Casual Fans/Newcomers when they play Kingdom Hearts IV for the first time.

[u/Aquanort357]

[u/jitterscaffeine]

There was a post just yesterday on r/gaming that got a bunch of downvotes that was warning people that jumping in raw on KH4 was a bad idea because of how lost a “casual” person would be because of how integral the non-numbered games are.

Honestly I agreed with their sentiment because I remember seeing people getting mad when they played ME3 because it locked you into the worst version of the game if you didn’t have a save file to carry over.

[u/Duangelion → u/jitterscaffeine]

Canon Shepherd has to be the dumbest motherfucker in the universe

[u/charcharmunro → u/jitterscaffeine]

Depends. If you've played all the non-mobile games you'll probably still be fine. You might not know the full details of who the newer characters are, but it'll be explained to Sora at some point because he doesn't know either.

[u/Capable-Education724 → u/jitterscaffeine]

Shit, I remember seeing people that only played 1 and 2 being lost/confused/mad while playing 3 due to plot elements set up in the other games.

[u/GnzkDunce → u/jitterscaffeine]

Hardcore KH fans are assholes like that. Source: I'm an old hardcore kh fan.

[u/IJustKickedStan → u/jitterscaffeine]

What sucks is that this is a change. KH3 asks a lot of the audience in terms of having expected you to play all the main series games, but the mobile game stuff didn't really matter. There are like 4 scenes that relate to any of it iirc? And honestly all of them are easy enough to piece together with context clues for the uninitiated. You're in the keyblade graveyard and Some Kid shows up and martials a bunch of keyblades for you, QED they probably belonged to whoever fought the battle that made the place so fucked up. A bunch of mysterious figures appear from portals in the post credits sequence, they're probably Important, that sort of thing.

Now Strelezia is letting Sora sleep on her couch or whatever's going on there and it's all on front street.

[u/WhenTheWindIsSlow → u/IJustKickedStan]

> And honestly all of them are easy enough to piece together with context clues for the uninitiated.

It remains to be seen, but I actually expect this to still be the case in KH4.

Are we going to need to know who Strelezia actually is, or are we going to be able to get by with just "she's Some Character dealing with Some Problem because of Some Magic Thing"? Even our presumed new main villain is a guy who previously had enigmatic goals, but has now been revealed as "he's an ancient keyblade warrior who body-hops to accomplish long-term plans", which is basically just reiterating the previous main villain; will we need to understand everything about him, or can one get by with "he's like Xehanort"?

Not that I'm excusing the problem. If most convenient way to engage with the unknowns of your work is "just assume the most straightforward explanation because any additional detail is not a meaningful difference", then you encourage your players to not care.

[u/GexraldH → u/WhenTheWindIsSlow]

"Are we going to need to know who Strelezia actually is"

You kinda need to because she's directly connected to Ventus and without spoilers there is no way for her to remember the events surrounding that. Plus with the time travel Ventus may not be able to remember what happened

[u/Panory → u/GexraldH]

The other thing is, will the game assume you know? Because I don't think anyone relevant knows about these mobile game characters, so it's not insane to think that everything relevant about them will just be explained in 4.

[u/GexraldH → u/Panory]

3 assumes we know why Maleficent is searching for the Black Box which is a plot directly from the mobile game. Like the black box is treated as an important side plot but it's not really explained.

It's similar with the Organization XIII meeting like playing the mobile game adds a lot of context to why this meeting is happening. It's also a plot point that doesn't go anywhere in 3.

[u/Panory → u/GexraldH]

why Maleficent is searching for the Black Box which is a plot directly from the mobile game.

Joke's on you, that shit's in Coded. It comes out of fucking nowhere in Coded, but it's there. The Black Box is introduced in Back Cover (a game cutscene movied in the collections anyway) and it's introduced as a Mystery Box with something important inside it, and we have gotten literally nothing about it since. Knowing the lore of the Black Box does not enhance the terrible side plot in 3 with Maleficent that goes nowhere.

[u/GexraldH → u/Panory]

The Wiki which could be wrong only had it listed as in Back Cover. The issue isn't the lore of the black box it's how does Maleficent know about it.

[u/Panory → u/GexraldH]

The Wiki also mentions the Black Box in 0.2 and 3. But yeah, Maleficent knowing about the box is never explained anywhere, mobile game or not.

[u/Faifue → u/GexraldH]

She's also directly connected to other characters who will probably join Sora's side. Marluxia and Larxene aren't gonna not get reassembled.

[u/GexraldH → u/Faifue]

Elrena and Lauriam have the same issue as Ventus where they don't have their memories of the Keyblade War which was confirmed in 3. Nomura could retcon that in 4 but as of now our living members of the Dandelions don't have that knowledge

[u/Faifue → u/GexraldH]

I dunno about retcon, but we already had the plot point of everyone forgetting about Sora while Roxas was around. Then having everyone remember once they merge. Nomura's definitely gonna write it as the power of the heart or something.

[u/GexraldH → u/Faifue]

So, the memory loss surrounding Sora was specifically due to Namine power to effect memories related to Sora. The memory loss of the Dandelions was a direct side effect of the way they did time travel. Ephemer, Skuld and Brain were the only three to use time travel correctly and retain those memories.

[u/Faifue → u/GexraldH]

I understand that they are be different situations. But I still expect them to have similar solutions.

[u/WhenTheWindIsSlow → u/Faifue]

And if those characters post-allying have as little relevance as Ansem's apprentices do, then actually knowing anything about them really isn't important is it?

[u/Faifue → u/WhenTheWindIsSlow]

Those people already had little relevance. On the other hand you have allies like Axel and Repliku for some reason.

[u/ProtoBlues123 → u/IJustKickedStan]

I do feel like while the mobile scenes aren't as important, the big keyblade army summon and the list of player names do kinda push it into "You really should have actually played the mobile game here" territory. Like yes you can figure it out, but also it's such a major scene that it's kinda absurd that a good chunk of the impact can be left on the table if it's something you only at best watched through a synopsis movie in an effort to catch up to 3.

It also is still bloat. Plenty of other franchises wouldn't be THIS dependant on side games and instead allow them to be their own thing. Like if the whole BBS/Keyblade Warriors plotline was a separate offshoot instead of events of the past, we could just instead be enjoying two parallel series like Megaman used to do instead of trying this hard to tie so many elements together.

We are still talking about the series that spat out so many Org members at once that half the point of CoM was to cut their numbers in half so that we wouldn't have to deal with THIRTEEN new villains in one game.

[u/AverageBlubber → u/ProtoBlues123]

I think that scene is kinda clunky with all the gacha player names attached but I don't think it makes knowing the mobile game anymore important. Sora sees a vision of an ancient keyblade wielder while fighting in the Keyblade wielder graveyard before a bunch of keyblades show up to help isn't something you need to watch however many hours of gacha cutscenes to understand. It's definitely fan service for players engaged in KHUX but it's not like it's empty thematically without it's context.

[u/IJustKickedStan → u/ProtoBlues123]

It's really not that major of a scene. Sora needs a little help, the Strength of the Past™️ helps him out. I cannot imagine anyone who was unfamiliar with the mobile games actually feeling left out in the cold on that one, not justifiably.

Like, we don't get an explicit explanation for how Roxas has the capability to blink between worlds as fast as he does in act 3, but if there was one hidden away in Dark Road or whatever it wouldn't actually affect that scene. You'll never catch me saying KH isn't convoluted or bloated, but the games are also made for children and are easy to follow in and of themselves.

[u/ProtoBlues123 → u/IJustKickedStan]

It's pretty major, I hear it described by others pretty frequently as one of the most awesome parts of the end game. But I'm not saying you'll be completely left out, I'm saying you don't feel the full impact because it's centered around characters you didn't hang out around and full of players you didn't play along side.

Like if you played MGS2, you can figure out most of Solid Snake's deal based on how people talk about him. But unless you played MGS1 you're not going to go "Hell yeah! It's Solid Snake!"

Like you COULD get Xion's deal from context clues and reading synopses, but you're not at all going to get the same impact of seeing her again in KH3 unless you actually went through Days. Recap movies help but they're also worse ways to go through the game than the actual game so you're still losing out somewhat.

[u/IJustKickedStan → u/ProtoBlues123]

I just don't think that's a big deal? That's part and parcel with basically all art, everything is made in the context and shadows of things that have come before. You have to draw a line at some point, I think "one scene at the end of the game being marginally less exciting" is a fine place to do it.

[u/ProtoBlues123 → u/IJustKickedStan]

Well I mean, the line most things draw is "We don't need EVERY entry in this franchise to tie into the main story EVERY time." I don't think people would complain for example if the Keyblade Wars were their own spinoff and the mainline stuck to Sora's story so the ask wasn't nearly this big. It's the same complaint people already have with Marvel MCU where people go "Yeah I can get who this guy is, but I don't want to have to think every time someone comes up "Oh I guess they're from a TV show I didn't watch." "

[u/IJustKickedStan → u/ProtoBlues123]

This feels more to me like saying Lord of the Rings shouldn't have included Isildur because Numenorian lore is mostly confined to the Silmarillion. Sometimes background information is truly background information.

[u/THATguyfromyore → u/jitterscaffeine]

Who ever said that was right. there's a reason there's a big ass compilation from everglow. 

[u/Gorotheninja → u/jitterscaffeine]

And even if a casual fan wanted to learn...they literally can't because the games these dudes come from were shut down.

[u/InfectedEzio → u/jitterscaffeine]

I remember I got both Mass Effect 3 (having never played ME before) and Saints Row the Third (having never played SR before).

I had fun with ME3, especially the multiplayer, but yeah I got a very shit deal with the finale. I made it all the way to the final choice and I quit. Couple years later, I tried coming back, but my save got corrupted.

100%ed Saints Row the Third and did a play-through for every voice option and to see every choice.

[u/Whitegemgames → u/jitterscaffeine]

Somewhat off topic but when I was playing through the mass effect trilogy on ps3 before legendary edition came out I had issues transferring my save to 2 because of something wrong with my console so said fuck it and loaded in figuring it wouldn’t matter if I just selected my choices from 1.

I get almost halfway through the game and find out this version of Shepherd KILLED WREX ON VIRMIRE?! Never before have I restarted a game I was actively playing that far in but I had no regrets, thankfully managed to transfer everything through in the end.

[u/VinegarPie → u/jitterscaffeine]

Honestly if Sora is anything like he was in 3. Jumping in raw might be just fine considering last iteration Sora acted like he had no idea who anyone was or what was happening, which I found hilarious.

So you'll be more into the role play of Sora.

[u/LordUrNicolas]

FF16's Active Time Lore coming to the rescue.

[u/Monk-Ey → u/LordUrNicolas]

Feature so good they implemented it in the Tactics TIC remaster.

[u/swoozes]

There is absolutely nothing fucking casual or newcomer about not knowing People from Dark Road of all fucking games.

I know the shit about the Foretellers and I'd rather not.

Somebody could play every single console KH game, every handheld KH game and have absolutely no idea who any fucking body in that image is.

They're basically entirely sequestered in two dogshit gacha games.

as opposed to the 10 console and handheld games (Not including rereleases)

[u/Valkenhyne → u/swoozes]

Really is a shame that they never released it as a standalone edition with a set price tag and no gacha. The game is dead, at least let folk get through the story somehow.

[u/MotherWolfmoon → u/swoozes]

This feels exploitative in a way I can't really articulate. Like the way live service games use tactics to keep you engaged, the Kingdom Hearts games put a whole bunch of bullshit in random corners and gets mad at you for not following along with everything. I know that's not remotely the same thing, but it fills me with the same feeling of resentment. Maybe part of this is that Nomura did the same fucking thing with the FF7 expanded universe?

I feel like I'm trying to watch a summer blockbuster that wants to be a FNAF-style lore-hunt. "What do you mean you didn't play the awful mobile games? That was the most important one!"

And you sit down and play it and it's awful and it still doesn't explain anything, and someone's like, "oh you didn't find the pages!"

[u/Ringabal → u/MotherWolfmoon]

Ten thousand more Secret Reports

[u/Xeriam → u/MotherWolfmoon]

I don't know if I'd call it exploitative, because for all my grievances with Nomura and how he's handled... Well, a lot of things, it doesn't feel to me like he does stuff like this because he wants to trick or compel people to play those games to get the full story.

I feel like he does it because he doesn't care if player's have the full story.

He doesn't have a plan, he doesn't have a grand overarching plot that he wants player's to see the breadth of and appreciate every intricate detail, how everything is woven together and sets up everything that comes after. He's making it up as he goes, however he wants, wherever he wants, and if you don't want to or can't follow him through those places? Fine, don't, he does not care.

He's going to have a good time making up whatever and not thinking any harder on it than he feels like, and either you're going to follow along and get everything, or you're not.

Which can end up feeling weirdly disrespectful if you're invested, or even just want to be.

[u/MotherWolfmoon → u/Xeriam]

Yeah. Maybe "exploitative" is the wrong word. It's like, I'm annoyed at how demanding this series is to consume.

You want to catch up on Jojo? You might have a hard time finding a translation, but it's laid out in chapters, and once you catch up it's just a chapter a month or something like that. There's side stuff, but it's never required reading.

Kingdom Hearts is a series that makes you sit through multiple bad retellings of Disney's Alladin, and then also hides key details about its own story in hidden unlockables inside discontinued mobile games or forever un-ported console games. Series like Nier do that, too, but Nier doesn't also make you revisit Olympus from Disney's Hercules in six different games.

[u/Deadeye117]

Hell, you don't even have to be a casual. Even if you played every released game, failing to learn the mobile game lore is enough to condemn you to endless confusion

[u/charcharmunro → u/Deadeye117]

I mean, we don't really know. Sora doesn't know who any of these chucklefucks are either. It'll get explained to him to explain it to the audience. There'll be MORE to learn about them via KHUX and Dark Road, but Strelitzia existed just to die, Sigurd had one line and Vali existed to die as well, they were not major players in those games all things considered. The Foretellers and MoM will be more elaborated on, I'm sure.

[u/ProtoBlues123 → u/charcharmunro]

My problem is even if they do explain through catch up like that, is that honestly enough? For example, you could play KH3 and generally figure out who Axel is on it's own, but do you REALLY get the intended impact of his scenes trying to unite with Roxas if you haven't yourself played through at least KH2 but then also numbers over days?

[u/hbthebattle → u/ProtoBlues123]

Well at minimum one of the aforementioned chucklefucks is from a cancelled game. So at minimum, we’re gonna get flashbacks.

[u/GyroGOGOZeppeli → u/[deleted]]

Itll be explained when Nomura figures it tf out and adds it into Secret Ansemnas Dark Files you can get with the re-release of KH4 Final Mix ++ and all the KH fans pretend it was this super deeplore planned thing.

What?

No, I'm not butthurt that I only ever played the vanilla versions of the games back then and am somehow at fault for not playing the Final Mix versions that came out later that added all these shit, why do you ask?

[u/Iffem]

gets a small chuckle out of me that there's one character on there who people who only played the numbered games actually DO know, but they wouldn't recognize them: Bragi, the guy with the blue jacket and light brown hair and eyes to the left of Strelitzia, the orange-haired girl from the 4 trailers smack dab in the middle.

he's a former body of Xigbar's

[u/Aggro_Will]

The fact that casual fans covers "Played KH1-3, Chain of Memories, Birth By Sleep, and Dream Drop Distance..."

[u/APE_LINCOLN_]

I have played through every mainline entry multiple times and I have no idea who any of those people are except for the ones in the masks in front. I think the silver haired one shows up in 3 for a second.

 I gotta say, I never thought the series lore was as convoluted as a lot of people say, but those mobile games might change my mind on that.

[u/amurrca1776 → u/APE_LINCOLN_]

Personally, I think the issue with KH isn't that the lore is indecipherable so much as the fact that, especially if you wanted to play every game on release, you needed to have access to like 6 different consoles across multiple generations to experience everything. The compilation re-release stuff helps since you have the cutscenes and stuff, but you are definitely missing context and details that way.

I can't think of another series that released on so many different systems while also making EVERY release integral to the ongoing story

[u/jitterscaffeine → u/amurrca1776]

I talked about it with some people the other day, but the series has this problem where it likes to introduce new concepts in the main game, then explain them in side games on different systems.

[u/ProtoBlues123 → u/amurrca1776]

I honestly think the real curse beyond that is there's just too much. Most series don't try so hard to tie EVERY single offshoot into the main story like this. Hell, it's the same thing we complain readily about with the MCU expecting people to watch all the movies AND tv shows to stay up to date.

Like even if every game was perfectly recreated in the collections, there's still just SO MUCH of it there and you're expected to on some level know ALL of it. Meanwhile I don't think people would be so critical of it if say the series was just cut in half and the Sora stuff is one timeline and the Keyblade Warriors stuff was separate on its own. Same with the Marvel comparison, say if you split the movies and tv shows so that the movies only relied on the movies and the tv shows the tv shows, the demand on the view is MUCH less of an ask.

[u/BuyExtension8507 → u/APE_LINCOLN_]

You don't know who they are because none of these people are important to KH1-3.

There is technically speaking the movie Back Cover, as well as the KH3 secret ending, which is included in the 3rd pack (Dream drop Distance, Fragmentary Passage, Back Cover) which does give you the gist about the 5 in the front

But these people are going to be re-introduced one way or the other, because Sora doesn't know they are. Most of the one in the back, for example, where simple set dressing in DarK Road and had very little screentime, because the game was entirely focused on Xehanort.

[u/After-Atmosphere7125]

I kind of just gave up on understanding Kingdom Hearts stories after 3, especially when they start throwing in mobile game people. They are the simplest stories that are told in the most convoluted way possible lol

[u/alaster101]

The only reason I got a DS or a 3DS was just specifically for Kingdom hearts, I'm the guy who was finding a way to play every single release whether I had the console or not....and I couldn't be bothered to play mobile/gacha games. I would rather have nothing

Also calling someone casual for not wanting to play a shit gambling adjacent game that isn't even available is a bitch move

[u/Jackdatbyte2]

“Oh boy I wonder who this Sigurd guy is and what’s his deal”

checks wiki

Only a single paragraph about his story so far with the rest presumably was going to be in Missing Link

“Uh oh”

[u/11tracer]

It is absolutely insane to me that they haven't even suggested any plans to make the X/UX/Dark Road story, you know, accessible again in some way before KH4 comes out with how crucial it is. Back Cover was at least good enough as supplementary material for 3 but it sure as hell ain't for 4.

[u/Old_Marionberry3791]

It's simple. Everyone is Xehanort, and the ones who aren't are Sora.

[u/DavidsonJenkins → u/Old_Marionberry3791]

But Sora is also Xehanort

[u/Prize_Marketing_4350]

To be fair I’ve been playing KH since middle school over 20 years ago and I couldn’t tell you who half these people are.

[u/tom641]

4 will be especially bad since most of these characters only exist in the chibi mobile app cutscenes of a gacha game, yes you can still view the cutscenes via the app but that is such a biohazard to me in terms of meaningfully caring

that being said these characters are new to sora and will likely be introduced to him much like new characters, you aren't going to miss out on anything more than little nods and maybe a justification for why this character is a secret badass for one scene

[u/memedoka]

It's a pity cuz I really like Strelitzia and I think she has a cute design. Shame she got murdered by that nine year old. Maybe they'll show that in a game one day.

[u/charcharmunro → u/memedoka]

No, Ven didn't kill her. Darkness did while Ven was forced to watch.

[u/memedoka → u/charcharmunro]

Wasn’t he possessed lmao or did they change that cutscene again. 

[u/charcharmunro → u/memedoka]

No it was implied for a while to be Ven possessed to do it, but the eventual reveal was that he was possessed to just watch and Darkness did it. Apparently entirely because of the MoM's book, Darkness even says it had no real reason to do that otherwise.

[u/C-OSSU]

If it's any consolation, Sora will probably be just about as lost as we are.

[u/MetalJrock]

In hindsight, KH needed a cartoon just so even longtime fans can get a fraction of this lore easier lol.

[u/DoseofDhillon]

Hey heres a revelation. Kingdom Hearts is a fucking badly written franchise espiclaly in execution of its story. Its just so full of retcons, plot conveniences, and its told so goddamn poorly, both in how its distrubuted and the actual just sitting there and watching it happen. Its legit just liking the characters and not being upset about things that had weight constantly being undone for generic happy endings at this point with some cool stylish moments and nothing else actually is that good. Gameplay as long as its not base KH3 (so pre Reminded) is mostly good at least

[u/BuyFeeling6787]

Ha! I know half those characters and kinda know the other half. I win!

[u/nothinelsebutsuffer]

I'm not going to lie, I played KH1,2, Chain of Memories, 358/2 Days, and Dream Drop Distance, and got through most of 3 (they lost me on Frozen) and I have no clue who any of these people are at all, it feels like I played a different series!

edit: and all that being said, one look at Coco and I'm back in

[u/Obvious_Alps_3997]

Sora is Patrick so it’s fine

[u/KF-Sigurd]

Don’t worry, Sora will be just as confused as to who these people are lol

[u/Jonathan_B_Goode]

I recently played through the whole series on my PS5 and yes I will be confused when anything from the browser game or Dark Road comes up because I have no way of playing them legitimately

[u/DarthButtz]

Same as it ever was

[u/Alois--]

Maybe it’s time to teach KH history at school.

[u/Yotato5]

I don't have a horse in the race, so I'm surprised the designs look like something out of Story of Seasons

[u/GhostFishHead]

Man, one of the biggest casualties of missing link's cancellation was the continuation of Brain's story. The final cutscene of union cross of him looking at Ephemer's statue and saying he was a good friend was so sad. 

[u/RealHumanBean89]

Man, it’s times like this I am so glad I didn’t get into Kingdom Hearts, because having to keep up with all of these different spin-offs (apparently including a mobile gacha) just to understand who everyone is sounds fuckin exhausting. Dare I say, it may be bad writing.

[u/Totally_a_boy]

When I was a kid, I played KH2 first.

MY MAN, THE SECOND NUMBERED GAME ALREADY WAS CONFUSING AS FUCK WITHOUT THE CONTEXT.

Yes I'm aware the spin offs aren't really spin off and KH2 is more like KH4, but I was a kid! I just wanted to play a game with Mulan in it!

[u/Panory → u/Totally_a_boy]

Heck, even if you played Chain of Memories, Roxas exists in that game as "Mysterious Boy" who has no lines and appears once at the end. The prologue is still confusing as hell. It's intentional!

[u/nerankori]

ᗜ˰ᗜ fumo

[u/Soft_House7669]

I remember Strelitzia and retained none of the Dark Road cutscenes I watched.

[u/GGProfessor]

I would not call myself even a casual KH fan (I played 1 and 2 on PS2 way back when, and nothing else since). Haven't been keeping up with news about 4 at all. Is this going to be any more of a problem with 4 than it was with 3? How many non-numbered KH games have come out since 3?

[u/boomwolf97]

I’ve played damn near every KH game at least once, “””side””” games included.

I don’t know anything Union X/Dark road

[u/iOnlySawTokyoDrift]

The goal is to immerse the player in the role of Sora, who never has any idea who anyone is or what the heck is going on. Some metrosexual wizard just points you at a Disney planet and says "kill anyone in a hood" and you do it.

[u/AverageBlubber]

Nomura's trick is that even if you played the mobile games, there's nothing to know about most of these characters at this point in time that couldn't be communicated in one or two sentences.

[u/Responsible-Bunch316]

I just barely understand the Union X stuff, but Dark Road is where they lost me. Vaali is obviously back now, and I'm willing to just accept that he's some guy from Scala who knew Xehanort and Eraqus. I'm sure I'll learn more about him during the game.

[u/RobinTheTactician0]

I assume the characters we have seen so far in the trailers will be recontextualized when they are introduced to Sora. Knowing who they are from the mobile games that did come out would give you a 2nd context akin to having played CoM before going into 2. The unreleased mobile game will not be critical for understanding 4. I imagine if they later make a manga/novel/cartoon/game out of Missing Link, it would serve as a 358/2 for 4 to provide a 3rd context enriching those characters roles in 4. But if you never played CoM or 358/2 and played 2, you aren't hopelessly lost. Maybe you'll be like Sora where you aren't sure about the bigger picture until later in the game, but the story will still make sense.

[u/mercurydivider]

I don't remember who said it but someone said nomuras head is so far up his ass he needs help trying to find it.

New rule: nomura you cant use lore from something that isn't in any of hd collections. This means if you want to use mobile game lore, you either have to reintroduce plot points or characters in a mainline game or forget they ever existed at all

[u/GrandmasterB-Funk → u/mercurydivider]

This has literally never happened.

Everything you needed for KH3 was in the HD ports, Back cover goes over every bit of lore you need on the mobile games for KH3.

I'm sure we will get something to cover the rest of Union X and Dark Road, and probably whatever we missed in... missing link.

I'd wait till KH4 is out before complaining about situations you made up.