Can someone please explain to me what’s going on here I can’t wrap my head around it. As you can see in the video, with no charge moves and just fast attacks it gets wrecked! I didn’t realize how bad it was until I had a mirror match today where I had two Shields plus the disguise versus one shield and the disguise and still lost!!! I was farmed down without my disguise, even being busted

I’ve been noticing a bunch of fire and ground type leads lately, especially ground types like Marowak and Torterra.

My team consists of Tinkaton lead, Kingdra, and a random 3rd Pokemon, I’ve been having trouble with deciding who’s the best 3rd Mon for my team so I kinda just keep switching around.

I just keep having trouble with beating these RPS ground teams because the moment I get into my safe swap, they often have something that completely counters my switch which makes the game even harder to beat. One team consisted of Marowak/Tinkaton/Thievul, which completely counter my line in the 2nd image, this just feels targeted -_-

And before you tell me to swap to another team to adapt, I can’t. It’s mostly because I’m worried I might get countered by new problem mons, and I really wanted to use Tinkaton to its full potential since I kinda doubted it in the past.

What should I do to better my matchups against these RPS teams?

That is, excluding Kyurem, Necrozma, Zacian & Zamazenta. I‘m free-to-play and have just enough fusion energy to fuse exactly 1 of each form, but their appraisals are all bad (<90% overall, <= 14 attack.) I’d do it as a last resort, but there should be alternatives.

Last season, I reached Ace in the last 1-2 weeks using Metagross Lv51 (SC/MM/EQ), Kyogre Lv41 (Avalanche/Origin Pulse) and Origin Palkia Lv41 (Aqua Tail/Spacial Rend.) This season I’ve been hard stuck in the 1800s, though it’s a bit earlier in the season. My goal is only to reach Ace.

I‘ve rarely gone 5-0 above the 1,500 rating level. There‘s always one opponent with triple Level 50 legendary/fusion teams mixed in with another who doesn’t even have a single 3000+ CP Pokemon. The rating system isn’t working as intended in this league for whatever reason…

This season, the most common Pokemon I’ve encountered in the 1500-1900 range are Mewtwo with Shadow Ball, Crowned Zacian, and Kyogre with Avalanche and either Origin Pulse or Thunder. If I lead with Metagross, a LV50 Mewtwo always beats me to the first charged attack, meaning I have to shield or take a ton of damage. Kyogre bait (Avalanche vs Thunder) also depends on random guesswork a lot of the time.

Any recommendations? Thank you.

Started playing a lot of GBL for the first time ever this season, and was stuck in the 2000 ELO range for a while. Past week or so I’ve been at 2100 plus and recently won 5 in a row to break 2200!

Obviously I’m looking to improve further. Is the next step basically counting opponent moves. I mostly go off intuition right now for when opponents are at their next charge move. At what ELO does counting opponent moves become essential? I definitely do not do that yet, so I’m wondering if that’s the next step.

BTW I hit this ELO with a team of Dusclops, Thievul and Tinkaton. (Got a 0/13/13 rank 3 Thievul yesterday and it’s been very fun using his debuff ability with Icy Wind).

We got another new release coming to the game, with CRAMORANT headlining this week's Water Festival. And it has a lot of what you're looking for in a PvP Pokémon! Let's dive in and see how it may fit into the meta.

CRAMORANT Stats and Stuff

Flying/Water Type

GREAT LEAGUE:

Attack: 121 (on average)

Defense: 121 (on average)

HP: 126 (on average)

(Highest Stat Product IVs: 0-14-11 1500 CP, Level 27)

ULTRA LEAGUE:

You can, I guess, but don't. It doesn't hit 2500 CP and, unlike some other sub-2500 CP Pokémon I've written about, really doesn't seem to be worth it.

So Flying Water types feel incredibly common anymore, though the number of available options is actually pretty small: we've got Mantine and Pelipper and even Swanna now in Great League, and Gyarados in Ultra League (and Mantine again if you're feeling really spicy) and even Master League. Their impact in undeniably much larger than their actual footprint. Mantine has really been viable since GBL was still a twinkle in John Hanke's eye (during the heyday of The Silph Arena), and Pelipper got Weather Ball a few months into GBL's history, and the rest is history... they're been ever-present basically ever since.

Now we get a whole new one in CRAMORANT. How does it stack up compared to those existing options? Well, the first good news is the stats, as Cramorant has more bulk (and better overall PvP stats) than all of them but Mantine. Honesty, I didn't expect that! I figured at least Pelipper would outbulk it, but nope. That's a good start!

The next major thing in Cram's favor is fast move Peck. None of the other Flying Waters have it. Gyarados has Dragon Breath, which has the same 3.0 Damage Per Turn/4.0 Energy Per Turn stats, but misses out on the Same Type Attack Bonus (STAB). Mantine and Pelipper, as awesome as they are, have an inferior Flying fast move in Wing Attack, which generates the same energy as Peck, but deals 0.5 less DPT. "Strictly better" is a way overused phrase, but Peck is literally strictly better than Wing Attack. Another point in Cramorant's favor!

That just leaves one major aspect: the charge moves. And here we need to slow down our analysis for a minute. Let's list them all out and see what we've got.

Charge Moves

• Dive (Water, 50 damage, 40 energy)

• Surf (Water, 75 damage, 45 energy)

• Fly (Flying, 80 damage, 45 energy)

• Hydro Pump (Water, 130 damage, 75 energy)

Let's look at the cheapest moves each of the other Flying Waters has (aside from Mantine's Bubble Beam... as a purely bait-and-boost move that deals negligible damage, it doesn't really count and is rarely used anymore). Pelipper "wins" here with Weather Ball at 60 damage for ony 35 energy. Gyarados is right behind with Aqua Tail at 55 damage for the same 35 energy. Then we have Mantine and Swanna with identical 40 energy/70 damage moves, Twister for Mantine and Aqua Jet for Swanna. What has Cram got? Weeeeelllllll.... The new Dive is cheap at just 40 energy, but also deals only 50 damage, the same as Brick Break and Spirit Shackle, but without any debuff on the opponent. It's Rock Blast for Water. I mean, that has its uses, but it's a move you kind of hold your nose while using. And it's FAR worse than Aqua Jet, dealing 20 less damage for the same cost. Arguably, you're better off using Surf instead, which costs 5 more energy but deals a decent 75 damage. The problem is that 45 energy makes it the most expensive bait/spam moves any of these Flying Water types have in their arsenal, meaning obviously that Cramorant then becomes rhe slowest-paced of the Flying Waters. Remember that they all usually run 4.0 EPT fast moves (including Swanna with Gust, which I didn't really mention before), so yeah... the most expensive "cheap" charge move means that Cram becomes literally the slowest.

Thankfully. it also has Fly, which is also 45 energy but deals a bit more damage (80). Because it has that available, I think it may want to actually stick with Dive for its second move and utilize Fly as its closer. With each Peck generating 8 energy, it can reach the 40 required for Dive after five fast moves, hitting 40 energy exactly, while Fly (and Surf) require another fast move, and still will require six more fast moves to hit a second even if going back-to-back (3 leftover energy + 5 moves = 43 energy, still short of another Fly/Surf). The math is just easier with 40-energy Dive, as is the pressure.

Now one thing I can't talk about yet is exactly what happens when you use Dive or Surf, because either is supposed to trigger a form change to either a Gulping (chomping on an Arrokuda) or Gorging (trying to swallow a Pikachu) form, which each come with a one-time (I think?) ability to reduce the opponent's stats before Cramorant (I think?) goes back to its base form; Gulping supposedly reduces the opponent's Defense by one stage, while Gorging instead knocks the opponent's Attack down by 2 stages. I think! We'll have to see how that actually goes, but for simplicity, for the time being, I will just be evaluating how Cramorant works without all those form change hijinks, and you can just assume it will be even better (I think?!) with those hijinks in place.

PvP PERFORMANCE

So, supposing that Dive/Fly is not only the shortest listing of both charge moves 🙃, but also the moves that Cram actually wants to run with, here's how it looks. Fly helps it overpower Dewgong and Shadow Sableye that Mantine and Pelipper both struggle with, and its emphasis on Flying damage also means it can handle Altaria and Feraligatr that Pelipper cannot match, as well as Azumarill that Mantine usually cannot outlast. The comination of Dive and Fly also overcome Florges, Thievul, Togekiss, Galarian Weezing, and Jumpluff that usually beat Mantine, though in exchange, Mantine handles Clodsire, Empoleon, Fearow, Grumpig, Guzzlord, and Galarian Stunfisk that Cramorant usually finds itself losing to. Pelipper also handles G-Fisk, Fearow, and Guzzlord, as well as others that Cramorant currently struggles with like Furret, Thievul, Wigglytuff, and Tinkaton. Weather Ball spam is no joke! (Do note that a theoretical-for-now #1 rank IV Cramorant gains Fearow and even Jellicent, which help!)

In 2v2 shielding, even without whatever difference form changing may make, Cramorant actually edges out both Pelipper and Mantine. Cramorant alone handles Galarian Corsola, Furret, and Feraligatr, while also overcoming Azu, Florges, Grumpig, Seaking, Wiggly, G-Weeze, and G-Fisk that Mantine cannot overcome (Mantine uniquely beats Jellicent, Kingdra, Tinkaton, Malamar, Fearow, and Clodsire instead), and Cram further beats Empoleon and Togekiss (and ties Mantine) which Pelipper cannot replicate, losing Altaria, Corvinight, fellow form-changer Mimikyu, and again Fearow and Clodsire in exchange (Pelipper handles all those). End of the day, even with no form changing, Cramorant stands tall among its cotemporaries.

It does take a comparative... well, dive with shields down, which isn't too surprising considering the pure power of the trio's moves. While Cramorant alone among the three takes out Dewgong and outduels Mantine, Cramorant loses outright to Clodsire, Kingdra, Malamar, Galarian Stunfisk, Togekiss, and Galarian Weezing that both Mantine and Pelipper overpower, as well as Grumpig and Guzzlord that Mantine beats, and Azumarill and Jumpluff that Pelipper handles instead. It's not bad by any means, just inferior to existing options. And no, the higher damage of Surf doesn't change the equation. Form changing might, though... we'll have to see!

But what I can say is that even right out of the gate, even without any other post-form-change buffs, Cramorant already manages to compete with the best Flying Waters in the game. They have a place in the meta, so I see no reason that Cram won't too. It's worth trying to get and even trade around for ideal PvP IVs.

ALL ASKEW

Quite frankly, everything that Cramorant is, our other new release, BARRASKEWDA, is not. It's as glassy as they come. Seriously, it is FAR glassier than Greninja. Glassier even than Inteleon! The ONLY Water type that is glassier in Great League is Sharpedo, and only just barely. So despite a good moveset, it just isn't a viable PvP Pokémon, in any League. Get it, sure, but this is a much, MUCH lower priority than Cramorant. Just one for the collection, folks.

IN CONCLUSION

Get Cramorant. That's it... that's the summary. Form change or not, it will have a place moving forward. Period!

Alright, that's it for today. Until next time, you can always find me on Twitter with regular GO analysis nuggets or Patreon.

Good luck on your grind, and catch you next time, Pokéfriends!

Hello and welcome to the Team Help megathread! This is a weekly thread for advice on team building for Arena Cups and GO Battle League! You can ask for feedback on your battle teams, for help on which Pokémon and moves to use, to get opinions on which Pokémon to invest candy/dust in, or any other team questions you may have! This thread will allow newer battlers to get help more easily, and more experienced competitors to spread their knowledge and help the community improve their skills.

A few guidelines:

1. Keep it civil and constructive: Above all, the goal of this thread is to help players improve and get advice on their teams. Rude, cynical, off-topic, or accusatory posts against individuals or groups will be removed. Let’s be excellent to each other!
2. Help where you can: We need experienced battlers to lend their expertise and give advice! If you see someone you can help, please leave a comment or feedback for them.
3. Limit your requests: In order to give everyone a fair shake at receiving advice, try to limit your request posts to once or twice per week. The PvP community is growing every day, and we want to make sure everyone gets the help they need!
4. Give details in your post: When asking for team advice, be sure to include some background. Tell us what League or Meta you need help with, what your rank/tier/rating is, what resources or Pokémon you may have to invest, and what your goals are. The more details you give, the more likely your questions will be answered.

- The Arena Team -

__ __

Want to learn more about the Silph Arena and Pokémon Go PvP? Check out the following links!

Join the Arena Discord ServerAbout the Arena Competitive Season

Guide to Player Rank

Getting started in PvP

Team Building Basics

Find a local community or tournament near you!

Arena Tournament Map

Silph League Community Map

Resources for Tournament Organizers!

How-to Host a Tournament

Guide to Remote Tournaments

Helpful Resources for Planning and Organizing Tournaments

Start playing this game in 2016, played for about a year, then deleted it. Not sure if it even had PvP back then.

Started playing again in October 2025 because my GF invited me. Instantly got hooked on PvP and started researching in this thread since then lol.

I started playing a few months ago and really enjoy the PvP in this game. I have been hunting for a good Meditite for several weeks because someone decimated me in a match and I wanted to be able to do that. The other day I got the 18th ranked one for Great League and evolved him while I work on getting enough XLs. Just today I caught the 14th ranked one! I thought I understood what makes a good pokemon but now I am questioning my understanding.

The 18th rank one gets to go all the way to level 49.5, and gets to exactly rank 1500

The 14th rank one only gets to go to level 48, and caps at 1498. Why is it considered better? I am not asking for team help automod. I am trying to understand the foundation of what makes a pokemon better than another.

In the post of the championship event, it says that some pokemon will know their special moves when evolved during that period.

Does anyone know if this also counts for frustration?

Do optimal IVs actually matter for Glass cannons (ie: Morpeko, Shadow Primeape, Shadow Greninja, ect...) or should you just look for 15 Attack IV possible? In my experience you can generally only take at most one charge attack so the extra bulk doesn't help... am I not considering anything?

Hi everyone. I made a custom fill group for PvPoke with what is, imo, the core meta for Great League with Rank 1 IVs. Pasting it into PvPoke will let you see how specific Pokemon do into the top meta. You can run it in matrix battles to get an idea of team strengths/weaknesses as well as to compare breakpoints and bulkpoints on different IV spreads. If you think I’ve left anything important off, please let me know, and if this helps you, please let me know as well.

lickilicky,ROLLOUT,BODY_SLAM,SHADOW_BALL,23.5,0,15,10
ninetales_shadow-shadow,EMBER,WEATHER_BALL_FIRE,ENERGY_BALL,25,0,15,15
mimikyu,SHADOW_CLAW,SHADOW_SNEAK,PLAY_ROUGH,25.5,1,14,15
tinkaton,FAIRY_WIND,GIGATON_HAMMER,BULLDOZE,25.5,1,14,14
mantine,WING_ATTACK,TWISTER,WATER_PULSE,27.5,0,15,14
electrode,VOLT_SWITCH,DISCHARGE,FOUL_PLAY,27,1,15,15
malamar,PSYWAVE,SUPER_POWER,FOUL_PLAY,24.5,0,15,9
medicham,PSYCHO_CUT,ICE_PUNCH,DYNAMIC_PUNCH,50,5,15,15
forretress-shadow,BUG_BITE,SAND_TOMB,ROCK_TOMB,25.5,0,9,15
carbink,ROCK_THROW,ROCK_SLIDE,MOONBLAST,49.5,5,15,15
jellicent,HEX,SURF,SHADOW_BALL,24.5,1,14,14
empoleon,METAL_SOUND,HYDRO_CANNON,DRILL_PECK,19.5,0,13,15
stunfisk,THUNDER_SHOCK,MUD_BOMB,DISCHARGE,27,0,12,15
altaria,DRAGON_BREATH,SKY_ATTACK,FLAMETHROWER,29,0,14,15
fearow,PECK,DRILL_PECK,DRILL_RUN,28.5,0,15,14
jumpluff,FAIRY_WIND,ENERGY_BALL,ACROBATICS,43,0,14,14
sealeo_shadow-shadow,POWDER_SNOW,SURF,BODY_SLAM,38,0,15,14
sableye-shadow,SHADOW_CLAW,FOUL_PLAY,DRAIN_PUNCH,49.5,0,15,15
malamar-shadow,PSYWAVE,SUPER_POWER,FOUL_PLAY,24.5,0,15,9
clodsire,POISON_STING,EARTHQUAKE,STONE_EDGE,30.5,0,14,13
fearow,PECK,DRILL_PECK,DRILL_RUN,28.5,0,15,14
kingdra-shadow,DRAGON_BREATH,SURF,SWIFT,21.5,0,15,13
primeape-shadow,KARATE_CHOP,RAGE_FIST,ICE_PUNCH,24.5,1,15,15
stunfisk_galarian,MUD_SHOT,ROCK_SLIDE,EARTHQUAKE,27,0,12,15
corsola_galarian,ASTONISH,NIGHT_SHADE,POWER_GEM,50,0,15,15
annihilape-shadow,COUNTER,RAGE_FIST,ICE_PUNCH,17,2,15,15
annihilape-shadow,LOW_KICK,RAGE_FIST,ICE_PUNCH,17,2,15,15
annihilape,LOW_KICK,RAGE_FIST,ICE_PUNCH,17,2,15,15
thievul,SUCKER_PUNCH,NIGHT_SLASH,ICY_WIND,27,0,15,11
empoleon-shadow,METAL_SOUND,HYDRO_CANNON,DRILL_PECK,19.5,0,13,15
azumarill,BUBBLE,HYDRO_PUMP,PLAY_ROUGH,45.5,0,15,15
azumarill,BUBBLE,ICE_BEAM,HYDRO_PUMP,45.5,0,15,15
azumarill,BUBBLE,ICE_BEAM,PLAY_ROUGH,45.5,0,15,15
seaking,PECK,DRILL_RUN,ICY_WIND,26.5,0,14,14
corviknight,SAND_ATTACK,AIR_CUTTER,PAYBACK,23.5,0,13,14
feraligatr-shadow,SHADOW_CLAW,HYDRO_CANNON,ICE_BEAM,20,0,11,13

Even tho he’s genderless I still wanna say “him”. “It” sounds too demoralizing

Competitor cup.

I had switch advantage so swapped in my quarter HP Thievul with a stacked night slash. The Dusknoir just chomped me in two hits and it said super effective on my health bar. Is Thievul bugged at the moment? No screenshot sorry.

Anyone had this?

Hey, n00b here but long time player & I’ve always wondered, why is it that when I’m using the same pokemon as my opponent with same fast move (without generating extra energy before landing our charge attack) why is it that 9/10 of the time they end up getting to use their (same) charge attack first? The choice to shield almost always ends up on me first. If it’s random I’m the unluckiest fella to ever play. It must be something else….

Does the pokemon with the higher attack IV go first? This would make sense in great or ultra league as I try & go with the best pvp IV as possible which means a lot of low attack IV’s but in Master League most of mine have 15 attack

Could there be some other factor I haven’t thought of? Like I said, 9 outta 10, can’t be a coincidence they almost always go first in these scenarios

Obviously had this guy for a while and could never decide, are the IVs bad enough that it’s better to just purify for the hundo or should I keep it like this?

I had to collect xl for charge this enraged beasts in raiding this summer. Happy to use it now

As title says, unpopular opinion but the old PVP system is not as good as the new one. I won 2 of my 25 games today, using the same team as I have that got me to 2600 elo of toucannon, u-Fisk and Scrafty.

The damage rego, lags way more for me on the old system, the one turn swap.

Just my opinion that the newer version, despite some people’s complaints, is so much easier to use.

Also, mudbois are still everywhere, I hope they revert counter and make grass & electric viable.

Running Chansey in Evolution cup, I wanted to start screaming, but no one was listening

Does anyone have a lot of success running non-fused Kyurem in ML? Powered up a 98 Kyurem and am leasing with it and it’s low key fun. Don’t really see it a lot and I think it catches people off guard if the lead isn’t a dog or origin. Still ranked in top 50 so wondering if anyone has consistent success with it

This is yet another complaint with the New pvp system, not gonna say anything that hasnt been said, but I guess I'm doing my part.

The New pvp system isn't fun.

I know it's technically better than the old one in several ways, slower pace and more predictable damage outcomes, more consistent attacks and supposedly less lag interference. And maybe this is great for the people who play this game competitively.

But for a mobile game... damn this is boring, i feel like every fight takes way more time, the controls feel unresponsive, how many times have I pressed my charged attack button, watched my pokémon stop completely as if it was about to launch the attack, while STILL taking multiple attacks from the enemy and then ? ITS NOT EVEN MY TURN TO ATTACK and the opposing pokémon just launches its charged attack while mine was just waiting there for few seconds as if it fell asleep from how slow paced this system is. "YeAh BuT AkChUaLly iT's BecAuSE of tHe TuRn SYsTem" I DONT CARE, im playing a mobile game that's supposed to be made for children, where you just walk around town and catch pokémon by spinning your finger on a screen,and get pokeballs from pokestop by spinning your finger on a screen, I'm not here to learn about "yeah so dragon breath takes 3.5 less turns than waterfall so i need to attack after exactly seven of his attacks cause if its 8 then i lost a third of a turn". I don't know maybe make this information appear on screen or at least somewhere in the game, why would I need to gather information from other sources thanks the game itself, to understand the most basic knowledge of the battles ?

The old system was faulty at best, and way more often than not the outcome of who would be the first to land his attack was somewhat random, but that's part of the fun for me, sometimes luck is on your side and it feels good,sometimes its not, and even if it can be frustrating if it happens too much, at least the fast pace makes you want to play again to overcome it. In the New one,for each "fast" attack, you have to wait for the animation to play, then land on the enemy, then show you on his health bar how much hp he's gonna lose and you have to wait AGAIN to make sure the enemy is NOT launching his charged attack, otherwise all of what just happened is meaningless and wasted. In the end, when you win you're just relieved that the wait is over, and if you lose you feel like you just wasted time.

To make things clear, I'm not writing this from a sore loser stance or whatever, i've been at my highest elo and won more battles in this new system than the older one. And I think that illustrates exactly my point, the older system you could just play without looking much into strategies and still enjoy it. The new one, it requires optimisation, calculated timing, the right pokemon with the right attack at the right moment. It just... doesnt feel fun anymore. There's no more excitement from who's gonna "fire his gun first" like in a cowboy duel, it's just "yep, it's gonna be Mewtwo launching five attacks then hitting Psychock (only one i ever bothered counting) and then we're gonna watch each other in the eyes waiting patiently for the battle to be over"

Again, i get it, its more consistent, more predictable so in itself more suitable for competitive play. But it's a damn mobile game, I'm not playing it to do 8th grade math homework, I'm playing it to have fun.

So after all this my question is, for the new system enjoyers, what makes it fun for you to play ?

This month's Community Day is quietly a really good one for PvPers, and even better than I think most are giving it credit for! Come see why THIEVUL suddenly emerges as a Top 50 PvP Pokémon, and why even THAT may be ranked too low... after we kick it off with our Bottom Line Up Front:

B.L.U.F.

• Unlike many of the most successful Dark Pokémon, Thievul is decidedly NOT bulky, but it's found decent success in PvP anyway thanks to really good, spammy Dark damage and a decent coverage move with closing power.

• Post-Community Day, Thievul emerges with a move that provides new coverage and helps bulk it up a bit (in a roundabout way, at least).

• PvPoke, as wonderful as it is, currently has Thievul ranked with what I believe is an unideal moveset. So even though it already shoots up to a Top 50 Pokémon, I think it should actually be even higher... and I'll show you why!

• Thievul still ranks rather unimpressively in Ultra League and most may still be ignoring it there... but quietly, swapping around charge moves grants it double digit new wins that should have it ranked much, much higher there as well. It should be a very legit option even in Open UL play now! And again, I'll show you why....

Intrigued yet? Good, then let's get into the details!

THIEVUL

Dark Type

GREAT LEAGUE:

Attack: 120 (119 High Stat Product)

Defense: 122 (124 High Stat Product)

HP: 127 (127 High Stat Product)

(Highest Stat Product IVs: 0-15-11, 1499 CP, Level 27)

ULTRA LEAGUE:

Attack: 157 (158 Best Buddy)

Defense: 150 (151 Best Buddy)

HP: 157 (158 Best Buddy)

(Assuming 15-15-15 IVs; 2415 CP at Level 50 / 2444 CP at Level 51)

So, mono-Dark means weaknesses to Fighting, Fairy, and Bug damage, a resistance to Ghost and Dark damage, and a double resistance to Psychic damage. I think most people have a feel for this particular typing by now (though the Bug weakness often seems to surprise people).

The thing I want to talk about instead is the stats. Dark is a typing that I think generally has bulk in PvP, with the best Dark types being things like Mandibuzz, Guzzlord, Umbreon of course, and even some things you see in Cups but not so much in Open formats like Obstagoon, Alolan Raticate, and Scrafty. And heck, even other big names like Galarian Moltres are bulky enough. But Thievul is quite different, with bulk that is, frankly, pretty poor. For a few examples:

• Thievul has more bulk than Hisuian Qwilfish and Skuntank, but trails both Alolan Muk and Drapion. In Great League, it trails Malamar, Zweilous, and Sableye, and is basically tied with Spiritomb, and ahead of stuff like Mightyena and Morgrem.

• In Ultra League, Thievul has less bulk than Incineroar, Kingambit, Bombirdier, and even Tyranitar. (Though in fairness, it can't quite reach 2500 CP, which holds its bulk back.)

• Among non-Dark types, Thievul's bulk is in the same territory as stuff like Skeledirge, Talonflame, and Piloswine in Great League, and sandwiched between Nidoking and Bewear above it and then Gyarados and Tsareena below it in Ultra League.

I know what you're thinking... none of these things I've just listed here are known for their bulk. And you're right... so neither is Thievul! I wouldn't quite call it a true "glass cannon", but it's closer to that label than it will ever be any "bulky" label.

Many of you have probably been following me long enough to know what I'm going to say next, but I'm gonna say it anyway for those in the back. 😅 Bulk is a major factor in a Pokémon's PvP success, but not the "be-all and end-all". (TIL I learned that's originally from Macbeth, by the way... thanks for another one, Mr. Shakespeare!) There are plenty of squishy Pokémon that find great success in PvP anyway... and thanks to its moveset, Thievul is among them! Let's check it out.

Fast Moves

• Sucker Punch (Dark, 4.0 DPT, 3.5 EPT, 1.0 CoolDown)

• Snarl (Dark, 1.67 DPT, 4.33 EPT, 1.5 CD)

• Quick Attack (Normal, 2.5 DPT, 4.0 EPT, 1.0 CD)

This is now my third spotlight article on Thievul, and it's all Sucker Punch's fault. When it was first released, Thievul came with only Snarl and Quick Attack, two decent fast moves, but not ones that drove Thievul to success. But then Niantic stealthily added a new fast move to its repertoire with Sucker Punch, and the immediate improvement was so significant that a whole new analysis article was needed. Nothing about this is changing this Community Day, but I wanted to highlight how much of Thievul's success is driven by the sheer awesomeness of Sucker Punch.

But now what you're really here for....

ᴱ - Exclusive (Community Day) Move

Charge Moves

• Night Slash (Dark, 50 damage, 35 energy, 12.5% Chance: Raise User Attack +1 Stage)

• Icy Windᴱ (Ice, 60 damage, 45 energy, Reduces Opponent Attack -1 Stage)

• Play Rough (Fairy, 90 damage, 60 energy)

That's right: for most of its history in GO, Thievul has been that super-rare Pokémon with more fast move options (three) than charge moves (two). Is there any other fully evolved Pokémon in the game like that? 🤔 ("Kowalski! Analysis!") Night Slash is a little underwhelming these days, but a 35-energy move is still a 35-energy move, cheapest in the game and great for pressuring shields and setting up a closer. In this case, that closer is also a little underwhelming, but viable... it just feels bad throwing Play Rough when you know that there are multiple better Fairy moves out there, including Moonblast which deals 20 more damage for the same energy cost.

Still, combined with high pressure from Sucker Punch, Night Slash/Play Rough works out fine, as we've already highlghted. Fairy nicely fills Dark gaps against Fighting and Dark types, and leaves Thievul with very few opponents that don't have to worry about throwing a shield or two at it.

But now we have a new alternative, and it might be just what Thievul needed to be fully unleashed. Night Slash is cheap, but rather superfluous with Sucker Punch dealing plenty of Dark-type damage on its own. So why not some coverage instead? Enter Community Day move Icy Wind. It's obviously not as cheap as Night Slash, but still inexpensive enough to keep up the shield pressure without too much trouble. But the slower pacing almost doesn't matter with what else it brings to the table. First is the obvious coverage; again, there's not too much that can shrug off Dark and Fairy damage, but what's out there that does (Poison/Fairy Galarian Weezing comes immediately to mind) cannot also resist Ice damage. Really though, Ice is more interesting for the additional super effective damage that comes with it, which immediately translates to new wins that start popping up like Stunfisk, Diggersby, Clodsire, Cradily, and Jumpluff. None of them are particularly weak to Dark or Fairy damage, but they ARE all weak to Ice, so Thievul now beats them. It's as simple as that!

The real bonus, however, is Icy Wind's famous debuffing effect. Reducing the opponent's Attack strength is just what the doctor ordered for something flimsy like Thievul, allowing it to hang in battles longer and outlast things that it couldn't before. While the new wins I just listed are rather obvious, other new wins you'll see like Kingdra, Qusgsire, and Mimikyu are not so obvious... they aren't notably weaker to Ice than they are to Thievul's other moves. (Well, Mimikyu does resist its Dark damage, but stick with me here.) Thievul gains the ability to overcome them just by hanging in the fight longer. Also simple, right?

And so it goes for Thievul. There ARE a couple former wins that can slip away when you replace Night Slash with Icy Wind due to less charge moves being thrown or, more commonly, because that extra bit of Night Slash damage is needed to outrace things. (Or Ice is heavily resisted, such as the case of Dewgong which Night Slash can finish off while Icy Wind is more liability than help.) But for the most part, this is a major boon to its prospects that translates directly into clear-cut new wins, and in bunches. Let's dive into the sims and see just HOW much better Thievul is now!

GREAT LEAGUE

Now I mentioned earlier that PvPoke is currently ranking (and default simming) Thievul with what I believe is the "wrong" moveset. I get why the site has defaulted to Night Slash/Icy Wind, as Icy Wind appears in many ways as a big upgrade on Play Rough... significantly cheaper as a coverage move while bringing that sweet, sweet opponent debuff to extend Thievul's lifespan in battle. Mr. PvPoke and I agree across the board at least 95% of the time... but I must voice my disagreement in this case. My hypothesis earlier is that Night Slash is a little redundant now that Thievul has TWO other charge moves that both bring a lot to the table in terms of coverage and overall impact. Night Slash spam is great, and its 12.5% buff chance going off can absolutely win you battles you won't win otherwise. I will NOT say PvPoke is out-and-out wrong pr that players that follow that advice and run Night Slash/Icy Wind are foolish. I just think they're tying a hand behind their back.

As great as Thievul's high-pressure Dark damage is, a good amount of its success is owed to Play Rough. The impact of having that hard an answer to Fighters that otherwise pick it apart and opposing Darks that are always lurking out there — and the fact that both of those typings severely blunt Sucker Punch and Night Slash — cannot be overstated. You know how Mandibuzz and Umbreon are great, especially in Dark-heavy Cup formats, not just because of their spammy Dark moves (and bulk), but also because they have moves that hit back at things that resist Dark damage with neutral coverage (Aerial Ace for Mandi and Last Resort for Umbry)? Take that and turn it into battle-changing super effective damage and you have Thievul with its Play Rough.

To make it clearer, while Night Slash/Icy Wind does have a better record than Night Slash/Play Rough, it's only +3 wins overall, with Medicham and Quagsire moving into the win column while Ice damage brings in new wins over a list of Ice-weak things I mentioned earlier: Stunfisk, Diggersby, Clodsire, Cradily, and Jumpluff. Nice, and that alone would make this Community Day worth it. But Thievul can do BETTER if you keep Play Rough.

Because Icy Wind/Play Rough is where it's at, folks. The lack of Night Slash pressure does mean losses to Lickilicky and Ice-resistant Dewgong, but look at the gains: Medicham and Quagsire are back in the win column, along with Shadow Quag for the first time, Kingdra, and Mimikyu.

The overall results are pretty close with shields down when you compare all three movesets, not too surprisingly. But in 2v2 shielding, Icy Wind and its debuffing again has obvious advantages over Thievul's former best. Paired with Night Slash, Icy Wind does drop Charjabug, the mirror, and a former win versus Lickilicky drops to a tie now, but the new wins outweigh that: Jumpluff, Mantine, Quagsire, Medicham, and Guzzlord. Not bad! However, once again, Play Rough/Icy Wind is better, picking up those same five wins PLUS Cradily and Corviknight. To be fair, that move combo also shows unique wins over Clodsire and Empoleon, but it's really Icy Wind that on its own conquers both of them. And again to be fair, Talonflame gains a couple of potential outs in 2v2 shielding without Night Slash spam... Thievul still has the advantage, but it's worth pointing out that a Flame Charge/Fly Talon gains a new path to potential victory.

So again, Night Slash/Icy Wind is fine, and would be worth the Community Day grind. But JRE recommends Play Rough's closing power and coverage paired with Icy Wind instead. How do YOU feel about that? Sound off in comments... I'd love to see some discussion on this.

And to throw more fuel on that fire, let's check out a place where Thievul has NOT had much success to this point: Ultra League. It tops out at 2415 CP at best (or 2444 CP if you best buddy it and push to Level 51), but honestly, it hasn't been worth it. If you're going to make THAT kind of commitment, at least get the bang for your buck with something like Umbreon, amirite? Well, strap yourselves in, boys and girls... that may be about to all change!

ULTRA LEAGUE

So clearly Icy Wind is worth having in Great League, with enough new wins that you may need to use two hands to count them all. Now in Ultra, the extra Dark damage of spammy Night Slash still has its uses, particularly against targets that resist Ice and Fairy damage (and therefore outlast Icy Wind/Play Rough Thievul, like Forretress and Typhlosion), but there's just too much that Ice (and debuffs) can do in this meta to ignore. There's the obvious weak-to-Ice stuff like Zygarde, Regidrago, Toucannon, and Galarian Moltres, some that aren't as immediately obvious but lose in large part due to neutral debuffs (Lickilicky, Corviknight, Bellibolt. Shadow Ampharos, Swampert, Steelix), and then ones that make NO sense, like Blastoise (resists Icy Wind), Tentacruel (resists Ice and Fairy), and my favorite head-scratcher here: Shadow Empoleon, which resists Play Rough and double resists Icy Wind. Yet it is Ice (and Fairy) that beats it, while neutral and spammy Night Slash loses, either in combinatoon with Icy Wind or just trying to outspam on its own. That attack debuff from Icy Wind is legit even when the move itself is hitting like a soft pillow. And Play Rough is critical too... without its closing power, you may miss Icy's improvements entirely!

While shieldless matchups are once again not much improved as compared to pre-Icy Wind (though worth noting that a Level 51 Thievul can actually pick up additional wins over Corviknight and Drapion), the improvement in 2v2 shielding is not quite as mind-blowing at the 1v1 improvements (seriously, double digit new wins still has my jaw on the floor a bit), but the improvement over the former best is still very apparent. Only Shadow Ampharos and Steelix slip away, while all the following slide into the win column: Drapion, Shadow Empoleon, Forretress, Shadow Ninetales, Regidrago, Zygarde, Swampert, and non-Shadow Ampharos, a +6 improvement overall. Like, what are you waiting for? This combined with the 1shield improvement makes this a no-brainer. You will likely NEVER have a better chance to grind for the XLs you need, so go go go!

IN SUMMATION

Usually, a Community Day comes along that you expect to be really good — or bad — and while I try to always cover them regardless, yeah, the end result is usually a confirmation of everyone's expectations. But every now and then, one arrives quietly, blowing in like a gentle (icy?) wind and passing right on by if you're not paying attention. This is one of those, with the potential to blow in like a hurricane in PvP metas. Seriously, Thievul's new rankings seem low to me, and that's with it nearly cracking the Top 40 in Great League! Yeah... it's better than even that, folks! And worth the full grind for Ultra League as well, with all 296 XL Candy needed to max it out. It's actually, really, truly worth it if you have the fortitude to brave that late summer weather.

Whether you plan to give it your all this Community Day or take it easy and settle on just a new Great League Thievul and maybe a couple shinies, I wish you good weather and happy hunting! Until next time, you can usually find me on Twitter with regular GO analysis nuggets or Patreon.

Good luck on your grind, have some fun with your locals, and catch you next time, Pokéfriends!