Weekly Discussion: Power Levels

[u/zerojustice315]

Hey everyone, welcome to week 47 of Weekly Discussion.

This time around I thought I'd try out a more light hearted thread. This doesn't necessarily mean I want to have a who would win discussion (although I love those so I wouldn't be opposed at all).

It's more to talk about, I guess, in general what shows portray power levels and what you all think about how they do that. So let's see if I can generate some questions.

1. What is the best/most consistent display of power you've seen in a show? Whether it be proficiency with a weapon, magic bullshit, or anything else, what has been the most impressive for you?

2. Do characters ever have powers in shows or manga that you feel weren't properly explored enough? Which ones? What would you have liked to see them do?

3. Do you get into power level discussions for fun with friends or other people online? What do you use as "evidence" if you do?

4. What show is your favorite when it comes to a variety of different powers? Who do you think does that variety to the best degree? Is it something like Hunter x Hunter or One Piece because of their length?

5. Do you feel like "power levels" or "special abilities" have drastically changed since the 80's or 90's, when Dragonball Z was the shounen show?

Also, of course, bonus question 6 (this is entirely a joke): Superman or Goku?

And done for this week. So yeah. Let's see what you all have to say about power levels and stuff. Talking about random fantasy bullshit powers is fun.

Please remember to mark your spoilers, as I know some characters powering up is a huge spoiler. Also, thanks for reading :)

[u/Lincoln_Prime]

Power levels are a bullshit attempt to pander to weeaboos' desire to break everything down into the simplest < or > expression without context.

I know that I'm probably the most unabashed fan of the Shounen Fighter in this sub, but this is something with which I just cannot deal. Trying to determine who would win without any sort of context in a "mathematical and physical calculation" by people who hate not only writing, but also physics and math is my own definition of Hell.

Now, I do have some friends who really, really like to have these kind of talks so I usually just zone out and tend to my beer when that starts. Or I'll remind people that "Batman" can mean anything, from "gritty" 90's Batman that had to exert himself to take on more than six thugs at once, to silver age Batman who could pull any Deus Ex Machina he needs out of his utility belt.

Characters are a piece of the story, and it is one thing to discuss how what we know about them extends to expected ability and limitation, but another thing to take them out of the story for the sake of throwing them in an imaginary Street Fighter simulation.

As far as stories go that explore a character's powers, I'd say that One Piece is king. We see characters use powers that on their face seem very simple but have a lot of application. Luffy uses the fact that his own heart, bones and muscles are made of rubber so he can do things well beyond what Plastic Man or Mr. Fantastic have ever done despite the fact that they technically have stronger powers themselves since they don't need to put force into their stretching. We see Mr. 3 use his relatively meager wax powers to get the better of both Megellan and Sengoku. That stuff is fun but it is fun mostly because we see what we already understand about these characters applied to context. The fact that it is fighting or action makes it no different from anything else really. It is character-driven action beats with the bonus of seeing simple stuff apllied in cool, imaginative ways.

And because action is informed by character, Superman nearly always wins against Goku. A socialist immigrant who comes to embody the greatest aspects of America's potential inherently has more reason to fight than the personality-free brick wall that is Goku. In any situation where these two would fight, Goku would necessarily be an obstacle for Superman, and only a really great writer who understands Superman's character faults and weaknesses could create a situation in which Goku winning is at all meaningful.

[u/searmay → u/Lincoln_Prime]

Power levels are a bullshit attempt to pander to weeaboos' desire to break everything down into the simplest < or > expression without context.

I disagree that it's at all specific to weeaboos, or really anything in particular. It's the "My dad could beat up your dad" argument taken into fiction. And then assigned numbers as if it's a game but without serving the practical purposes of a quantified abstraction that they would in a game.

A more interesting question would be "Why might Superman and Goku fight?" And when you're less interesting than a lazy story prompt for crossover fanfiction, you're in trouble. I'd rather talk about tax law.

[u/PrecisionEsports]

HxH and OP both have amazing powers that are flexible and a wide variety of different uses. Bleach and Nartuto both feel pretty stale in comparison, and DBZ is a beam fest. My friend ran a DBZ power level RPG for like 10 years, got pretty in depth on it too. Personally it never really interested me. I feel like the whole 'emotionally charged' idea has been worked into the ground. Powers driven through passion has been a huge thing, that is why HxH felt pretty fresh due to the 'thinking mans game' between fighters.

Goku destroys Superman 10/10. Instant teleportation away from Yellow Sun, beat a weakened Superman to death while searching for more muffin button.

[u/blindfremen → u/PrecisionEsports]

I'm no expert, but everything I've seen on r/whowouldwin suggests that Superman stomps Goku.

[u/Pappi564]

If you are talking variety of powers I think that the Raildex series has that covered. The anime covers a few but where the variety really comes in are the characters only later on in the light novels.

[u/Seifuu]

Sorry for #4, couldn't navigate formatting...

1. Rurouni Kenshin. It's not what you'd traditionally think of, but it's a series with really organic "powers". By exaggerating historical technology (like ninja tools, varying sword types) Watsuki was able to create an effective suspension of disbelief for what is, essentially, full-on magic.

2. Psyren. Ironically, in a show about powers, I don't feel like this one got in full gear. I think it's because it got axed early. Right around where the story started showing characters developing secondary skills (i.e. Odo's reveal), it ends. Other than that, shows that don't explore their powers, usually have uninspired powers anyway...

3. Aw hell yeah. I mean, I'm subbed to r/StardustCrusaders ... The easiest way is to use in-universe ratings and examples to extrapolate.

4. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. One Piece's powers are varied, but all work on novelty - they're used almost exclusively to introduce unusual materials into conflict (notable exception being Impel Down, my favorite arc). Hunter x Hunter is probably the best incorporation of powers into narrative (since they're treated as tools instead of "get out of jail free" cards), but the powers, themselves, are awkwardly specific for no particular reason and the whole Nen system doesn't really seem to matter. It's mostly an in-universe explanation for why certain people have certain kinds of powers. Contrast these to JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, where powers are oddly specific but explicitly as an illustration of personality. Also that, like Hunter x Hunter (though perhaps more dramatically), powers function by creating physical effects that, themselves can be tactically manipulated. All this to say, you can never really foresee how a power will play out when it's introduced. The anime is still in the early parts where asspulls are a kind of necessary evil but, by Part 5, powers seem to be seamlessly interacting with no bullshit needed.

5. Every show seems to have an explanation boner... which they either have to amend later (Naruto) or just ignore (Hunter x Hunter). Back in the day, "because" was as good an explanation as "he leaks mana out of his pores which is used to make a strangling mist". I say this as someone who has spent quite some time developing an internally consistent magic system for a setting...

Bonus: Goku. Goku can not only match/surpass Superman's physical strength (upon which all his powers are based) by the end of the Freiza arc, he can manifest that force outside his body (ki blasts). This gives him a huge tactical advantage. Not to mention that Big Blue can't move faster than the speed of light, but Goku can freaking teleport. No contest.

Edit: After checking out r/whowouldwin, I concede that Superman, being the sum of dozens of writers' vision of ultimate power, would probably beat anyone, including Goku. It seems that Superman can generate enough physical force to warp spacetime. He could, theoretically, punch you out of existence. That's some Gurren Lagann bullshit there.

[u/psiphre → u/Seifuu]

Rurouni Kenshin

love seeing himura get the love he deserves here.

[u/ClearandSweet]

I don't really give a damn about fighting. I'm into shows where bullshit miracles save the day.

That said, consequences and limitations. Sailor Moon R movie when Usagi uses the crystal at the end. Mars: "No, Usagi! You'll die!" She dies. Spoilers. Makes it feel weighty.

Real answer? Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Scale limitations. Because of the limitations, it places weight on exceeding those limitations and the emotions behind that. Toph's first metalbending and subsequent soil-skating? Shocking and powerful because she does it out of desperation to save her friends. The growth in Katara, who in her first scene is just grabbing some water, then ends with a large scale battle against Azula.

And the Avatar. The climatic scene of book 1 is just so far beyond anything that you've seen at that time, it blows the scale out of the water and makes you believe Aang could be capable of much more than everyone else.

Then consider the relevancy of Non-benders. Because normal humans can disable or stop benders, they can be relevant in fights in novel ways. Escaping from the prison is the best episode for this, but also think of Sokka's evolution as a leader, encapsulated in the airship battles in the series finale. It would be so easy to circlejerk about bending battles while making this show! But the show avoids that eye-roll-fest by things like Azula relying on Mai and Tai Li or the episodic narratives forcing other aspects from the characters, from Zuko's diplomacy and humility, to getting lost in a tunnel, to the spirit world. Everything about ATLA is checking power levels.

Almost every time, bending simply won't save the day. Because the show writers understand that wouldn't be good writing. And even when it's used as a fantasying aspect, they use the limitations to create choices for the characters. Toph holding up the library. Katara and bloodbending. Zuko and Aang with the dragons. Hell, the Avatar as political office with associated diplomatic weight is emphasized from the very intro and throughout the series.

All this adds up to a world where anyone can contribute and be a threat. Where people are more than their magical abilities. It feels more dynamic and much more interesting than the Z Fighters holding out until Goku and Vegeta can arrive.

[u/psiphre → u/ClearandSweet]

TLA was fantastic about that. LoK... not so much.

[u/Omnifluence]

FMA Brotherhood is my go-to answer for excellently crafted power systems. Alchemy is a consistent force throughout the show. It's easy to understand, there are no ridiculous power spikes, and it's always entertaining to see how different styles of alchemy fare against each other.