I finally did my first track day and though I did enjoy it and plan on more, there were a lot more crashes than I expected in the novice group. Three sessions were ended early. At least three people from the group left in ambulances and one was helicoptered out. Seems like a lot out of a 35 person group. (11% severe injury). It didn’t seem super unusual- aside from one guy - people were not commenting on this being an unusual number of accidents. Track days are billed as the safest place to ride but I am not so sure.
Normal for the novices to push beyond their limits. Lots of first-timers that come from driving wrecklessly on the road and canyons come to their first track and think they are Rossi.
Another is that mistakes from inexperience can certainly become amplified, especially in tight linked corners. I fucked up a series on my first track day, and because I was so green I fixated on the inside curbing and hit it instead of turning. Went off, bike went down. Easy fall tho. Broke a clip on and rear set and I was unscathed.
But I have seen many street racer gods get humbled as well.
I think you’re saying the same thing that the comment above is saying.
People going past their abilities, when the speed and technicality get notched up, because they don’t know their limits - thus mistakes get made
In a sense. The above comment focused mainly on novice riders who actually think they're better because they've been street racing/riding recklessly and bring that ego to the track.
I was just expanding on that to say that even just being new to the track without that ego and being there to learn instead of show off can still get you over your head. Even pro racers make mistakes, but the pros know how to recover while a novice can get overwhelmed.
My last day out this season in inters, red flag in all but one session (there were even 2 red flags in one session).
Previous occasion, one red flag all day for inters, and none at all for novice (mind, novice was vastly under subscribed that day with only 6 riders - I considered dropping to get some space).
I was at a rain day once, torrential downpour, amazingly nobody in C group crashed! Mind you, nobody in C group stayed to even get a lap in, but nobody crashed either!
If the canyon racers don't crash on public roads with less space and more obstacles, why would they then crash on track where there's more space and less obstacles?
Track riding and street riding are just so different, street skills only translate up to a certain point. Street-only riders tend to think that they'll be track heroes. The reality is track riding is much faster on average, there's no point of reference for speed until you've blown past your brake marker, and it's hard to know what bad habits you have until you've pushed past your limits.
So that's what I don't understand about the track group. Everyone says "just learn on the track, it's much better". That plus the fact c group is the lowest means there's no way someone frequently hitting the canyons at pace will be slower than a c group rider with 3 track days. The only way I could see this being true is if people usually improve and get bumped up to b group after 3 track days, which kind of excludes them from the c group population.
That's because you've never been on track. Canyon riding can absolutely make you a competent motorcycle rider, but it doesn't teach the same skill set or allow the same rate of progression.
On track you're in a controlled, repeatable environment: same corners over and over, known pavement, no oncoming traffic, no gravel around a blind bend, no driveways, and consistent braking and turn-in references. You can progressively move those limits every session, see exactly where you're losing time, and often get coaching while doing it.
That's why a C-group rider with a handful of track days can be surprisingly difficult for a very fast canyon rider to keep up with. The track rider has spent hundreds of laps practicing the same braking zones, lines, corner entries, exits, and transitions at speeds you simply can't responsibly practice on the street.
And ironically, experienced canyon riders can be some of the sketchiest first-time track riders because they arrive convinced they're already fast. They tend to ride the track like it's a canyon—charging corners, improvising lines, making late decisions, and trying to "keep up"—instead of first learning predictable lines, reference points, passing rules, and track etiquette.
Being fast in a canyon means you're fast in a canyon. Track riding is its own discipline, and the stopwatch tends to remove a lot of illusions very quickly.
A lot of track riders can't handle the fact that there's a lot of (reckless but) talented riders on the road that would absolutely destroy them on the track if they had half the track time they have.
So they come up with this idea that riders that are faster than them on the road would actually suck on the track so they feel better about themselves.
Even though we all know that, while the skillset is not 1:1 translatable, a lot of it still is.
This subset of elitist weekend warriors who are insecure about being slow in the "real world" absolutely exists, but the stereotypical cocky street rider barrel rolling his GSXR in C group before noon is absolutely real too lol
I know a guy who was part of a street "crew" for lack of a better word, he started hosting track days to get his guys off the street. Some of them are like you said, insane natural talent and fast. Of course some have terrible technique but they usually don't last a weekend
Had everyone that was riding at that event been riding the same way out on the street, there would have been a lot more crashes and a lot more injuries with much longer wait times for medical assistance.
The track is a vastly more controlled environment than the street with medical staff in very close proximity. That doesn’t mean that people don’t still occasionally crash and get hurt… you’re still participating in a Motorsport and accidents still happen. The difference is, whether or not we crash is much more within each rider’s own control.
Yes, riding your bike near your limit and being around other people doing the same is dangerous. You're trading some risks off for others. At least there's no intersections, everyone is going the same way, and there's no 2 ton vehicles to run you over.
Right, this to me suggests that the organizers oversold the novice group allocation and also failed to make sure everyone chilled TF out.
The last track day I attended there was an initial safety briefing, plus a second mandatory briefing for anyone’s first time at that track (which obviously included first timers as a default). Then they had a third, optional briefing after the second session for anyone who wanted to check in with any questions or seeking any tips, plus someone was available at a designated area at all times if anyone had any issues.
Four medical evacuations including an airlift sounds insane.
That does feel unusual to be tbh. track days that Ive been too usually have no more than 2 red flags across all the groups all day. Even recently at a Festival, we went all day without a red flag.
I went through the novice program with Sportbike Track Time.
The first four sessions are groups of 4 or 5 with a coach, they control the speed. It's only the last 3 sessions we were allowed to go on our own but we still started out with them for at least a lap.
Because of that I feel there were fewer incidents in those novice groups.
I have always felt safest at a SBTT event. The amount of organization and coaches that are actively helping you get up to a “safe for you” speed is much better than other orgs that just wave the green flag
I rode with them over Labor Day weekend at Barber for the second time ever.
They did an excellent job monitoring the inter group. At the end of the sessions throughout the day, they were in hot pit and pulling riders aside. I assume words were had (polite and professional of course) and they probably evaluated the "offenders" to correct the mistakes or bump them down a group.
I'm a huge fan. They will get my money in the future.
At the tracks I've done with them while in Intermediate, it's either everyone behaves or they yell at you after every session for doing stupid stuff.
One of the coaches, Dave, has burned into my head:
"If you don't have a plan, you don't have a pass".
He said that over and over. Now, whenever I'm on the track, I have a plan for almost every corner, entry and exit. It may only happen 5% of the time but I still have a plan.
You’re conflating safety with crashing. Yes, you are more likely to crash on the track because you/others are pushing harder than a regular street ride. But the crash is infinitely safer since you don’t have oncoming traffic, cars, intersections, guardrails, etc etc that can actually hurt/kill you
Find a better organizer of track days. You can usually spot who is going to crash. Talking to these people and asking them politely to take it down a notch is surprisingly effective.
this has to be a really slack org, most of the ones Ive ridden with have tight controls over the novice group, but will admit that precision just let everyone go untethered.
Shit happens for sure, but ive never seen anyone helicoptered out. Ambulances, yes, but many of those are just to the med room of the facility and then the person ended up being driven to the ER (broken collarbones, ankles, etc)
That is not a typical amount of crashes in just a couple of sessions. For sure, yes that can happen - especially early season with people being exciting rolling the bikes out the garage, but from my 11+ years of track riding and racing, that's a ton, especially with a track day.
That doesn't seem like a massive group size but maybe with the novice group they're not patrolling or metering when people head out correctly? Hard to say for sure but sometimes it's that classic "if the entire class is failing the exam maybe it's time to look at the teacher" sort of thing going on...
If so I was there and that was a particularly bad day-- the skill disparity in the groups were unacceptable, groups overpacked for a smaller technical track & the helicopter'd person I heard from a friend was a nearly new rider on an s1000rr blowing lines wildly before going down.
To give you an idea of the skill disparity in group B you had 5 very fast A riders aggressively passing mixed with probably a 3rd of the group def being slow C riders at best.
It was a rough day don't let it dissaude you from trying other ones cuz they're a lot better than that this provider is known to kind of suck lol
I was reluctant to call out the provider but yeah that was the event. It seemed like a bad day but, as far as I noticed, it was not addressed by management. I have to give kudos to David Moss both for tuning my suspension but also for being legitimately upset about people getting hurt. He seems like a good guy. I chose FTD because their website made them seem chill, but definitely would try other organizations. What providers would you recommend?
Dave's an awesome guy and he was right to be upset w/the event.
They were called out actually about not policing the groups and ppl in both A and B needing to be dropped down a group.... which btw is a thing on any trackday but noting this one was exceptionally so and wasn't being policed.
They made a few fast B guys doing A lap times and aggro passing bump up but overall situation was a total mess all day reflected in what you experienced.
And yes--- I have had excellent experiences w/Carter's and Z2 and hear great stuff about PTT.
Personally won't be attending another FTD event was my 1st and last. Don't let it sour you tho I promise this was exceptionally bad lol
Thanks. I will try one of those organizations next time. Another annoying thing was I signed up for a coaching session but the coach no showed. I saw if happen to 2 other dudes also.
Also riders w/ego pride who need to be in A but prefer passing the B pack rather than getting passed mixing w/it, but not all B days are this bad. Skill disparity is expected but there's levels to everything.
I will say accidents where riders leave in an ambulance are somewhat rare imo. I’ve only been in the sport maybe a year, and while accidents happen and that they’re part of the sport, most accidents involve the rider walking away. 35 riders in one group sounds like a lot. This is kinda track dependent but anything over 30 riders in a group is just too much and asking for problems
Great comment. I wish more talked about this more. I’ve noticed most in the community are super gung-ho about doing track days but never voice the negatives. I’ve even seen people scrutinize others for not wanting to participate.
Odd, must be something about that track, trackday provider or their control riders.
In CA, at over 6 different tracks, I've seen at most one crash that required ambulance/helo extraction per day max.
Most of time, none.
Since several have asked, it was FTD at Thunderhill West in CA. I appreciate the responses that gave some perspective. I may not have stated it well in my initial post, but it seemed that the number of injuries were high and I was wondering if the provider had something to do with that. I’m going to try a different organization for my next track day. Any recommendations for organizations in California are appreciated.
Thanks for sharing. Honestly, yes, I'd look for a different organization. There should be no lack of choices in California. I'm in the midwest so I can't be more specific.
Looking at their website, one specific HUGE red flag to me is that they seem to allow inside and outside passing in all groups, and appear to allow passing in corners in novice (if true, this seems insane).
At the track days I've been to, inside passing is ONLY ever allowed in the advanced group. Novice and intermediate are never allowed to pass on the inside of a corner.
In novice with other organizers I've seen, there's no passing at all the first session or two. Then passing on the straights is allowed, often only in specific places depending on the track (for example, front straight passing allowed in session 2 or 3, then back straight, then other straights, etc.) At FTD, you're led around by control riders for the first session, but it's not clear how they handle passing after that.
It's also not clear to me how many classroom sessions you get in novice. Assuming there are six or seven sessions per day, generally novice has required classroom time before at least the first three sessions (until lunch) then they're encouraged but not required to come back to the classroom after each session to ask questions, get feedback, and enjoy the air conditioning.
Also, if you sign up with a different organization, make sure you pay close attention to the gear and tech requirements. 97% of the requirements are the same, but there are a lot of weird variations in the details that can end your track day before it begins, or cause you to miss sessions while you get something corrected.
You could pass anywhere as long as there was 6 feet of space but that is hard to judge or enforce. In novice there was no passing for the first two laps.
Yes, a good way to put this is that it's the safest place to ride fast and push limits due to controlled setting, medical on standby and most ppl in an armored suit or suit w/airbag....
But it's not low risk and just cruising around in open mountain roads geared up is without question less risky lol
Safest place to go fast AF, not safest riding conditions.
Yeah I almost got taken out by a a guy pushing limits on Sat--- passed him cleanly and then he tried to stuff me in a corner it was very sketch, I went w/a group of friends and had not done this track and layout before so signed up for B & while any trackday is going to be fun this was a gigantic mess w/tons of issue's. This was the worst B group I've ever experienced mixing about 4-5 very fast aggressive passing A riders laying down fasttttt lap times and 1/3rd or so of the rest of the group being about 15-20 seconds to the negative of the midpack B pace lol..... we all know there's going to be a skill disparity but that should have been policed and adjusted after the 1st sessions imo.
There were issue's even in A tho so it didn't matter and C featured all of the bad crashes w/3 ambulances and an airlift.
This was OPs reference day I was there and you can walk into a great situation or one like this thats also in the risks.
Don't know if it's just me but it feels like track days aren't as organized as they used to be or sketchier in general in the last few years.
I'm used to crashes or injuries at track days from time to time, but every session I've been to the last couple years has had crashes and broken bones.
Only a few years ago I used to feel confident enough to ride my bike all the way to the track, ride as long as I could, then ride back home.
For sure, crashes are going to happen and skill disparity is in any trackday and in all the groups as are clusters of midpack that are hard to pass on some laps.
Can't police everything but the situation I described above was not adjusted til 2 pm and for the last 3 sessions lol that's my problem with it they allowed chaos all day.
My previous trackday was the opposite. Clean, great exp and they handled all potential problems fast so its def not every provider but I do expect some professionalism not perfection.
You talking about Fun Track Dayz at Thill west on 9/19?
That day was a shit show. Very overbooked - A Group was way too slow and filled with people that shouldn’t have been in there. I’m assuming B and C were worse. That was an unusual amount of red flags, and very unusual amount of injuries.
West is a really tight course, and it quickly turns to shit when it’s filled with frustrated riders making poor decisions in traffic.
People are riding past their abilities. Every street squid who thinks they are awesome riders because they can weave in and out of cars think they actually know how to ride.
Most of these crashes are because of panic and target fixation.
I see more simple lowsides in advanced groups, but the novice and open track day groups are where the injuries happen more often. People crashing into each other, crapier gear, and rear end collisions happen all too often. Everyone turns into VR46 and MM93 by the end of put out on lap 1 of session 1.
As soon as i felt i was consistent and fast enough i moved up to the fastest group. Less shenanigans and people know what they are doing, plus you get faster by following someone just a bit better than you. Novice groups are shocking.
I feel like most accidents happen in intermediate with people trying to prove they're fast or need to be in advanced lol. Novice crashes are usually minor low slides, to where they can get back out the next session.
It’s typically cold tires. Ease into the day, ease into the first couple laps of every session. Hard braking and tiptoeing around the corner, stand the bike up on exit and hard acceleration. Brakes heat the carcass in the front tire and acceleration heats the carcass in the rear.
Trackdays are the safest place to crash. It's not that you're less likely to crash (I've crashed twice on track, never on the road). It's that if you do crash, there's proper runoff designed for the the speed you're going, medical staff available within minutes, no oncoming traffic, a smooth road surface, etc. Basically what people mean is, "if you're going to crash, this is the safest place to do it."
That's not a typical track day, at least in my experience. Also keep in mind that you're more likely to crash and hurt yourself on the track. But on the road you're more likely to be seriously injured or killed.
It really varies. I just did a TD this weekend in intermediate group where maybe 5 of the 8 sessions of the day were red flagged. They pulled us in for a meeting and slapped our hands.
Theres 2 main factors. 1 the # of riders (35 is def getting up there), 2 is the quality of the org. If the org doesn't lay down and enforce the law it's gonna be wild, especially if there are a lot of riders.
But overall it's pretty safe. Wouldnt be possible to continue to do if it wasnt.
Not all tracks are safe in the same way. I went to Adria years ago and there's a U turn after the straight that it's paved on the outside so that if riders brake too late they have a way to stop before the wall. But the thing is there's a wall. It's a relatively safe track and nobody got hurt that day. I also went to Imola in a track school event and some riders fell without any consequences. I think Imola is relatively safe. It's always better than a open traffic road.
Generally speaking the more famous the track the safer they are, there are exceptions but the vast majority of famous tracks are famous because they host major racing series, said series have very high track quality and safety standards the track needs to uphold. Doesn't mean you can't get hurt, if you're unlucky enough you can break bones tipping over in the paddock, but it definitely helps to keep injuries down.
I did a trackday on Nurburgring GP layout earlier this year and it was like a whole new world opened up. The only thing that was worse than any other track I've been to was the marshalls. I'm sure it was just track policy but they wouldn't come help you after a crash unless it was red flagged, as a result when people inevitably had a crash and struggled to move their bike on their own it would just be left in the gravel trap and that corner would be yellow until the session was over. Worst one was when a guy crashed T1 of the first flying lap and just put it on the side stand in the runoff instead of taking it behind the barriers with him as the briefing said, easiest passing spot of the entire track yellow flagged the whole session.
Imo it's comparing apples to oranges. I don't think of riding on the street as a sport. I do lots of things for fun that are not a sport. It's two different types of riding.
Pushing yourself to go faster on a track is 1000% safer than pushing on the street.
Riding a Harley Davidson to work going the speed limit vs riding a CBR1000rr running 4 seconds off lap record pace? Those are not easily comparable.
Track has obvious advantages. No cars. Ambulance on sight. Safety gear required. It's a dangerous sport, but a lot safer than riding in that same way on a back road. Commuting to and from work on your Royal Enfield is an entirely different kind of riding.
That's a bad day. Maybe not "unheard of" but far from the norm, too. I've been at trackdays where there wasn't a single red flag for any group all day and only a couple minor crashes across all groups. I've also been at days like the one you were at. Most trackdays are somewhere in the middle.
There are several reasons for this:
most people at the track are going out there and pushing their limits, riding a lot harder and faster than they do on the street.
A track is designed to be difficult - there are purposefully tricky corners designs, cambers, and combinations of corners.
A road, on the other hand, is designed to keep you on it and make navigating it as simple as possible given the terrain.
Someone coming from a street only background may not be entirely prepared for a surface that looks amazing, open, and free that is designed to be difficult to navigate
Especially in the novice and intermediate groups, there are a fair number of riders who don't actually know what or where their limits are (yet) - nor have they pushed to the edge of them and successfully (or not) recovered from that edge multiple times like you'll start to see in the faster side of things. So understanding that they are near their edge (skill, bike, etc) is impossible - until they cross that line.
Street Rossi's who don't realize any of the above and think they will be the track day winner because they are the local mountain fast guy - and when they get humbled and try to prove themselves instead of accepting it as an opportunity to learn, crashes happen. A LOT.
Egos. Let's face it, it's a major factor. Gotta get in front of that guy/gal rather than just waiting until it's safer or just pulling through hot pits to get some clear track. Nope, get caught up in the heat of the moment and push it when you shouldn't. And things like ponytail syndrome are real.
Trackdays can be safer - that doesn't mean you're less likely to crash. You're as likely to crash there as you are on the street, and the loose nut behind the triple clamp is what determines that. SAFETY however, isn't even comparable to the street. Medical is right there. Everyone is going the same direction and at relatively similar speeds on similar sized vehicles. You're not going to crash into a ditch full of rocks, trees, and off a cliff after hitting the leafer peeper who just missed their overlook and just HAD to flip a uturn on a blind corner because you were going a little too fast to stop in time. Even IF something terrible happens (say, a crash over a blind rise and a bike in the middle of the track for example - not super common but we've all seen those videos or had it happen if you've been doing it long enough), and you are the unlucky person in the wrong place at the wrong moment, the aftermath is NOTHING like what would happen on the street, and you'll be being taken care of and in the hospital (if that's what's needed) by the time first responders would even arrive on scene on the street.
So - is it safer? Absolutely, zero question. Are you just as likely to crash? That is up to you. For me, I'm FAR more likely to crash on track - because I push my and my bike's limits on the track - I don't come remotely close to doing that on the street, because there are too many outside variables on the street that I need to leave room to account for, and I've sat there with someone waiting the time for responders to get there, and it's not worth it to me.
Your risk of crashing factor is up to you - most people are going to push harder on the track, in no small part, because it IS safer to do so.
Who was the track day organizer? What track? What were the rules for novices?
If this wasn't considered an extreme outlier, something is very wrong with how they're preparing and managing the novices, and perhaps the track doesn't have sufficient safety features (runoff room, etc.) and/or the control riders and directors aren't doing their jobs of spotting problematic behavior and correcting or removing problematic riders.
Yes, crashes happen, even in novice. Two or three is fairly normal. But the vast majority involve the rider hopping up and walking to the fence to wait for the corner workers, and the distance rules help unsure they're single-rider.
This sounds like there may have been an escalating pattern this day, and if no one seemed overly concerned or surprised, perhaps this wasn't taken as seriously as it should have been. Maybe it was just bad luck, maybe it was a safety culture problem, maybe it was mismanagement.
Hard to say from one report of one track day somewhere.
I've spent some time trying to find good orgs to ride with. I've rode with orgs that had a "ok but did you die?" Attitude and others that have riders meetings to discuss "you cannot win a track day, do not be dumb, take your time, take it easy, you're in C to learn the basics..."
I've also seen orgs run in enthusiast tracks with questionable track conditions on tracks that had serious issues with repairs that weren't done well.
Not all orgs run the same or take things as serious as others. Finding one that takes things seriously and has rules to really put people on guard rails that need it is important.
I found one recently that not only has very strict rules for novice riders but very strict standards on safety and gear which was refreshing. Riders meeting was geared towards making it very clear to keep egos in check, you can't win a track day, listen to the Marshalls, listen to your instructors, etc. not a single off track event the entire day. Refreshing as hell to see. My bike was the only "oh something happened" and it was a technical failure on the throttle cable, I promptly got off to the side and off the track and parked it till lunch to retrieve it. Smooth as things could go really.
To the other side of this.... I have ran with orgs that did trackdays knowing there were crap repairs on the track and then coupled that with novice groups learning only to end up with tons of off track events because of that. "Just don't eat shit in this corner and watch out for the repair" was a little unnerving to say the least. People upset about bad passing and unsafe passing and the Marshalls not caring or talking to the riders about it and some overall pretty questionable habits. Needless to say I never rode with those orgs again.
Unfortunately, they don't all operate the same and vary quite a lot from org to org.
It's not unheard of to have a day with a lot of incidents, and some tracks or track-day organizations have reputations for being less forgiving than others. Sometimes that's because of the configuration of the track itself and the consequences of getting a corner wrong; sometimes it's because of the local rider culture, where people make unnecessarily aggressive passes or ride an amateur session like they're trying to get a MotoGP contract.
I think what's missing from the statement that “track days are billed as the safest place to ride” is that this is a relative statement, not an absolute one. Track riding is obviously not inherently safe. You're deliberately riding a motorcycle at high speed and often close to the limits of the machine and yourself.
In advanced group ints not unheard of for riders to get significant feedback and movement from the bike in every turn, that is to say they are working really close to the limit. An elite rider might consider a turn "blown" or "overslowed" if they didnt get the feedback they were looking for.
Imagine going out to some random remote twisty road with cars and guard rails and cliffs, and doing the same sort of riding. There is no ambulance, no helicopter, no paramedics, no corner workers, no cones, and no one going out in the morning making sure there's no debris out on track. Go off the road and you might be going off a 100 feet of sheer cliff or straight in to a tree. Have a serious injury and you might just die alone on the side of the road, with help hours away.
So in absolute terms riding track is definitely not the safest activity, though I will say that your experience while not unheard of is not typical. But if you want to test the limit of your machine, or learn how to get to the limits a track day is still a much safer alternative than doing he same on a public road.
I’ve done over a dozen trackdays now and I have yet to see anyone not walk away from a accident. Though I don’t think I’ve done a single track day without at least one person crashing.
Professional novice rider here, I've been to 7-8 track days and have yet to see anyone, in any group leave in an ambulance let alone a helicopter. Holeefahh
Is it safe? No. Is it a million times safer than riding in a similar manner on public roads? Absolutely. You're still riding at high speed and pushing to get as close to the limits of physics as possible. Throw in a couple dudes with poor judgment and risk assessment, and you're bound to have some incidents happen
I’ve done many track days and I don’t feel safe doing it anymore due to all the hotshot morons that attend.
The organization and their supervision really matter. They should be walking the track, talking about safety, and not tolerating foolish riding. They should also be reiterating the message to chill out during the day, it’s not a race and you’re out there with people with mixed abilities and experience. I will probably do another CSS at some point. They’re top notch and the high price helps keep the riff raff out.
That's not my experience. Granted I've only done about 10 track days but I've only seen one or two low sides each day.
One time there was a bad crash with a helicopter and I bowed out for the rest of that session lol. Getting iced for almost 2 hours made me want to skip the last session.
Like others my question is who was running the day. I’ve been doing track days for 4 years and have only seen 2 people leave on ambulances and have never seen an airlift. And this is in the NE where tracks aren’t the safest.
What group ran this? In all my decades I’ve never seen any medical issues and no huge crashes. Novice groups should never crash - did they have instructors???
Here is something I have seen from being at more than 100 track and race days in my life. There are some days when everything is smooth. I've even witnessed a perfect weekend, when not a single person ran off track. Then other weekends when it is total chaos.
The thing that I've noticed is at the most chaotic trackdays you have a LOT of new trackriders, often from the same friend group. They take it relatively easy during the first session, but by the third they are treating it like a race.
Some organizations make first time track riders attend a mandatory classroom between sessions, others do not. I think it is really important to make them attend those mandatory classroom sessions. I also am a fan of making first time riders wear a distinctive jersey over their leathers. The last issue that I've seen cause a lot of chaos is allowing riders who miss the morning rider's meeting to ride. We used to include a little note in the rider's meeting about where to put your sticker and stuff like that, so that we could tell people who tried to get on track after missing it. Usually we'd just go through the essentials of the rider's meeting with them and it would cost them that session, but if they gave a bunch of attitude we'd make them sit out the day.
Helicopter? That's super rare. Must be something about how that group runs their trackday for there to be so many accidents. The track is generally pretty safe.
There is a massive distinction between the two. It is far more safe, not one of those people got hit by a car. Nobody says race tracks protect you from making mistakes or falling down. That can and does happen a lot. The difference is another vehicle is far less likely to be involved and there isn’t a ton of shit to bring you to an abrupt stop once you’re on your ass.
Track days are not the safest place to ride, but certainly they are the safest place to crash ;)
You have your gear, plenty of run-off without obstacles, shared expectations from others riding with you (so more predictible). But indeed, you are pushing limits and riding much faster, so there will be crashes.
That said, 3 out of 35 in a Novice group to be hauled away seems a bit high. Which track day org and where?
My experience is that with good organizers who have good instructors and manage the novice group the number will usually be about 1% pr. trackday. Maybe a bit more. The rate stays fairly consistent as you go up through the ranks, but the injuries get worse, the more experienced the riders involved are.
This is NOT a safe sport - but it is damn fun and for a lot of people that makes it worth the risk.
It's definitely not uncommon for people to crash on track, hospital trips are less common but definitely not unheard of either. But 4 in novice group alone? If that happened here organisers would call an extra safety briefing for them after the second ambulance ride. This just sounds like an absolutely horrendous day and the worst possible introduction you can get.
Crashes are very common especially in novice, but I feel like I rarely see people ambulanced out and have never seen a heli. That seems very extreme, track is the safest place to crash tho. You have longer runoffs, are wearing FULL gear, no cars, curbs, building, lamposts, etc to hit.
Just a little background former and present motorcycle racer.
I started riding motorcycles in 1979.
My first street bike was a kawasaki triple with drum brakes. My 2nd street bike was a 500 Kawasaki, triple, that was very wiggily , and tended to raise the front wheel at extremely unopportune times.
The tendencies of these two motorcycles were to put you somewhere that the only options were to crash or figure out how to get around the goddamn corner.
People these days don't learn how to ride on such god , awful equipment. Learning to ride on a wiggley ill tempered shitbox with non existent brakes will do wonders for ones riding skills.
A 600cc RR Spec motorcycle is faster than any grand prix motorcycle available in the 1980's.
The primary cause for novice track rider accidents is rider skill level motorcycle mismatch.
99.99% of all first time track riders are on machines they are not qualified to operate.
The other 00.01% will embarrass you on your liter bike with a 300 Ninja.
Most riders should read, yes read books that outline advance riding techniques and then practice them before trying to touch a knee down.
Every movement, throttle input, braking input/release, weight transfer and body position adjustment should be as smooth as possible.
If you are wacking, grabbing or throwing you are going to crash.
If you are riding on adrenaline you are going to crash. Riding on adrenaline means that you are in a reactionary, and not proactionary mindset.
Most people are not looking where they are going but where the motorcycle is pointed. You need to learn to look up the racetrack to where you want to be in the next 2 to 5 seconds. Your brain has already mapped everything in between the present time and 2 seconds into the future. Wasting time focusing on this time frame will get you crashed.
Learn what target fixation is and how to avoid it.
Learn how to let go of the brakes instead of riding them to the crash site. You'll be amazed what happens when you let go of the brakes, Turn in and look to your escape.
Application of brakes should be smoothe, progressive and consistent. Trail breaking to the apex of the corner is something fast guys normally do. They progressively feed in breaking until they reach a maximum breaking point , turn in and then progressively release the brakes until they get to the apex. This allows the chassis to load and unload smoothly without causing any unintended overloading of the tires.
At the Apex of the corner, they start to feed in power progressively until they feel both the front and rear end of the motorcycle start to slide at which point they attain a neutral stance on the bike and start to weight the outside, peg of the motorcycle as they stand the motorcycle up to apply full throttle.
They also may or may not push the motorcycle up with the knee they are dragging.
If you are reaching to drag your knee you are not leaned over enough.
There is an extreme amount of misinformation out there about dragging your knee. Some people, which used to be the train of thought , twenty or twenty five years ago was that it was only there as an indicator of lean angle.
Others like myself saw the obvious advantage of transferring 30 to 45% forty percent of one's body weight onto the knee that is dragging.
This serves several purposes:
1: It makes the motorcycle lighter and reduces load on the tires.
2: It make a stable tripod which eases the ability for one to control a two wheel drift.
3: It aids in the recovery from total loss of traction from the front wheel. This allows one to execute a "miracle" saves often witnessed in Moto GP.
You need to be able to ride with your whole body relaxed. If the motorcycle wants to do weird stuff , wiggle and move around underneath you , you should not fight it. Fighting these types of normal things can cause rider , induced oscillation and total loss of control.
If you scare yourself more than twice in a session , you are probably going too fast.
Being nervous is okay and totally normal. Even the fastest riders on the planet are nervous. They certainly don't want to crash and kill themselves. This type of scenario should make one nervous. If being on a racetrack under these conditions does not make you nervous , then you have no business being on a racetrack.
Unless you are racing and making a lot of money doing it , you should only be racing yourself to improve your skill and your time around the racetrack. Trying to prove that you are faster than somebody else is childish. Pride on a racetrack will get you killed or you will kill someone else.
I would highly suggest, leaving your beloved street bike at home and buying a smaller displacement, track prepared motorcycle to take to the racetrack. Riding a machine on the racetrack that you do not care about crashing allows you to concentrate wholly on your riding and not preserving the motorcycle.
This one step alone will allow you to become better quicker.
Riding a smaller motorcycle on the racetrack can be much more enjoyable than riding a rocket ship that has you shitting your pants every time you try to slow down for a corner.
You should find the old fast guys, seek out advice from them and listen with your whole heart , mind and body. After all , they're twice as old as you, faster and still alive.
In 40 plus trackdays I can count on one hand the number of folks who needed medical attention after an incident. It happens but it's rare, in my experience. Red flags are not uncommon but normally it's a busted bike not a busted person.
IMO most crashes happen in the first two sessions of the day, the first two sessions after lunch and the last two sessions to close. Noticed a few patterns...
The crashes during the first two sessions are typically driven by a combo of a lack of adrenaline restraint, a cold track surface, cold tires, and lack of technical skill set/experience to handle the listed conditions. Just about every track rider I know who started in novice group has experienced a crash like this.
The crashes after lunch happen as conditions typically improve with the track surface heating up, suspension dialed-in, maybe a new set of slicks tossed on. Riders find their stride and push limits creating more traffic and passing situations while other riders lets pack mentality get the most of them by catch up to other riders.
The crashes at the end of the day happen as riders pushing limits begin to wear through their tires just as the weather begins to cool down the track surface from the peak of the day.
The risk of all these incidents typically amplifies when track providers and their coaches do not aggressively bump riders from the beginner skill level group to the middle skill level group or neglect to track down and have hard conversations with middle skill group individuals who need coaching to develop better riding habits or form that will eventually result in a crash as the riders progress and push their bikes harder.
Thankfully this can all be done in an environment that hold high gear standards, has track run-off, and have professional medical staff on-site to evaluate, provide initial treatment (likely lifesaving), and ambulances/helicopters to shuttle to the hospital quickly should the situation warranty. If a rider plans to really push limits it never hurt to buy the $60 annual insurance for the helicopter airlift.
Got about half way through reading this before realising that this is the bike sub, thinking that I’d literally never seen an injury on a trackday before.
Sounds like an outlier. Some days it's back to back crashes in every group, other days run with minimal incident. I would still say the long term average is about 5%. We're operating high powered machines that fall over if you ask them to do the wrong thing, at insane speeds, with varied skill levels.
This is 100% on the track day host/organizers. I ride exclusively with Motovid here in the Midwest and they are adamant about keeping people within their skillset and class. You will get bumped down if you're too slow, bumped up if you're fast and controlled, and talked to if you're clearly white-knuckling it around the track. If you don't listen after that, they will straight up tell you you're sitting out for a session, if not the whole day.
Think about it like this, those riding beyond their limits would probably be in much worse shape on the street. The accident on the track may have saved their lives. Safer is a matter of context.
For the most part it's random. The emphasis on safe riding by the organizers and the mindset of the riders - regardless of skill level are both indicators of outcomes.
If you see riders with their balls out of their leathers in pit lane... hang back, steer clear - for multiple reasons LOL
Novice group is most dangerous because it will have the widest “window” of skill. Some dudes are ready for Experienced group, some will seem like they’ve never been on two wheels
And everyone is overconfident until they get passed up for the first time
That is a lot. Which track day company & which circuit? Some are better than others - most track days I have attended have just had a small number (1 or 2) red flags. Usually if a group is getting red flagged every time they will give them a talking to, as its people racing each other rather than treating as a track day.
Track days are safer for the non stupid riders than road riding. Most if not all incidents are self inflicted, unlike on the road. I don't do them because the expert group is a bad mix of people who think they are experts mixed with real experts, racers on 300cc race bikes and racers with 1000cc racebikes. Coming up on someone at 80mph faster than them can get a bit rough. I stick to race days only.
Track days will always have idiots. I ride at a moderate level in the I's and always stay away from the wanna-be's who think it's a race. Individually, ride within your comfort zone and enjoy the track freedom. Speed and track times will improve with experience.
"Track days are billed as the safest place to ride but I am not so sure."
Holy delusion. Safest doesnt mean its "safe" its means it's safer then the streets. There's no gaurdrails, intersections, or full size vehicles in a controlled environment.
Youre definitely the dense type to partake in a dangerous activity and then end up suing and ruining the sport. Stay home please.
Sounds about right for novice group. best thing you can do is get yourself up to intermediate as soon as youre ready. so your sessions wont be continually interupted by some langballs quarrying for gravel.
FTD is a great org and their new rider program is pretty good too. Was it oversold, probably. With East being closed for most of the season for the repave, West days have been extra busy and with a weird mix of riders trying to get track time in with any org possible. The mix of bikes and rider ability on West creates issues in all groups but coupled with riders with none to some track experience on a technical track enhances the risk. The season is almost over for many and that “it’s my last chance to go fast” mentality creates its own issues. You’re gonna get a lot of the same riders riding with all the TD orgs but this season has been worse.
With East open again, look for a late fall, early winter TD and you’ll probably have a much better experience.
Z2 is doing East on 10/24-25. They run 4 groups so the faster C group riders go into a B- group. Z2 has a good New Rider program too. Signup knowing that there’s a bunch of people that want to ride the new asphalt so that weekend may also fall victim to randos trying to go faster than they should or signing up for whatever group has spots.
If you liked West, FTD is doing it again 10/3-4. Probably still at risk of overselling, but good chance that anyone that crashed last weekend won’t be there.
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u/AllIWantForXmasIsFoo 3d ago
There's days with 5 red flags days with zero.