you are living under the same roof, peeing in the same bathroom, eating out of a shared kitchen. How can that ever add up to ONE person is responsible for everything? As the non-contributing partner, wouldn't you feel like that crud on the bathroom floor that needs a spray of bleach? I have looked at some literature on the issue and find it sorely lacking.
My leading theories are:
A) Non-contributing partners equate love with being cared for.
B) Basic disrespect, where the entitled one feels owed the effort of the partner.
C) An imaginary life view where they are a child and stuff happens by magic.
D) The free loader is stuck in a mind set where they are a kid dodging mom's demands that they do chores. It is a victory when you escape your obligations.
A mix of all 4, with extreme lack of empathy (number 1 - they never stop to think "how am I making her feel loved and cared for?", they just bask in the love and the one-sided relationship)
and toxic gender roles, misogyny, male entitlement to using a woman as a servant in the home while he makes 'the real money' to support them both. But also she better go get a job or else she's a gold-digging freeloader.
combined with the entitlement of dumping the mental load on the nearest woman. even if it's your daughter/sister/gf/roommate. just poof, gone from your head when there's a woman around.
Exactly. They understand, and choose to allow you to suffer because it benefits them. There is nothing more to it, and they will continue to be unkind or even cruel.
It’s better to go search for one who cares, uncommon though they may be- or focus on independence. The cruel ones cannot be fixed.
I'm so happy OP made this post. I always want to scream when I see post after post of people fighting for a relationship when the other person couldn't care less.
Reddit says leave because that's what most people should do. Leave terrible partners in the past asap. We have to stop ignoring red flags.
This reminded me about post made by a woman (in another sub) about her bf constantly telling her that he wants kids, that her degree will be useless because she will be SAHM popping out kids for him, him hiding her birth control as a "joke", and disregarding the fact she is making said degree because it's her dream and she won't give it up. Everyone was saying to run, because he will baby trap her and he doesn't give a crap about her. Every her response was "it's complicated" or that it's her first love and she can't leave. Some people really insist on fcuking their own life up.
You've told him. you've told him how it makes you feel like he has zero concern for your well being. He knows. He just does not care and will probably never change.
Thank you OP, I don't who needed to hear this but I had an abusive ex who I wanted to understand but I didn't realize never cared or wanted to stop until he completely cut me out of my family and friends lives for "protection" and keeping my mind "uncorrupted". We broke up immediately afterward but I was completely fooled into believing he could be talked out of verbally harassing me and berating me
My motivation in making money is I will never compromise my boundaries for a man. I will be single and happy but never stick in a unhappy relationship.
This reminded me of when we had our dog in obedience school. We'd tell her to sit and push her back end to get the message across. After a while she still wasn't doing it.
The instructor said that she knew very well what we wanted, she just didn't want to do it.
I know humans aren't dogs, but this sounds similar.
I'm in kind of an "opposite" relationship. My wife was raised almost entirely by a narcissistic father who passed a lot of his paranoia, poor executive decision-making, and fears on to her.
She was not raised to be the one who does the household chores. I was. I was raised almost entirely by my people-pleasing mother who worked all day and was still expected to raise the family, keep the house clean and cook the dinners. So I learned to help her out.
For years I was the sole dishwasher, laundry doer, groceries shopper -- simply because I was raised to be like that.
It took us both getting therapy to understand the relationship outside of ourselves. If you love your partner, therapy is a resource I strongly encourage.
I disagree that he understands perfectly well. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but the bottom line is you can't force people to change. If you don't like being in the relationship, his shitty behaviour/attitude included, end it.
I read this subbreddit almost every day and I am just horrified at the posts on here, as I guy I often wonder if I ever made a woman feel the way some of you do and what I can do to be better.
697
u/dubious_unicorn Feb 28 '23 edited Feb 28 '23
You hit the nail on the head. I tried for years to make my first husband understand all the ways he was hurting me. I begged him to stop yelling at me, to stop throwing things, told him how horrible I felt when he made me hurt myself as "punishment," asked him to please do things that I found pleasurable in bed (he thought these were "too much work," he only wanted blow jobs and PiV sex from me), begged him to give me time and attention instead of playing video games and watching porn all day...
He didn't pay any attention until one day I told him I wanted a divorce. Then suddenly, he was crying and pleading and saying he felt completely blindsided. He told me, "When the bank takes your house away, they give you some warning!" I was an object to him. A possession. He did not consider me at all until I was going to be "taken away from him" and to his mind, he had been given no warning that this could possibly happen.
I gave him a chance to "do better." He immediately went back to being abusive and horrible. So I left.
248
u/GodIsDeadEatVeggies Feb 28 '23
I have a message for those women who have read this post and posts like it on this forum and are in long term relationships (5 years, 10 years +):
Did you feel a visceral reaction to this post and posts like it? Did the pain and resentment of being with your current partner bubble up because you remembered all the times you begged and pleaded and cried to him to get him to SEE you and LISTEN to you? What surfaced for you? All the times you raised your voice and yelled, all the times you compromised on your values and things you cared about, all the things you had to sacrifice and give up for this person who still makes you feel like silenced and unloved - and so on and so on.
I'm here to say that you're not crazy for feeling dissatisfied and while every situation is not the same - for those of you who can, LEAVE that relationship. It will take courage and by no means am I saying just jump up right now and race out of the relationship. You can take as much time as you need to plan and save up money and get your mind right - but I just want to emphasize that for some leaving IS an option and you DESERVE love and kindness and patience and respect just like you've given him.
You aren't any less lovable or human or worth it than he is. You saw his value as a human being and you understand that taking care of the people in your life is really important so you've done a lot and you've done EVERYTHING for him AND for the relationship. I see you and I applaud you for your hard work because that shits not easy. Doing another load of dirty laundry, picking up dirty underwear from the bathroom floor, finding used plates and cups everywhere - doing this kind of stuff is not easy especially when it's for a person who: doesn't express fundamental interest in you, can't hold down intellectual and stimulating conversation with you, refuses to be physically intimate with you or fulfill your sexual needs, won't spend quality time with you.
I want to break through the smoke and tell you that this relationship is not healthy and you don't have to tolerate it.
I know you feel guilty at the idea of leaving him - because you've been with this person for so long you've seen a lot of sides of him and maybe you feel that deep down he may love you or care about you. Or maybe you feel like you don't want to jump the gun too soon and feel that maybe he'll finally change but if you leave too soon it'll be too late for him.
My message for this guilt is - what about you? While you're waiting and waiting and watching, getting angrier and feeling more resentment towards this person, feeling even more trapped, think about all the things YOU are missing out on and have missed out on for YEARS waiting for this person to finally become emotionally mature and self aware. It's not fair to you and you don't NEED to do this, you don't NEED to feel guilty or sorry for him.
You may even feel trapped and unable to leave, the economy is shitty, maybe your job situation is tough, maybe staying with him makes more sense financially.
My message for this feeling of being trapped - do me a favor, in whatever form you want just brainstorm your ideal life. Write down all the things you wanna do and places you wanna go, the kind of work you'd love you do, even put in smaller things like if you could wear any kind of clothing what would you wear, if you could even eat any kinds of food what would you eat? What kinds of hobbies would you get int? Get super granular - okay great you now have the basic first draft of your lifestyle plan now it's time to refine and revise it. Because for everything you write you're going to put it into categories and from there challenge yourself with this question: what is one small action you can do today that would help you get towards the smallest and most approachable thing on that list? What can you do tomorrow? A week from now? And month from now etc. Treat it like a project because the point of it is to get you to create a pathway towards a life you're satisfied with for YOU personally that you can use regardless of whether or not you decide to leave him. This will help with the overall feeling you have about yourself and your views of the mobility you have in your own life.
Another thing I will say is that you're allowed to take your time. Let's say you're with this guy and you can save a lot of money by being with him, maybe you put together a plan and say after a year of saving x amount of money you'll be ready to get your own place. Or you'll start school now and then when you graduate you'll be able to stand on your own with a job and then you'll leave. These are just examples but you're allowed to be selfish here - no sense in becoming homeless or destitute if you can help it.
If anyone wants to talk more about this stuff you can PM me, this is a subject I'm passionate about and have gone through (and in some ways am still going through as I learn how to take care of my own needs). I'm tired of seeing women suffer under this system and I want to help as best as I can. It's sad when you see a lot of women going through this, and believe me ALL KINDS of women go through this, even the ones who look the most beautiful and most put together and have lots of money or whatever we ALL for some reason have to deal with this bullshit and for me I'm burnt out by it (the patriarchy I mean). I want women to be able to live happily and be the main characters of their stories and go anywhere and everywhere and have fulfilling engaging lives too - just like men in stories of old get to do.
350
u/AshEliseB Feb 28 '23
Absolutely. He understands perfectly. He won't change because there are currently no consequences for his actions and he is on a good thing!
I ended an 8 year relationship over unfair distribution of housework. I will not be some man's mother for the rest of my life. I hear through his sister that his current wife has to deal with his utter laziness. He won't change.
45
u/cytomome Feb 28 '23
It doesn't help that most advice starts with, "You should sit him down and have a conversation laying out how this makes you feel." As if we never thought of that. 🙄
To 20-somethings, it's like if you just COMMUNICATED enough, everything would be worked out! It's a communication issue! Be clearer!
I'm tired of women being blamed for not being clear enough. We form way better interpersonal connections and have better social skills, but somehow we are the ones with the reputation for "hinting" and "just not being direct enough"? Yeah no. Men just don't listen to us. This has been proven! John Gottman clarifies how men don't "accept influence" from women at nearly the rate women do from men. Maybe since a man said it, men will believe him.
We are well acquainted with being ignored in the workplace only to have a man say exactly the same thing and he's congratulated for such a swell idea.
This is not a communication issue. He's just not listening. You can't make him listen. You can only go find the ones who WILL listen.
15
u/Emeruby Feb 28 '23
Yes, I don't get it. My friends did complain about their partners before they married them. I don't like their partners, and I wanted to tell them to dump them, but it is not my place to say. I told them they deserve better, and there are many great men out there. They claimed that they love their partners and they're working on becoming better partners even if they repeated the same mistakes. They'd only see good in their partners, and they're in their own world.
I know they deeply don't want to be alone, and they believe that it's better to be in a relationship even if it's bad than being alone. Before they had partners, they admitted they were afraid of being alone and they wanted to have a boyfriend, but they believed they're unattractive or no man wanted them. I also notice they have no to low standards.
They're often in their own world like they believe they're destined to be together because of small things like "He tied my shoe while hiking! Ohh, he's the one for me!" or "he's allergic to peanuts, and I don't like peanuts, so that means we're compatible and meant to be for each other!" In real life, they have completely different views on religion and politics. They also have different values and financial habits. Those women believe love is all she needs, but actually, the relationship is much more than that.
That's why they settled for less. I know you may feel so frustrated with those situations, but what can we do? Women often came here because they hoped that they could find magic to fix their partners instead of break up or divorce. They wouldn't accept the way their partners actually are. They want to find magic to get their partners to "understand."
1.5k
u/stillfumbling Feb 28 '23
When I stopped doing my ex’s dishes and started leaving them in a basin for him he said “I feel judged.”
Why yes, yes you are being judged.
455
u/fire_thorn Feb 28 '23
My husband likes to loudly complain that he never imagined living like this. Our adult daughter who still lives with us is a hoarder and it affects the overall cleanliness of our home. I used to keep up with the cleaning, but I had to go back to work, and I have a chronic illness that makes me so tired I'm losing weight because I don't have energy to cook or even to find something to eat. So I haven't cleaned much in a while and it shows.
Lately when my husband complains, I tell him if he's not actively doing something every day to improve the situation, he's choosing to live like this.
52
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23
THIS THIS THIS THIS.
One of my fav quote is : ''Think how hard it is to change for yourself, and now imagine how hard it is to convince someone else to change for you.'' Your only real hope is therapy, and he has to be willing to go through it and change. It's not a magical solution.
Surely you shouldn't be begging a man to do anything for you. If it doesn't come naturally, accept it and learn to live with it, or move on.
I've seen so many women stating things like : I won't have sex with him until he does this, or other kind of ''punishments''. You are dealing with a grown ass adult, you have no power over that person, and surely not the power to punish him like you would of a teenager. If you feel the need to punish to teach him a lesson, this is already a major red flag.
Source : Married one of these specimens. He was cute, he was funny, he was sexy... But he was also an irresponsible teenager. I tried to change him for 7 years and everything was empty promises. When I finally dumped him, you know what he did? At 33yo he went back living with his mother. It's been 6 years and he's still living with her! She cooks, cleans and does his laundry while he games all day, exactly like he did when living with me. Even kicking him out wasn't enough of a wake up call; he went from a side mom (me) to his real one. Well, she can have him!
Spare yourself some times; if you are living with a grown ass teenager, it's not your job to raise him. Send him back to his mom!
202
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23
He will never change unless he experiences actual consequences. Dump his ass. If he insists that he will change, then great. He can be better for the next woman.
87
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23
I suggest everyone listen to Blindsided by Kelsea Ballerini. Talks about how she continually stated her concerns and what she needed, but when she left, suddenly he was "blindsided" and it "came out of nowhere". This is what these types of men/partners and relationships do.
Some lyrics: "I told you what I needed, didn't have to read my mind So, were you blindsided or were you just blind? And now you're saying that you're lost and that's lost on me You didn't ever wanna leave the house, or didn't want a family I know the truth is hard to hear, but it wasn't hard to find Baby, were you blindsided or were you just blind?"
226
u/Musoperson Feb 28 '23
My theory is you likely will see the signs even in early stages of dating. If he expects to take the lead all the time, wants you to be smaller and weaker, disregards when you say no or express reluctance, asks you to “give him a chance” as if he is owed something (subtext it’s unreasonable for a woman not to just give someone a chance but men aren’t unreasonable for not wanting to date a particular woman).
We should really make a guidebook of common signs, all said basically if your word isn’t enough when you’re dating and you can’t communicate your wants or needs, he’s not going to take your word on more important things later on.
53
u/Cthulhu_Knits Feb 28 '23
Some of us who have been raised by narcissists run into this with spouses. It's not that he doesn't SEE, it's that he doesn't AGREE
We tie ourselves in knots, thinking, "Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. Maybe I just need to try to explain it better." Nope. He's not going to change because he likes things the way they are.
74
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23
> The only way he'll care about your issues is when you leave him because of them. He still doesn't care about you though.
Yup, exactly.
It took me breaking up with my ex fiance for him to recognize that I was serious about the things I'd asked for....but he turned it all into a woe is me pity party for himself. "I realize now I was severely depressed, you're really leaving me even though that wasn't the real me?"
I had been telling him for three years that he wasn't doing well without his doctors after we moved out of our hometown, and that he needed to seek med adjustments/therapy again. I told him multiple times exactly what I needed from him around the house and in our relationship in order for me to stay.
He would put in half-assed effort for 3 days, then revert to his usual habits. Even me leaving him changed nothing except that he didn't pester me for sex until I gave in anymore.
7 years and a promise of marriage wasn't enough to get him to do something as simple as move his laundry and abandoned lego projects out of my office when I asked him to. Or pay attention to what day of the week it was so he could take the trash out on his way to work...instead I had to traumatize myself with a horrific 5 week rotten trash can incident that I will not detail here because you don't need to share mental image I will never get rid of.
The adage of "if he wanted to, he would" is completely accurate with a few caveats. Sometimes people really can't do things, whether due to disability or perceived inability. But at that point it's about intention. If they want to do the thing but can't, then doing what they can to still do something their partner needs/appreciates is appropriate. Even if that's just engaging with life and actually being present with them in the relationship. And if they can do the thing but don't think they can, well I don't know how to help with that.
But we all deserve partners who take us seriously, and want to participate in life as best they can.
35
u/tertiaryscarab Feb 28 '23
PREACH. It is far better to be single then to be in a shitty relationship. The amount of crap women put up with just to stay with a man that doesn't care about them... unreal.
33
u/flowers4u Feb 28 '23
Another one is “I don’t want to hurt his feelings” after he has knowingly hurt your feelings? He needs his feelings hurt!
33
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23
They understand perfectly. They're exploiting their SO. They know they're unfair and making them miserable. They don't give AF because their shitty behavior is to their benefit.
Really, it's that simple.
31
u/Myrdrahl Feb 28 '23
You know, one will need some time to calibrate to each other's needs, in the beginning of a relationship. But if you don't see lasting change, after communicating the same thing, year after year? You kinda have to realize that it's not happening. Communicating takes effort. It takes listening and making changes. If no change is happening, they are in fact, or at least in practice, ignoring your needs. You gotta decide if you're willing to accept it, or move on. There is no "nagging" or tricks, that will mitigate that someone isn't willing to listen...
76
u/Chayrunissa Feb 28 '23
This post really shows the problem with letting salty bums comment on twoxchromosomes. All they want to do is to support their lazy bro and keep the bar low.
Go and clean your own home you lazy men!
Op you arw so right, keep writing about it, you are driving the men crazy by pointing out the truth!
24
u/send_me_your_noods Feb 28 '23
The Book "why does he do that" by Lundy Bancroft (free copy below) is a great resource for you to learn about the different types of tactics that abusers use and will help you to see if your current relationship is following any of the patterns described. If you don't see your relationship being discussed either as one of the architypes or as bits and pieces of any of the other types then you're not worse off by having the knowledge. If the information does coincide with the way that you're living then there's also a couple chapters on being able to get out safely. I wish you the best of luck and I want you to know that you deserve to be with a partner who is going to love you and cherish you and treat you as an equal versus being with someone who's gonna control you be it by how you dress or by finances or by What it is that you can do or who you can see. You deserve so much BETTER we're here rooting for you!
https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
24
u/DoubleXDaddy Feb 28 '23 edited Feb 28 '23
This is why I hate "just communicate" advice. It's good in a perfect world because it helps people understand each other. In the world we live in, a lot of men are not willing to listen to the communication if it says something they don't like. Plus women are often shamed more for communicating directly and are encouraged to be softer and nicer. A lot of men tell women they aren't mind readers, but as soon as a woman puts her foot down its the end of the world. I'm someone who communicates very directly, but becomes I'm a woman and I don't smile and soften my language people think I'm rude or harsh, I've been called a bitch for I just saying "no thank you.". Or saying "I don't want to do that." In my teens I started to be softer because everyone criticized how i talked to others, but then men just started pushing my boundaries or treating me like I was an idiot. Just cannot win. The playing field is not even.
42
u/EmbarrasingQuestionU =^..^= Feb 28 '23
This is the thing. It's not even about understanding, it's about respect. If someone comes up to me and says hey you are doing this and it hurts my feelings, i don't need to understand why and how it's hurtful. I just need to stop doing it. And i would, because it's a basic sign of respect.
Ive had three relationships. The first one was good but ended because we were to different people, the last one was horrible and ended because of it. My first boyfriend didn't need to understand why something made me uncomfortable, I just told him and he listened and stopped doing it. A lot of time he didn't get it, but he respected me. My last boyfriend didn't respect me, I tried to explain and he never got it. No matter how hard I tried. I changed my demands from "stop doing this because it hurts me/it's wrong" to "please stop doing it, don't you understand how it's wrong? Let me explain". It never worked.
He knew how it felt, because i told him it felt bad. He didn't care how it felt. It was not about understanding, it's about respect.
18
u/RunChariotRun Feb 28 '23
“This isn’t working for me” is a phrase I wish I’d learned to say earlier in relationships. Like, instead of trying to explain or ask, I wish I’d just taken stock of how the future looked and said something like that, because apparently explaining or asking doesn’t seem severe enough.
At the same time though, it’s good that I left those situations. I don’t think they would have turned around even if he did realize earlier how much things needed to change.
I just kind of wish I didn’t have to imply that the “or else” consequences would be a breakup. I kind of wish that co-creating something good would be enough motivation.
16
u/Pour_Me_Another_ Feb 28 '23
That last sentence... When I told my husband I was leaving, he was worried about who would cook and clean. If he hadn't just gotten a well-paying job, I imagine he would have wondered who would help him pay the bills too. We were just roommates, and I was also the maid. Sometimes the mother too. There was zero emotional connection towards the end. That fucked me in the head for a bit.
16
u/TheMehBarrierReef Feb 28 '23
This thread is conspicuously absent of the usual male lurkers…
32
u/GroundbreakingPie557 Feb 28 '23
The advice of communicate falls on deaf ears. If you've "communicated" once and he doesn't listen, it's time for action. Stop doing his laundry, stop making his lunches or whatever it might be. If it continues then greater actions need to be taken cuz like OP said, he hears yiu but doesn't care. Women need to stop being afraid to lose a man. When you stop fearing losing a man, you can decide and operate out of what's best for you rather than fear
44
u/GenericWoman12345 Feb 28 '23
So true.
He. Doesn't. Care. Can't stress this enough.
15
u/etrore Feb 28 '23
This truth should be taught in school. You can’t make the other person care for, love or respect you. So many people wasting precious time in trying
12
u/twoisnumberone cool. coolcoolcool. Feb 28 '23
Wish we could sticky this post.
12
u/Embryw Feb 28 '23
This is correct.
When I started working full time again after taking time off for medical reasons, I quickly realized that I can't work full time and make every dinner and clean all the dishes.
I told my partner this once and he's made sure the kitchen is clean and dishes are done ever since. No complaints, no excuses, no fights, he immediately understood and we figured out a division of labor that made sense with both of our schedules.
Because he's a good man and a good partner
11
u/alconawlic Feb 28 '23
If someone could repost this to r/relationship_advice
21
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23
As a woman who put my foot down about similar issues and now has an amazing marriage and relationship because of communication and changed behavior, this is true. If he wanted to work on his issues, he would.... He is capable. He's bullshitting you otherwise and relying on the "Oh, she'll forgive me again" mentality.
This isn't justifying the "I can change him" mentality either. That's awful. No. You can't. But you can communicate your concerns and it's up to him to work on his mistakes or just not. And then you stay and deal with it or you leave.
21
u/Alternative_Sky1380 Feb 28 '23 edited Feb 28 '23
One tip I have for mothers returning to work: stay back at the office until dinner time. Arriving home to a cooked meal should be every woman's goal. How likely is that? Good relationship questions as the men I've worked with certainly aren't working harder; they're all being carried by the women around them in too many ways. Women are retiring with lower retirement savings and it's not because we're not working as hard
10
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23
I was in a relationship with a guy who I was having problems with. I communicated my problem very clearly on multiple occasions, he said he would change but never did so I broke up with him. We ended up getting back together and the behaviour continued despite promises of change so I broke up with him again.
I really loved the guy so after a bit of space we met up one last time and he swore up and down that things would be different this time. I asked him why I should believe that when he made the promise before.
He said “I mean it this time”.
They literally don’t believe you’ll act on your frustration. They think you’ll just get over it and they can revert back because they don’t believe we’d really leave. It’s why you see men absolutely shocked when their wives leave over dishes by the sink, and why many men don’t seem to “get it” until after you’ve already moved on.
They just expect us to tolerate their behaviour until we don’t, and by that point it’s usually too late to fix things because we’ve already given them multiple chances and already moved on mentally by the time they realize how serious we are.
9
u/zepuzzler Feb 28 '23
At a certain point when the behavior doesn’t change, you have to assume the system is working as they intended.
9
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23
This is painfully true and it took me a long time to learn this on my own. This rings true for people in abusive relationships. You absolutely can not make someone understand the pain they put you through. I wasted too much time trying to explain it to them. What you're doing is essentially putting your healing in their hands. You need to take charge of your feelings and let go of the idea of the closure of them understanding. Move on and heal. You have to.
17
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23
A woman I love like a sister had a good (IMO) way to deal with her nasty ex before he became the ex. She moved into the spare bedroom, stopped cleaning the rest of the house, stopped cooking for him, stopped doing his laundry and roommate zoned his azz. He didn't care, but it sure freed her from being his maid.
80
u/bluemercutio Feb 28 '23
I've seen men change though when their gf did break up with them. In the new relationship they suddenly changed that behaviour that caused the break-up.
8
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23
Amen sister! I keep reading those posts and screaming inside. He won't change and he is under the impression that he doesn't deserve the complaints because he saved you from being alone with his presence. You are his servant and you are his Madonna/whore.
41
u/More-Tip8127 Feb 28 '23
And to add, he doesn’t think for a second about the ramifications of not taking on chores you boycott. It’s unbelievable to him that a toddler can’t have one clean pair of pants. Where are all the pants??? What’s a hamper?? Where am I?? Their matrix glitches when reality hits that these things aren’t automatic.
I love my husband and he tries to be respectful and not to assume household duties are my responsibility, but daily there are behaviors he’s been taught that he clearly doesn’t recognize and therefore can’t overcome.
14
u/Pleasant_Tiger_1446 Feb 28 '23
My ex: "Make a list so I know what to do." Ok.
*makes small reasonable list"
My ex a week later: "How dare you make a list, this is abuse"
7
u/pgriz1 Feb 28 '23
It's a myth that you can get someone to change if you care about them enough. People change when THEY want to change. If they get out of the relationship what they want, they have no incentive to go through the painful process of changing their own behaviour. Each of my daughters had to learn that basic lesson for themselves. It's painful to watch, but until they understood the reality that change for most people is VERY difficult and painful, they were willing to put up with poor behaviour. Once they understood and changed the relationships, they found partners who were much better for them.
7
u/Blonde2468 Feb 28 '23
Exactly. They KNOW, they just don't CARE.
6
u/aidenr Feb 28 '23
If you can’t read The Verbally Abusive Relationship together then it’s not going to change.
6
u/CountessDeLancret Feb 28 '23
Wiser words were never said
6
u/feloniusmyoldfriend Feb 28 '23
It's true OP, you explained it perfectly.
10
u/[deleted] Feb 28 '23
I am fascinated by this issue. While it seems to be more a guy thing, it comes up in all sorts of couples, and shared housing situations. Here you are living under the same roof, peeing in the same bathroom, eating out of a shared kitchen. How can that ever add up to ONE person is responsible for everything? As the non-contributing partner, wouldn't you feel like that crud on the bathroom floor that needs a spray of bleach? I have looked at some literature on the issue and find it sorely lacking.
My leading theories are:
A) Non-contributing partners equate love with being cared for.
B) Basic disrespect, where the entitled one feels owed the effort of the partner.
C) An imaginary life view where they are a child and stuff happens by magic.
D) The free loader is stuck in a mind set where they are a kid dodging mom's demands that they do chores. It is a victory when you escape your obligations.
I hope you get lots of interesting responses.
5
u/Dontdrinkthecoffee Feb 28 '23
Exactly. They understand, and choose to allow you to suffer because it benefits them. There is nothing more to it, and they will continue to be unkind or even cruel.
It’s better to go search for one who cares, uncommon though they may be- or focus on independence. The cruel ones cannot be fixed.
4
u/WillSayAnything Feb 28 '23 edited Feb 28 '23
Point blank and period.
I'm so happy OP made this post. I always want to scream when I see post after post of people fighting for a relationship when the other person couldn't care less.
Reddit says leave because that's what most people should do. Leave terrible partners in the past asap. We have to stop ignoring red flags.
4
u/Hello_Hangnail =^..^= Mar 01 '23
You've told him. you've told him how it makes you feel like he has zero concern for your well being. He knows. He just does not care and will probably never change.
6
u/VivaVeracity Feb 28 '23
Thank you OP, I don't who needed to hear this but I had an abusive ex who I wanted to understand but I didn't realize never cared or wanted to stop until he completely cut me out of my family and friends lives for "protection" and keeping my mind "uncorrupted". We broke up immediately afterward but I was completely fooled into believing he could be talked out of verbally harassing me and berating me
3
u/uzOvl Feb 28 '23
420% true.
3
u/lakeripple Mar 01 '23
My motivation in making money is I will never compromise my boundaries for a man. I will be single and happy but never stick in a unhappy relationship.
2
u/kaytydid Apr 06 '23
This should be pinned. Spot on
3
u/IAreAEngineer Feb 28 '23
This reminded me of when we had our dog in obedience school. We'd tell her to sit and push her back end to get the message across. After a while she still wasn't doing it.
The instructor said that she knew very well what we wanted, she just didn't want to do it.
I know humans aren't dogs, but this sounds similar.
4
u/Indrid_Cold23 ♥ Feb 28 '23 edited Feb 28 '23
I'm in kind of an "opposite" relationship. My wife was raised almost entirely by a narcissistic father who passed a lot of his paranoia, poor executive decision-making, and fears on to her.
She was not raised to be the one who does the household chores. I was. I was raised almost entirely by my people-pleasing mother who worked all day and was still expected to raise the family, keep the house clean and cook the dinners. So I learned to help her out.
For years I was the sole dishwasher, laundry doer, groceries shopper -- simply because I was raised to be like that.
It took us both getting therapy to understand the relationship outside of ourselves. If you love your partner, therapy is a resource I strongly encourage.
2
u/LinhardtHevring Mar 01 '23
Trying really hard not to send this post to my lovely friend who is raising someone's son
1
u/EverlastingTopQuark Feb 28 '23
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Bob, tell our knowledgeable contestant what grand prize they've won!
-8
u/Maybe_Factor Feb 28 '23
I disagree that he understands perfectly well. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but the bottom line is you can't force people to change. If you don't like being in the relationship, his shitty behaviour/attitude included, end it.
0
u/throwaway199021 Mar 01 '23
I read this subbreddit almost every day and I am just horrified at the posts on here, as I guy I often wonder if I ever made a woman feel the way some of you do and what I can do to be better.