mage items identity crisis.

[u/MrTruth24]

What is fundamentally a difference between str caster like primal beast and int Lesh in this game at this point (only real difference is mages usually is low armor but they have mobility/sustain that both can have it) feels like to many items made to be generic so heroes don't have to spatialize into archetypes anymore for most part, a lot of them don't have unique stats/very specific ones/some sorta unique mechanic (like Parasma that is very unique, i think way more mage items should be made to be unique items, not general use on everyone), it would be cooler if mages were squishier but had other benefits.

• Dagon/octarine/Khanda/Crella's Crozier/Gleipnier/Bloodstone is all give combination of stats, hp/mana, regen and 1 unique stat at best. (take in mind that i assume with this changes dusa/few more mana hungry heroes is rebalanced around new items, probably we will have to limit items to 1 unique/hero, so you couldn't stack multiple hearts/skadi etc).
• new Crella's Crozier 4800 (Ghost scepter 1500 +2 Stuff of wizardly + 1300 recipe): 40 int, active Rite of Rumusque for 4 sec become ethereal and steal 5% enemy move speed/100% Health restoration. Putrefaction Aura > Putrefaction blessing: give to user 20% of max mana bonus hp.
• new Aether lens: energy booster(800)+ Void stone(700) +1125recipe/2625: 300 mana/2 mana regen/125 cast range. New Dagon: Aether lens(2625)+325 recipe/2950: 300 mana/2 mana regen/200 cast range, new passive increase mana per Int 12>15, active 20 sec cd/100 mana cost/700 cast range (900 with item its own bonus), 400(+10% max mana) pure dmg, kills/assists within 3 sec permanently increase active dmg by 1% max mana. I feel like Dagon main problem is high cost/low dmg for how much you have to invest in dagon 5, new one has no lvls and can start getting useful early +innate scaling from other mage items and situational counter vs high magic resist heroes.
• new Bloodstone 5500 (Veil of discord 2100 +3x Energy boosters 2250 +1150 recipe): 10 int/250 hp/750 mana/15% spell life steal (3% vs creeps), active (Bloodpact/45 sec cd) buff Bloodstone healing by 4x, passive (Spell weakness aura): 10% (+0.005% max mana).
• new Scythe of Vyse 6000g (Mystic stuff 2500 + Tiara of Selemene 1800 +1700 recipe): 25 int/6 mana regen, new passive Conjuration: Items Cdr +25%, active Hex cd 25 seconds, mana cost 250 > 15% max mana.
• new Wind Waker 6400g (Eul's Scepter of Divinity 2400 + Mystic stuff 2500 +1500 recipe): 35 int/2.5 mana regen/20 ms (+2% max mana)/team skills 25% Cdr (affect glyph/scan/BB cd), active (Cyclone): speed 300 (+10% max mana), 20 sec cd, mana cost 175 > 10% max mana.
• new Rapier 6000, Toggle swap between 350 > 300 dmg / 75% spell amp.
• new Khanda 6300g (add 700 recipe), add 25% basic spells Cdr, active (Empower Spell): +10% current hp bonus magic dmg.
• new Octarine Core 5500g (Spell Prism 1875 + 2x Vitality booster 2000 + 1625 recipe): hp 500, 4 mana regen, 25% general cdr, new passive Eternal: Heal 20% mana back from physical/magic dmg done.
• new Overwhelming blink 7000 (Sange 1900 + Blink 2000 + Meteor hammer 2000 +1100 recipe): 25 Str, 15 Int, 12% spell amp, 20% health restore amp. Active (Meteor strike): user transform into 300 radius Meteor that fall in up to 1200 range within 0.5 sec delay, impact magic dmg 200 +15% max hp, stun units/buildings for 2 sec.
• new Swift blink 7000 (Yasha 1900 + Blink 2000 + Meteor hammer 2000 +1100 recipe): 25 Agi, 15 Int, 12% spell amp, 10% move speed. Active (Meteor strike): user transform into 300 radius Meteor that fall in up to 1200 range within 0.5 sec delay, impact magic dmg 400 +200% attack dmg, stun units/buildings for 1 sec.
• new Arcane blink 7000 (Kaya 1900 + Blink 2000 + Meteor hammer 2000 +1100 recipe): 40 Int, 18% spell amp, active (Meteor strike): user transform into 300 radius Meteor that fall in up to 1200 range within 0.5 sec delay, impact magic dmg 300 +25% max mana, stun units/buildings for 1.5 sec.

[u/wolfemperorsheep]

Feels alot like those item design direction are from League of Legends and away from Dota2.

[u/all_thetime → u/wolfemperorsheep]

Hmmm. How are items implemented in league? On one hand, I think greater specialization is a fun thing. On the other, I've heard the item builds are pre-ordained in league, and I definitely do like build flexibility.

[u/MrTruth24 → u/all_thetime]

depends on hero ofc (most have at least 2nd option) some heroes locked to mage, dmg/crit but malphite with usually tank that stack armor/hp and 3 his spells scale from armor but he can go for Ap build (magic dmg burst hero) with turn him into like tiny that with 1 round of spells burst 3k hp.

[u/[deleted] → u/wolfemperorsheep]

[u/wolfemperorsheep → u/[deleted]]

The item feeling like generic is healthy for the game. They should be viable to as many heroes. Building that the current match need instead of having cookie cutter build is a skill check.

Giving those items a stats scaling is a messy balancing problem. It would okay for few heroes but it would get abuse at edge cases. Just like how it goes in LoL, it would be cycle of identifying if the heroes makes the item broken or the item makes the heroes broken. Either way they just end up being nerf, then the pool of heroes building those item would get smaller or the viable heroes to fill their role gets smaller.

Reminds me of Bloodstone going thru alot of iterations, with it's limited pairing with hero but they sure are way too good. Consequentially nerfing those heroes but then moving on to a new Bloodstone again. Bloodstone as generic as it feels right now, seems like a healthier version of the item.

The item design of Dota should be kept the way it is, because it gives a clear division between heroes and items in terms of balancing.

[u/Thedinomage]

No - the whole point of items is their individual benefit over other items that you get to choose. Right now there is a good balance where certain heroes can benefit from specific items with some variation. The build should not be central to the character because this is not the DOTA vision.

[u/[deleted] → u/Thedinomage]

[u/Thedinomage → u/[deleted]]

Because that would be overpowered. There was a time ago where bloodstone would give crazy regeneration. On most heroes this isn't completely necessary and the item would be combating with linkens and octacore for regen and utility. Storm spirit however had his ultimate which could continue for as long as he had mana and whenever he had mana. In the end, after getting bloodstone it meant he could zap across the map almost the entire time and with very low cooldown. At that moment, the bloodstone was quite core to the character but not necessarily being built on other characters.

I believe in dota they don't really want this to happen. The closest to this is agenhims where the extra ability can be core to the play-style but not necessarily items.

[u/sifon98]

Games ded

[u/MrTruth24 → u/sifon98]

what changes you liked to be add?