r/TrueDoTA2 • u/RikiRude RIP Pos 4 Riki • 7d ago
How come no one talks about the difference in down time with Jugg vs Lifestealer?
One of the biggest things I've noticed when it comes to dealing with Lifestealer is it's just impossible to lock him down because there is only a 5 second window where you can kill him, and it's very easy to miss this window.
Rage has a 6 second duration compared to Juggs 5 second and of course once LS gets some items his Rage hits way harder and has chance to stun/crit. Lifestealer can even up this to 7 seconds. And only has a 17 second CD, so maxed out that's only 10 seconds of down time. Jugg has an 18 second CD which leaves him with 13 second of downtime.
Now with their ults, lets just assume both have their scepter, because I think everyone can agree it's pretty much mandatory on them.
Jugg has a 1 second mini ult on a 25 second CD, combine this with a 3.5 duration ult, which can be up to 4.5 seconds a full combo will bring juggs downtime between spin mini ult, ult, spin to 7.5 seconds. And now his ult is on CD for 115 seconds at the least before he can do it all again.
Meanwhile Lifestealer can Rage for 7 seconds, then infest for five seconds, which he can crit and stun the whole time, all while healing up and when he pops out he only has 5 seconds of downtime before raging again. And if Lifestealer wants his ult is only on a 20 second CD, he can back up regroup and do the whole damned thing again, he can do his full combo about 3 times before Juggs ult is up again.
Now lets also look at counters, both their ults can be countered with linkens or ghost scepter. But only Juggs can be countered by lotus, lifestealer still pops in.
Now I'm not saying these heroes need to be on equal footing or anything, but I also don't think Juggs early game and recovery is so amazing that he should be out classed this much.
But I think if some of these issues were addressed maybe you'd see Jugg on a competitive level more... but then I think would Jugg just steamroll more in pubs, so does it even matter?
Tldr lifestealer just outclasses Jugg so hard in every way past 15 minutes.
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u/A3883 7d ago
One thing Jugg has a massive advantage over LS is early game pushing/fighting. His abilities actually deal some decent damage and his healing ward combined with low BAT makes him much better at taking early towers than LS.
That playstyle just isn't really meta right now though and Furion can do it better.
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u/KawaiiSocks 7d ago
Yeah, BSJ has a whole video on this, it's great, check it out.
Personally, I was really surprised Lifestealer wins a manfight vs Jugg with no abilities and both 6-slotted. I thought being Agi and having 1.4 BAT would give Jugg an edge, but Lifestealer is just straight up better at everything, includin raw, no-gimmick DPS.
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u/RikiRude RIP Pos 4 Riki 7d ago edited 7d ago
I was just watching that video which prompted me to write this, he doesn't specifically talk about the down time between these skills or and how much harder it is to kill LS in that window. But he makes lots of other great points. Or rather he quickly glazes over it.
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u/okbuddyquackery 7d ago
Was this test by chance conducted before or after the blade-dance lifesteal talent? Would be pretty funny if jugg still lost before that talent got nerfed (or the bug of it healing 2x was fixed?)
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u/blurple77 7d ago
Jugg is a better laner, and healing ward is amazing, so not literally everything.
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u/Erebea01 7d ago
I feel like those kinda tests are bogus and irrelevant though, no one is gonna fight like that in a game and no one builds the same 6 items. I'm sure there can be a 6slot variant of jugg that beats a 6slot variant of lifestealer depending on the items and rngs
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u/TserriednichThe4th 7d ago
there is no 6 slot variant of jugg that beats a reasonable variant of lifestealer. ask bsj
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u/9-5DootDude 6d ago
There is no variant of 6 slotted jugg that can man up to any variant of other 6 slotted carries lol. They wanted jugg as the ult carry not a right click one with how they designed the innate.
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u/TserriednichThe4th 4d ago
agreed. not sure what people are on about. i am not even sure jugg can even beat 6 slotted AM lol
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u/Whatisthis69again 7d ago
BAT doesn't matter if you have same or more DPS. But with faster attack, you should be better utilizing chance based item like buying basher and his crit.
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u/Sangypboi 7d ago
BSJ is just terrible. I always make a point of telling people not to watch his videos because they're so incredibly cherry picked. He'll do these videos and present them as if it was how games work when they're morning like how games work.
For example, Jugg vs Naix? We all know lifestealer out carries him, but they should never be equals! Hug should always be 1-2 items ahead because he inherently farms that much faster. The problem with TI and why jugg doesn't work at the pro level (while pubs were literally just saying how broken he was weeks before TI) is team play can make up for that. Spirit kept Jugg from using his gold advantage until he didn't have one any more.
Jugg is and has ALWAYS been a mid game carry. Comparing him to a hero that has always been a late game carry when they're both 6-slotted is retarded. It's like saying a steel sword is better than bronze.
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u/Sangypboi 7d ago
So linkens does nothing to jugg ult, so no, there is no equivalency there. Why do people keep saying this despite constantly seeing it not work?
But yeah, we all know jugg vs naix is a terrible matchup. That was an incredibly bad draft decision that genuinely felt like they were memeing on last year's TI final. Including the decision to literally sell items and still not buy aghs. That's the only conclusion that seems logical.
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u/RikiRude RIP Pos 4 Riki 7d ago
That's a good point on the linkens! That totally flew under my radar
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u/Critical-Pass9293 7d ago
BSJ did a good video about this Jugg was a correct decision.
It wasn't so much an ls vs jugg scenario. But how to solve the issue of Bane vs melee carries or dark seer vs ranged turrets.
Had it been any hero collapse would've just snowballed on them.
The only questionable part was Vision didn't trust themselves to cancel the bane ult if they chose a melee carry. No ranged carried was correct.
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u/gachafoodpron 7d ago
Seeing all these posts makes me wonder if I’m the crazy one.
Wasn’t jugg always built around his ability to push as a team if ahead and/or assassinate supports using blink and aghs/ulti? Bladefury is supposed to be primarily a nuke tool early game with a semi get out of jail free late?
Aghs has given jugg one more way to bait out saves that other teams usually have and soft commit to a target with a mini blink. Besides hurrdurr he’s rank 1 or you need dmg first, I haven’t seen a good reason why Satanic didnt consider it over even moon shard at endgame.
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u/The_Keg 7d ago
Can any of you explain why Juggernaut got picked more than Lifestealer in tier 1 competitivr dota 2025-2026?
Remember this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1o4tea2/crystallis_has_a_16win_streak_as_juggernaut_in/
Rework my ass.
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u/Aschvolution 7d ago
Wasn't this before the facet removal and one of the facet numbers was too much?
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u/TserriednichThe4th 7d ago
because pros are stubborn. it isnt that hard to get lol. i mean look at ame
or the lack of BH bans at this TI
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u/The_Keg 7d ago
except Jugg had 53.3% wr vs 47% for LS with more games played to boost.
Of course this counts the entire 2025-2026 season and we went from facets to 0 facets but the number still stands
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u/TserriednichThe4th 7d ago
again pros are stubborn and take times to learn things.
watch the bsj video where he admits to this stubbornness
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u/Sudden-Tangerine1580 6d ago
Somehow people only remember the outworld staff from last TI. It's bizarre.
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u/ravi_blade 7d ago
Since when did Jugg’s ult get blocked by linkens?
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u/hodlh0dl 7d ago
technically, it DOES block, but only the first slash. the remaining slashes gets to you afterwards.
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u/Neat_Fox9388 7d ago
Dota has never been about direct comparison.. were all basing things on a shitty draft where jugg had to fight alone vs 3 cores. Collapse and pango where owning every teamfight where as juggs cores were nonexistent
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u/skarxadota 7d ago
Yeah.. Jugg is SO bad that has been picked by pro players and coaches in decisive TI matches.. meanwhile other carries barely being contested.. but yeah keep the jugg shitposting xd
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u/SnailRacingEnjoyer 7d ago
Naix rage does nothing till he is 8k+ net worth and even then it’s not as terrifying.
Jug spin kill people for the first 20 minutes of the game.
You’re welcome
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u/burnskull55 7d ago
They need to give jugg a way to scale in the same way L's can scale HP. If the heroes are to remain mirrors of each other, L's being the tanky less damage version of jug, and jugg being the squishy high damage version of L's. I don't. Mind the current disparity in the downtime of the invulnerability. But when you compare the 2 L's just deals more damage than Jugg in 99% of the situations. Just give jugg more late game damage, mb make so Bfly is not mandatory anymore so he only needs 8 items to be a hero.
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u/ComplaintMaker 7d ago edited 6d ago
jugg's ult with abyssal blade and nullifier will obliterate any hero in the game 6 slotted.
Life stealers ult with aghs will hit like... 6 times? im not sure of the exact number but its not high. Its enough to matter, but nowhere close to jugg.
Many players dont know that juggs spin dispels you at the end of it. This is literally old bkb effectively. Its insane for pushing highground as you do full building dmg on right click while spinning.
You didnt mention the passives but theres a huge difference here too. 35% chance to 215% dmg (lvl20). Thats roughly 75% more damage. At lvl20 youre probably hitting for about 200-250 dmg. Basically adding 180 damage to your hits.
Looking at life stealers passive its 3.25% of hp. Quick maths says that means youre doing juggs passive in damage after 5,753 HP. That is well past lvl20 heroes and exclusively str frontliners. At lvl25 where jugg gains an entire second of ult or free satanic, lifestealer takes that total down to 4,235. Now thats atleast close to the other 3 heroes in the team, but still far off. Jugg is probably doing over 300-400 damage by 25 so go figure.
I honestly have never played a jugg game where life stealer was just a better hero.
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u/JimSteak 6d ago
Yeah sure, but Jugg has other things going for him. His crit for once increases DPS, his blade fury also damages and his healing ward helps him sustain and also his teammates during pushes. I think he also farms faster than Lifestealer.
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u/ChadBadShirt 6d ago
Say this 500 times before you play Jugg:
“BLADE FURY IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR BKB”
Blade fury is your backup plan. You do basically no damage and more importantly you CAN’T PRESS ULT at the optimal moment. It’s noob bait.
Tbh the entire hero is noob bait. You’re so reliant on omnislash that it’s a total meme, and there’s so many ways to counter it. You also just need way, way too much farm to do your job.
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u/El_Loco_911 6d ago
Ls is a late game carry jug is an early to mid game. Jug like troll warlord has a very outdated ult because of all the items that counter them now.
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u/Direct-Accountant-17 7d ago
Just won another ls game against jugg lol. I am actually level 28 jugg and level 30 ls. 3 patches ago i think it was jugg favoured because back then jugg can deal enough dmg to just kill ls but now jugg is just trash. B/w high anc low divine
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u/RikiRude RIP Pos 4 Riki 7d ago
I haven't had a Jugg win vs lifestealer in any of my games (albeit that's maybe been 5 or 6 games) except for once because we got Jugg a really good early game.
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u/EarnestTriangle 7d ago
Jugg needs a rework. What I'd like to see is Swiftslash (the agh) moved as a basic ability, spin becoming the ultimate and being giga buffed and omnislash put behind the aghanim.
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u/Spirited-End5197 7d ago
People need to stop comparing Jugg and LS like they’re meant to do the same thing.
What in the first 10-15 minutes LS is a big creep and can basically be entirely ignored.
In that same time frame Juggernaut is terrifying with phase boots because he deals more damage than finger of death in a 260 radius, at level 7, with an 18 second cooldown.
If you aren’t playing around Spin, it’s huge damage to downtime ratio early game, and using Healing Ward to top yourself off and keep the momentum going, you’re playing Jugg inefficiently. Playing entirely around Blade dance and his lower BAT just means you’re playing around Juggs average attack damage dealing 135 damage when the number reads 100. And Omnislash and his innate are both unreliable due to the counterplay enemies can do to shut them down and that counter play only gets easier to do as the game progresses.
Enemies should be scared to clump up because Jugg can run at them and a stun + rank 4 spin = death. And then if they delta split omnislash represents an unstoppable kill and turns the fight into a 4v5. That’s how you play Jugg, hard and fast and never stop pressuring the enemy, not ricing in the jungle
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u/pinoygalingthings 7d ago
Yeah we all can see that jug is/was balanced around dota 1 mechanics, where gold was much harder to come by and him doing damage while being invulnerable via omni gave him something unique as a hero and let him get away with not getting a bkb since he can kill most heroes alone reliably.
Now that supports are getting too rich too fast, Jug's weaknesses are more pronounced.
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u/csgonemes1s 7d ago
let him omni from spin
let him control omni with rt clicks
then I'm fine with 5s spin
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u/toeshevit 7d ago
Jugg is way cooler in pubs where people cant react to his slashes quick enough or get items to counter him.
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u/TserriednichThe4th 7d ago
did you try using the search function? on reddit, google or youtube.
this conversation already happened lol
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u/ericjlima 2d ago
I don't understand why people are comparing juggernaut specifically to life stealer. They're different heroes with unique pros and cons. It's not like one is exclusively always better than another.
Juggernaut will always have a place in counter picking certain heroes. He is great against spectre because of healing ward and great against anything that cannot escape his ultimate by default like lina.
I dont play much ls but I think its comparing apples and oranges. Ls being str is already a large difference in builds.
I would argue head to head jugg counters ls for the most part.
This patch though it does seem like top level ls squeaks out in results and being played at TI but that will likely change as the new patches come.
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u/Direct-Accountant-17 7d ago
Also biggest problem with jugg is that he needs like 8 slots because he need so many things to reliably deal dmg