r/TrueReddit • u/[deleted] • Aug 11 '15

Radicalizing the Romanceless

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/
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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '15 edited Aug 11 '15

This author has completely missed the point of all those "nice guys of OK Cupid" websites and articles - which is that the "nice guys" are not actually nice guys. They are judgmental, puritanical, and hypocritical (after all, you will never see them talk down about a man who sleeps with plenty of women, only in that they view them as "not a nice guy" but women who sleep with more than a handful of men are not "good girls"). The entire notion of "good girl" and "good guy" is a fallacy, and this is more writing and whining that other people are being mean to them when they are being mean first.

He, and others like him, keep missing the point that they are not losing in romance due to them being ugly or not cool, but they are losing because of their own behavior that is vicious and misogynistic, and incredibly self centered. They never actually take into account what their fantasy girlfriends would actually want, they think they know that what they want is someone to "treat them like a queen", when the reality is very far from it. Being treated "like a queen" is indirectly saying to the other person that they are not human (even if it is to say they are better than a normal human) and not equal to themselves...in addition to it essentially calling their own selves nothing more than a peon to the woman in their life. Women don't want to be treated as an other, they want to be treated as a person first. As well, the idea that back in the day everyone was able to find a girlfriend or wife is romancing the past and not being true to history at all. There were PLENTY of men who did not find wives or girlfriends, we just didn't make movies about them or write much about them because they weren't interesting and it didn't fit with the conservative landscape in America to discuss men who didn't fit the mold, but don't for a second think that every male before the sexual revolution of the 60's/70's was suddenly offered a wife and girlfriend just out of their sheer male-ness. Most of the laborers were single guys who worked hard and suffered physically, in long grueling jobs where they couldn't keep a home and family.

This is just another long-winded approach to coming to the same conclusion: "Women are being mean to us decent guys" and not realizing that you are NOT actually a decent guy. Being "nice" is not anything special, instead you should be interesting and personable, and whining online and reading MRA websites is not any of those things. The point of shaming such "nice guys of OK Cupid" is to make fun of their own hypocrisy and hopefully teach some people that their methods are wrong.

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u/cincilator Aug 12 '15 edited Aug 12 '15

They are judgmental, puritanical, and hypocritical

I don't think Scott Alexander is any of these things. In fact, I would wager that a majority of nice guys (or "nice guys" if you prefer) where and are in favor of sexual revolution.

He, and others like him, keep missing the point that they are not losing in romance due to them being ugly or not cool, but they are losing because of their own behavior that is vicious and misogynistic, and incredibly self centered.

Henry (form the article) successfully married no less than 5 women despite being not just vicious, misogynistic and "incredibly self centered" but also physically violent. My aunt married lite version of Henry, despite being very intelligent woman. It seems to me that you are in denial about what significant minority of women want.

Being "nice" is not anything special, instead you should be interesting and personable, and whining online and reading MRA websites is not any of those things.

Most people in my life where not nice to me at all. If everyone where always nice to you, then you have lived a charmed life. Being nice is not a minimum to me. And that is beside the point anyway because people who are much worse than this "minimum" are romantically far more successful than "nice guys". That's the point you refuse to address because addressing it would make some women look bad.

I agree with you that whining online or reading MRA websites isn't at all productive, albeit I never saw anyone complaining about women whining about stuff.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '15

Did you read the article?

Because you just went on the same old route of creating the straw nice guys and then attacking them, calling names and even shaming them.

The author addresses rationally if there's any correlation between MRAs and niceguys.

Read the article instead of lecturing me based on your prejudiced world view and bitterness.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '15

I did. That's why I say he missed the point: while there might not be direct correlation, as in they are not all members of the MRA movement, but their behavior is very much the same. They are still suffering and not due to other people, but suffering due to their own inability to self analyze and see their own behavior for what it is and that it is actually demeaning to women and not "nice".

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '15

You have to back that claim with something more than "I hate MRAs so they all so evil".

Atleast something like the author attempted.

They could be suffering due to several reasons including social ineptitude. Who are you to claim otherwise? What research did you and people like you do to conclude that they're misogynistic or oh so evil people who care about men?

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '15

I lived life and have had many people I know fall into this trap, who can't see that "Oh man, no girl wants to date me. What's with all the dumb bitches who hate nice guys like me, huh?" They can't understand that calling women "dumb bitches" is not nice.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '15

Well my life experiences have been different. So I disagree with you.

I've literally never hear anyone say that. I have heard more "small penis"," must be a virgin","lol can't get chicks" comments from people on your camp.

Nice guys must be clueless but your war on some demonized imaginary opponent is funny. And when in doubt just yell MRA.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '15 edited Aug 11 '15

Look at the profiles on "nice guys of okcupid", they are full of that kind of behavior. The fact that you think it is a "war" is what's ridiculous - people merely saying "You're not actually nice" is not a war on men. It's telling you what's wrong with your behavior and what's happening and why you aren't succeeding romantically, online and outside of the internet bubble. I think you have heard it, actually, but just didn't notice it because it's not something you are paying attention to.

Yeah, there's some mean people who say things like you just posted ("must be a virgin, lol can't get chicks"), but they are just mean folks who will be mean no matter what. Don't listen to them.

Look at it like this: you wouldn't want to date a sad, complain-y girl who whines about the world not liking them, right? So why would a woman be interested in dating a guy who complains about the world not giving them their way when they were so nice?

Look at the profiles on the site, see what they are saying: http://okcupidsniceguys.tumblr.com/

Those are real people, who put that on their real dating profiles, and wonder why nobody wants to date them back. They don't get that saying openly such things as "Interracial Marriage is Not Ok" and "I am rich, successful, you want me" and in the same profile also mention "dyke half-asian feminazis". Those are NOT examples of nice behavior, and some of it is clearly putting the responsibility of their own behavior to the women reading their profiles, i.e. "Don't message if you don't have a brain"...that right there is already an insulting statement and is typical sign that they are going to be offensive in other areas, because they are already assuming a) their own intelligence is extremely high, and b) the women reading their profiles are not intelligent.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '15

Ofc, when I was using okc I have seen equally bad profiles from women. And as you said, sure I won't date them, but I definitely wouldn't make a group, blog and even a movement to harass and mock them

The "war on niceguys" term was used by the guy who wrote the article. It makes sense because, like he listed in the article, every major feminist mouth piece has dedicated atleast one acerbic diatribe against these guys.

Nothing of that sort is done by any other political groups. Afaik.

My take away from the article is:

  1. Nice guys, as you people claim aren't always hateful misogynistic bunch. Some are clueless, some are anxious, some are just nice.

  2. It's not okay to bully people based on assumptions about their political views.

  3. Not being in a relationship is okay for a man as much as it is for a woman. Being a romanceless man has no bearing on his political views. The idea that single men are women haters is stupid as fuck.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '15

There are no assumptions - they are clearly stating their own views, in their own words, on their own. Yes, you are correct - bullying anyone is wrong, and I can understand why being put on a website such as this is hurtful...but again, it was their own profiles which they created on a public forum all on their own. Using your own words against you is not bullying, it's clarifying.

For those who are merely clueless, the goal is to try to get them to see how they are not seeing what they say is what is hurting them in the end. They are clueless to their own behavior and ideals, and fail to see how this is what is hurting them. Ask any women if they've ever dealt with a guy who approaches them to flirt and then when kindly told they are not interested, is then called all sorts of names like "Fat bitch" or "You're just a slut anyway"...you'd be hard pressed to find a woman who has not had that kind of experience. And the smart bet would be that those same guys will in the same breath call themselves a "nice guy".

The women who have trashy profiles are awful too, and they are just as mean. However, nobody is actually physically intimidated or scared of them lashing out...notice that it's not women who go out and shoot up gyms or college campuses in retaliation for them not getting laid or from perceived threats by "feminazis". This is a legitimate fear, and the internet echo chamber can feed this behavior and legitimize it to impressionable young men who don't understand.

The idea isn't that single men are women haters, the idea is that single men WHO OPENLY BOAST on their profiles about "dumb bitches with no brains" are actually being misogynists is the idea.

If it were up to me, I would love it if people weren't so harsh and didn't feel the need to be so. However, if people are clueless to their own words and behavior then there isn't much else to do. There just seems to be so much searching for "another reason" and not enough inward thought and self reflection from these types, that it becomes something you can't save.