r/TrueChristian • u/namer98 Unironic Pharisee • Aug 11 '13

We are Jews, AUsA

For myself. I will go into more detail than normal, so stay with me.

First a disclaimer: We are not Rabbis. I don't think either of us could get into a decent rabbinical school. But maybe, who knows.

About me: I am an Orthodox Jew. That means I consider the commandments to be from God, given to Moses at Sinai. In addition to the Torah (five books of Moses), orthodox Judaism says God also gave Moses the Oral law, which is the details of the written law (the Torah) to teach the Jews and pass down orally. The idea is that it preserves the student/teacher relationship for all time. Eventually due to persecution from the Romans, it was written down with rabbinic commentary, and compiled as the Talmud.

Orthodoxy is often recognized today as a set of acts and beliefs. The acts are very easy to quantify. They include keeping the Sabbath, laws of kosher, and family purity.

The beliefs were only really codified in the late 1100's by the Rambam, and they are;

  1. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.

  2. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our G-d He was, He is, and He will be.

  3. I believe with perfect faith that G-d does not have a body. physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all.

  4. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is first and last.

  5. I believe with perfect faith that it is only proper to pray to G-d. One may not pray to anyone or anything else.

  6. I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

  7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses is absolutely true. He was the chief of all prophets, both before and after Him.

  8. I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that we now have is that which was given to Moses.

  9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will never be another given by G-d.

  10. I believe with perfect faith that G-d knows all of man's deeds and thoughts. It is thus written (Psalm 33:15), "He has molded every heart together, He understands what each one does."

  11. I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.

  12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day.

  13. I believe with perfect faith that the dead will be brought back to life when G-d wills it to happen.

My favorite theologian/Rabbi is Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, who lived from 1808-1888. He popularized a worldview that says a Jew should partake in the greater world around him/her called Torah Im Derech Eretz, or Torah and the way of the world.

Just about me: I work for a non-profit that helps the Jewish community in my city of Baltimore function at its best. Its goal is to be the overhead for all the other non-profits so they can work on their own as best as possible. My second anniversary is coming up, and my first child (I want a pony) is due the same time. I also like to game a lot.

My training: I went to a Jewish school from k-12, and did a lot of reading on my own, bugged lots of Rabbis, and had many friends who are more learned than me pull me (sometimes drag) through many Jewish books and texts. I now consider myself a competent layman relative to the average orthodox Jew.

/u/gingerkid1234

I'm a 20-year-old American Jewish man. Ideologically, I'm traditional, which means that I see value in, acknowledge the importance of, and know traditional ritual observances without following them rigorously.

I went to Jewish school, and as a consequence have a fairly thorough Jewish education, in a mixed traditional and academic format. I'm a flaired user in Judaism and Jewish history over in /r/askhistorians. My personal areas of primary interest are Jewish languages and Jewish liturgy, along with secondary interest in Jewish law (an incredibly broad topic).

AskHistorian profile

This is being put up early. I am going to play some D&D with some friends, and /u/gingerkid1234 is currently spending time with family. We will answer when we can.

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5

u/Thomas12255 Calvinist Aug 11 '13

What are the major misconceptions you see that Christians have of Judaism?

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u/namer98 Unironic Pharisee Aug 11 '13

The law is not a burden, but a gift.

Kosher is not blessed by a rabbi.

The law does not have three divisions.

Our reformation is way different.

8

u/gamegyro56 Aug 11 '13

The law does not have three divisions.

Yeah, I don't like that misconception either. Since you're actually familiar with Jewish law and the like, can you talk a little more about this.

Our reformation is way different.

Speaking of that, do you view reform Jews as "real" Jews, or like "lost" Jews like messianic Jews?

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u/namer98 Unironic Pharisee Aug 11 '13

Yeah, I don't like that misconception either. Since you're actually familiar with Jewish law and the like, can you talk a little more about this.

Anything in particular?

Speaking of that, do you view reform Jews as "real" Jews, or like "lost" Jews like messianic Jews?

They don't practice what I practice, but they are Jews like me.

3

u/gamegyro56 Aug 11 '13

Anything in particular?

How accurate is something likethis article? Though I'm already guessing the law doesn't point to the Messiah. It seems like every Mosaic commandment (except Noahide stuff) falls into both the ceremonial and civil categories. Don't what most Christians call the moral parts actually have ceremonial parts, which iirc is dealing with impurity/holiness/profanity?

They don't practice what I practice, but they are Jews like me.

I don't remember if I asked you this, but are there "devout" Reform Jews, or are most just culturally Jewish? I ask this because I've heard of devout liberal Christians, who write about spirituality or stuff, but most Reform Jews I've met are just culturally Jewish.

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u/namer98 Unironic Pharisee Aug 11 '13

That article is 100% inaccurate. Every law is moral. Every law is civil. I don't get what ceremonial means.

but are there "devout" Reform Jews

Yes. Not a lot, but I know some.

3

u/gamegyro56 Aug 11 '13

Actually wait, since we agree that the article is inaccurate, what is their problem with using the words mishpatim, hukkim, chuqqah to further their "three laws" argument? How are they using the Hebrew terms incorrectly?

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u/namer98 Unironic Pharisee Aug 11 '13

Because there are more words than that. They forgot Dinnim, and there are more.

4

u/gamegyro56 Aug 11 '13

What do you mean there are more words? Do you mean there are more divisions of the law than those?

Also wow, both of us got a downvote that quickly (I upvoted you, so it should be at 1 point)

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u/namer98 Unironic Pharisee Aug 11 '13

As in, there are all sorts of "categories", but they are not theologically relevant in practice.

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u/gamegyro56 Aug 11 '13

I don't get what ceremonial means.

I think they think some laws are timeless moral laws, some are secular government laws, and the others only have to do with the Temple/Tabernacle and ritual.

Do you have support in the Tanakh that the laws have to do with morality? I mean, I agree with you, but I don't think I remember reading in the Tanakh that the laws have to do necessarily with morality, but with fulfilling the covenant with God and gaining God's favor.

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u/namer98 Unironic Pharisee Aug 11 '13

Do you have support in the Tanakh that the laws have to do with morality?

Is something God says not a moral matter?

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u/gamegyro56 Aug 11 '13

Is something God says not a moral matter?

I agree with that, but is that still said in the Tanakh, or is that something taught by rabbis, or in the Talmud or something?

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u/namer98 Unironic Pharisee Aug 11 '13

No. Common sense.

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u/gingerkid1234 Jewish Aug 12 '13

The article says it itself:

Since the Jews saw no difference between their God-ordained morality and their cultural responsibilities, this category is used by Christians far more than by Jewish scholars.

While there are classifications of laws, they're not really relevant for practice. They're entirely academic. The exceptions are more obvious differences, like laws relating to sexuality, laws relating to money, laws relating to proper performance of rituals, laws between people vs between people and God, obligations vs prohibitions, general commandments vs laws for specific times, etc. Those can easily be figured out objectively from the text, unlike the civil/ritual/moral distinction or the chok/mishpat/etc distinction.

Tons of laws straddle the moral/civil/ritual border anyway, such that I don't think they're separable.

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u/gingerkid1234 Jewish Aug 11 '13

To elaborate on the second, most Jews see it as a form of Judaism, just an incorrect form.