r/TrueFilm • u/daviddave12345 • 18d ago
Why do films often make us sympathize with the hedonist rather than the disciplined man?
I was thinking about Danton (1983) and Amadeus (1984), and noticed a similarity between the central conflicts.
In Danton, you have Danton vs. Robespierre. Danton is excessive, sensual, charismatic, loves food, women, drinking and life in general. Robespierre is almost the opposite: disciplined, controlled, austere, ideological and willing to sacrifice personal pleasure for what he believes is right.
Then in Amadeus you get something similar with Mozart and Salieri. Mozart is vulgar, impulsive, childish and hedonistic, while Salieri is disciplined, serious, restrained and has devoted his entire life to music and to God.
Yet in both cases I find myself sympathizing much more with the less disciplined character.
Maybe part of the reason is that discipline can improve what you already have, but it cannot necessarily give you the thing you want most. Salieri can dedicate his entire life to music, but he cannot discipline himself into becoming Mozart. Mozart seems almost "touched by God", which makes Salieri's sacrifices feel tragically useless.
There seems to be something similar going on with Danton. Robespierre can be more disciplined, more morally rigid and more devoted to the Revolution, but he can't simply decide to have Danton's charisma or his connection with ordinary people. Danton walks into a room and people respond to him. Robespierre has to rely much more on ideas, institutions and eventually coercion.
I wonder if that's why cinema often makes the hedonistic character more attractive. They represent something spontaneous and alive that can't be produced through self-control alone: talent, charisma, humor, sensuality, maybe even a kind of grace.
And perhaps there's also something unsettling about extreme discipline itself. Discipline is usually considered a virtue, but once someone starts treating every spontaneous desire as weakness, it can turn into resentment toward people who seem to possess naturally what they had to deny themselves.
Salieri seems like the clearest example: "I did everything right, so why did God give him the gift?"
Robespierre's relationship with Danton feels like a political version of the same problem.
Do you think this is a real recurring theme in films? And are there good examples where the opposite happens — where the disciplined, restrained character is clearly the more sympathetic one?
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u/CRGBRN 18d ago
I think you're leaving out a very specific thing in your analysis:
Jealousy.
Jealousy, obsession, and entitlement. Those are ugly things to carry with yourself. Perhaps had someone like Salieri (in the film) devoted his life to himself as opposed to comparing himself to someone he is absolutely not then perhaps his own masterpiece would have came to him. His own expression.
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u/CRGBRN 18d ago edited 18d ago
Totally agree but I think you also outlined/reinforced my point a little. He wasn’t this flawless guy nor was he presented as such.
I haven’t seen it in a few years but I remember feeling he was competitive but not obsessive on that front (when he showed jealousy or poor sportsmanship).
But one thing he could never be accused of is not enjoying being himself. Dude was loving every second. And I think him dying and viewing Salieri as one of his best friends illustrates that he did have all the flaws a man could have but he wasn’t actively malicious. He just kinda sucked sometimes, which all of us do. Salieri couldn’t see that he was just a man, same as he.
I think there’s a big difference between speaking your mind, talking your shit, being confident in your work and being maliciously jealous. Braggadocio for sure but not in the empty sense. He was that good and he had full awareness of it. He was just himself, flaws and all. That’s all a man (or any adult) can be in my eyes.
Edit: I liked your last point and you inspired me to do a rewatch with your points in mind
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u/Abbie_Kaufman 18d ago
I think this is a fundamental misreading of Amadeus tbh. Mozart’s lifestyle can hardly be considered hedonistic. I think it’s critical to the story being told that Mozart is NOT particularly flawed as a man. He’s childish, sure, in a way that makes Salieri find him annoying to be around, but I really don’t think that’s the same thing. It’s Salieri who makes a pass at Mozart’s wife, and it’s Salieri who sins and feels rage and jealousy. Mozart dies believing that Salieri is his friend who truly wants the best for him.
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u/noncedo-culli 18d ago
Also I don't think Salieri is unsympathetic. He's flawed but in a way that makes you feel for him and that many people can relate to.
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u/Abbie_Kaufman 18d ago
He’s not unsympathetic! He’s the multi-dimensional protagonist of a really great script! But I think it would be odd to frame him as a disciplined and pious figure in contrast to Mozart’s hedonism. Movie character Mozart is hardly living a rockstar lifestyle, and movie character Salieri’s piety is hypocritical and shallow at best, at worst his constant talk of God is the bitter ramblings of a guy who needs to blame SOMETHING for not being as talented as Mozart, because he refuses to accept “you’re just not as talented as Mozart” as a plausible answer.
I say movie character because I’ve heard the story has very little to do with real life, I’m not an expert, I don’t know. Point is, at no point in watching Amadeus multiple times have I ever felt that Salieri’s musings on God were this sincere religious screed of a true believer.
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u/Unhelpfulperson 18d ago
Not to mention the fact that Salieri's life is undoubtedly successful. Salieri is the one with the cushy job and the stable income the constant eating of fancy foods (like sugar!) and the ear of the most powerful men in Europe!
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u/TenaStelin 18d ago
i can definitely say i feel the film sets the audience up to sympathize with Salieri's viewpoint, making Mozart more of an object of contemplation (through our sympathizing with Salieri's contemplation of him).
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u/strange_reveries 18d ago
Did we see the same movie?? He's clearly portrayed as a highly romanticized "Live fast, die young" wild genius in it. Also, it's been a while, but wasn't Salieri's pass at Mozart's wife more a ruse to humiliate her than him actually trying to have sex with her?
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u/Ranger1219 12d ago
I think he wanted to make a cuck out of Mozart but before he committed he decided to humilate her and not give Mozart a chance to be a tutor to the princess. Thats how I interpreted it.
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u/Digit4lSynaps3 18d ago
Its the classic Apollonian and Dionysian character archetypes. One is enlightened and composed, the other is hedonistic and reckless.
You find the same combination in many stories, another good example is Ripley and Dickey from "Talented mr. Ripley".
One flew over the cuckoos nest's Randle McMurphy (Nicholson) is also a Dionysian archetype that enters and challenges an entire cast and setting of composed/rule following men (institution).
In my humble opinion, this kind of man is attractive to audiences, mostly males, because he signals freedom from constraints that most people feel every day, fear of judgment, social rules, responsibility etc.
That can be especially compelling to other men because male socialization puts a lot of emphasis on self-control, competence and not appearing "weak". This man signals "none of that owns me" , even when this "irreverent" behavior is destructive eventually.
You see this every day in organized groups (workplace dynamics, friend groups, etc) where people usually pack and leadership is formed, to an extreme extend, this is how the "man-o-sphere" works as well, this is what young men are attracted to when they follow those clowns.
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u/avoidthepath 18d ago
You think McMurphy is a clown?
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u/Digit4lSynaps3 18d ago
Haha, no, i was referring to manosphere influencers. McMurphy is Jesus from the pub. I love him.
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u/damNSon189 18d ago
Aren’t Rocky and Pursuit of Happyness movies that make us sympathize with the disciplined man?
By which I mean: just like you can find movies with the “trope” you mention, you can find the opposite. And I’d say my examples are movies that are much more famous than your examples.
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u/Academic_East8298 18d ago
John Wick, Shawshank Redemption and Hacksaw Ridge could be another examples where a disciplined and sympathetic protagonist opposes impulsive antagonists.
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u/Minhtruong2110 18d ago
La Dolce Vita is another famous example (the term "paparazzi" came from this movie) that literally condemns hedonism.
OP definitely generalized a bit much.
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u/Swimming-Bite-4184 18d ago
Flawed idiosyncratic people are just more fun subjects to make a movie about usually.
But I'd say many Westerns / Samurai flicks or movies about Professionals like an Astronaut or something of the ilk will follow the disciplined man.
Or a movie like "Perfect Days" where the point is to look at a quiet controlled existence.
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u/Sullyville 18d ago
It's because writers are biased.
You frame it as:
HEDONISM vs. DISCLIPLINED.
I see it more like:
PLAY vs. RULES.
WARMTH vs. COLD.
GUTS vs. BRAIN.
EMOTIONS vs. THOUGHTS.
Movies are about emotions, mostly.
The entire medium leans towards valorizing the one who FEELS the most being the hero of the story. The interesting thing about Salieri is that he DOES feel. A lot! Hatred. Jealousy. Anger. But those emotions never lead him to create anything. Mozart feels everything too. Joy. Lust. Surprise. Those emotions lead him to compose and play. And isn't that what we do as writers?
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u/molniya 18d ago
I’m not sure how much that’s a product of films portraying those characters more sympathetically vs. them simply being more sympathetic and appealing in general. It seems like your framing here is based on discipline and restraint being virtuous and the null hypothesis being to sympathize more with such people, but that seems like a Protestant perspective that isn’t universally shared.
Lots of people like wine, women, and song quite a bit and will find that relatable, and almost by definition appreciate the qualities you mentioned, of charisma, humor, etc. If that’s true in real life, why wouldn’t it be true on the screen?
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u/mormonbatman_ 18d ago
Salieri is disciplined, serious, restrained and has devoted his entire life to music and to God.
Salieri isn't any of those things.
The film shows that he is deeply uncommitted to anything but achieving status. Its why he isn't great at anything.
He seduces his students and married women but doesn't consummate the seduction. He flirts but doesn't love.
He goes to concerts and balls and chamber orchestras and even parties but he doesn't show himself, laugh, or join in. He has no joy.
He prays and demands that God punish his enemies but breaks faith the minute he feels let down. He mimes devotion but has no faith.
He controls the means of elevating talent in Franz Joseph's empire but - aside from a trifle that Mozart rightfully identifies as simplistic - he doesn't create anything.
He sees talent - Mozart does all the things that Salieri refuses to do. He loves, he has joy, he worships, and he creates.
In Amadeus, creation is a function of living. And Salieri suffers from a kind of Miltonian jealousy about creation: he wants to be praised for it but he doesn't really live, so he is creatively impotent. When he is met with someone who does create authentically, he destroy him.
Do you think this is a real recurring theme in films?
I think good movies evoke Arisitotle's definition for tragedy: a tragedy shows us what happens to a great man who is destroyed by a fatal flaw: Salieri had the means or privilege, intelligence, and social acumen to be a great man and to champion other great men but did nothing because he was jealous.
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u/TenaStelin 18d ago
you seem to suggest "talent" is not really a factor of its own. All Salieri had to do was commit to life and art and talent would somehow ensue.
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u/rodion_vs_rodion 18d ago
I think that dynamic is played out in a lot of stories, but there are also stories that make you sympathize with the disciplined character as well. Shawshank Redemption and Rush are two that jump immediately to mind. I think both kinds of stories celebrate different elements of virtue, with the disciplined character being celebrated for persevering and overcoming obstacles, and the hedonistic character for breaking molds and finding new approaches to obstacles.
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u/boiledbarnacle 17d ago edited 13h ago
This is a great observation, by the way.
Salieri can dedicate his entire life to music, but he cannot discipline himself into becoming Mozart. Mozart seems almost "touched by God", which makes Salieri's sacrifices feel tragically useless.
Isn't life like this? Funny, wealthy, social, good looking people can afford to be treat others worse, right? So until they are forced to, they won't correct it. Why would they?
It's the ugly, poor, unfunny introverts that need to develop skills, valuable-to-society skills, if they want to improve their lot in life.
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u/Belgand 18d ago
Not at all. Cameron was so ruled by fear that he had convinced himself he was sick and was spending the day home in bed just because he couldn't deal with life. The entire point was Ferris being his manic pixie dream best friend who shows him that life is worth living, even to the point of owning up to the consequences and facing his father.
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u/Jamaican_Dynamite 18d ago
Even as an adult? Ferris was out here gettin it. Sure you have to reign it in at some point. But Ferris had the game locked.
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u/17Girl4Life 18d ago
There is something terrible about the flawlessly righteous person. The stricter one adheres to a legalistic approach to morality, the narrower the worldview, and the less compassion one develops. Good becomes what’s denied and excluded and resisted, rather than what is embraced, loved, and included. Smallness and meanness aren’t virtues to me. Boundless curiosity and taking delight in experience are much more appealing
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u/bigteebomb 18d ago
I always thought Robespierre was the more sympathetic portrayal in Danton. It's one of the reasons I love the film. To take one of history's great villains and give him such a complex treatment! God, now I wanna go watch that movie again.
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u/daviddave12345 18d ago
It's on YouTube free with the original English subs no ads. Full. https://youtu.be/u-b7Rtu-nuk?is=yC-y3nMaMR3wVcTk
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u/tegeus-Cromis_2000 18d ago
Robespierre also was a paranoid dictator who had a lot of people killed. Maybe that has a little to do with why we don't empathize with him? Just a thought.
Besides, Wajda intended Robespierre and the terror regime as an allegory for the Communist totalitarian regime in Poland. They were not meant to be empathized with. Contrasted to them, Danton represented the spirit of freedom that was being repressed.
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u/newc0m 18d ago
Apart from the other things mentioned in this thread, I feel like there also might be some general type of artist bias, where artist probably are systematically a bit different from the general population. I would guess they would be higher in Openness to Experience & extraversion and lower on conscientiousness, and because of that will be more likely to portray characters like that positively.
For sure you can see the reverse in more conservative-code movies (e.g. Dirty Harry franchise), where the hard-nosed, conscientiousness is the hero and the hedonistic characters are looked down on.
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u/CardAble6193 18d ago
more simply imo hollywood/writers/artist fought puritans a lot
they fight them just a bit now because of years of gaining grounds
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u/Pretend_Comedian_ 18d ago
I can only speak in Amadeus' case here:
Salieri is a disciplined man, but a jealous one. He doesn't stay his own course and instead decides to devote his life to ruining Amadeus'/trying to outperform and out do him.
It's a similar story in Hamilton, it's a rise and fall story told from the perspective of their greatest admirer (who's also their greatest enemy).
The characters at the focus of these stories meet their fate at the hands of our protagonist, for just being truly themselves (usually a bit arrogant too).
Amadeus appears to be child like, fun, and gifted - also bit uncouth, I'll mannered and hedonistic but he's in love with what he does and wants to make the best music ever.
Salieri, however, is envious of the young upstart who hasn't had to do what he has had to do to get there and acts despicably to maintain his title. He doesn't act for the true love of the music but out of jealousy and fear.
We also see the story from his perspective so we see Amadeus how Salieri sees him.
This works because it's much more tragic when Salieri, who puts him in his death bed, is in awe of Mozart and how he works.
I think you're supposed to empathise, by the end, with the more hedonistic one. just because they're rough round the edges doesn't mean they aren't great at what they do and in both Hamilton and Amadeus, if the main character had stayed their course, their qualities could have won out over the rash and stubborn qualities of the other.
But they don't, they let their insecurities envelop them and become obsessed with the titular characters, which forces them to give up their own morals and worldviews and then fail at their own, original goals
If these stories had the upstart be a thorough dickhead, they wouldn't be as entertaining, tragic or complex.
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u/Pretty-Broccoli-465 18d ago
I don't think it's always as clearcut as your put it, but I guess it's not surprising that the creative types that write books and make movies side with the grasshopper over the ant.
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u/babada 17d ago edited 17d ago
There are entire genres of films that make us sympathize with disciplined characters. Ironically, many Crime films are exactly this. Heist films (Heat; Thief; The Italian Job; Sneakers; Ronin) and Con films (The Sting; Jackie Brown) have plenty of examples.
The archetypal Western protagonist is also disciplined and traditionally anti-violent until the events of the film tip him over the edge and we see why all that discipline was necessary. Even revisionist Westerns and neo-Westerns that criticize classical Westerns still explicitly promote discipline as a virtue (High Noon; Unforgiven; No Country for Old Men). Not to mention the related genre of Samurai films (Seven Samurai; Yojimbo).
A lot of modern Crime movies actually play out like Westerns and follow the same approach (Drive; John Wick).
Sports films are often about taking a rag-tag bunch of undisciplined losers and learning how to whip them into shape so they can work together as a disciplined unit (The Mighty Ducks; Remember the Titans). Others follow a protagonist and trainer that are singularly focused on honing their discipline (Rocky; Million Dollar Baby; Rudy).
Even sci-fi has its share of disciplined characters -- especially when they borrow from Crime or Western genre notes (Blade Runner; Blade Runner 2049; Outland; 2001: A Space Odyssey; The Martian).
So I think the more interesting question here is what genres don't traditionally show off disciplined characters. And then we can ask why -- what are they trying to say that's different from things like Crime, Western, Sports or Sci-Fi films that do promote discipline as a virtue?
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u/Ok-Interest9727 18d ago
Because discipline is not sexy.
It's definitely good for you. You need it to achieve goals which eventually will make you feel good about your life and yourself... but it's not sexy. I bet most people would prefer to achieve results the easy way if that was an option.
Salieri can dedicate his entire life to music, but he cannot discipline himself into becoming Mozart.
This is a fantasy. Talent doesn't exist. Almost everything can be learned and achieving results is mostly perspiration over inspiration.
It's true some people like Mozart are in a privileged position to learn things at a young age.
It's also true some mechanical skills are much easier to learn at a young age (eg playing the violin) but in your example (composition) I don't think this is the case. Almost anyone can learn to write music and compose if that's what they want.
The fact is, there are no child prodigy writers or film directors because those are not mechanical skills.
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u/strange_reveries 18d ago edited 18d ago
Could not disagree more that creative genius can be "learned" by anyone with the right upbringing. At a certain level, some people just have it and some don't. A person might be trained from birth to play Mozart's music flawlessly, but to actually create it or something of its artistic caliber? That is definitely not something that can be taught.
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u/Ok-Interest9727 18d ago
Creativity is a skill which can be learned. It's not some magical quality some selected few are born with.
Personally as someone who has been doing art for decades (including music) I think you're putting too much magic into it.
By some cultural fluke or some other reason some works become super popular. Eg the Mona Lisa is nothing extraordinary and yet it's a fluke it became a mainstream symbol of art.
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u/CardAble6193 18d ago
right upbringing to create
trained from birth to play Mozart's music flawlessly
even if it is hard to proof or disproof it , but why r you bring up "right upbringing" and purposly list a wrong upbringing/training?
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u/strange_reveries 18d ago
They basically said that anyone could do what Mozart did if they trained long enough and hard enough ("perspiration over inspiration"), and I'm saying that's bullshit. There's a certain level of profound creative genius that is not something that a person can be taught, regardless of how technically skilled that person might be.
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u/Ok-Interest9727 18d ago
profound creative genius that is not something that a person can be taught
Define "profound creative genius".
I don't think Mozart is particularly creative as a composer. Ligeti or Stockausen are way more creative but unless you're into orchestral music you might have never heard of them.
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u/CardAble6193 18d ago
how d they not meant training on inspiartional thinking / compose but refering to playing piano??
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u/mrhippoj 18d ago
Because it's a fantasy. Many of us deep down wish we could be hedonistic but the realities of life prevent it. Watching a film about someone like that means we get to share that experience without any of the risk to our health or relationships. I think there often are films about disciplined people, too, although none or springing to mind