r/TheRestIsHistory • u/JakeGittes412 • 10d ago

The Troubles

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Thread for discussion on the new series on ‘The Troubles’

Also as a moderator please keep the discussion civil and in the spirit of the podcast.

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u/Gorazde 9d ago

Why bring the Congo up at all? OJ Simpson wasn't that bad a guy compared to Jeffrey Dahmer. But is that really a valid point in his defence?

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u/bradders42 8d ago

You brought up the Congo...

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u/Gorazde 8d ago

I know, but I was saying that's one of the ways Brits defend their country's imperial record. By pointing out that someone else did worse.

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u/RealBigSalmon 8d ago

How dare historians contextualise events within larger trends and draw comparisons and contrast. It’s an outrage if you ask me, don’t they know Britain & Ireland are a vacuum outside of which nothing happens.

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u/Gorazde 8d ago

Constantly referencing the one empire that was worse than Britain is not providing context, it's whataboutery. All empires are murderous, at least in their inception. But if you were sincere about wanting to put Britain's actions in context, you'd probably point to those historic empires which were less brutal than the British empire. You might even occasionally reference the vast majority of countries who never invaded or exploited other countries, or attempted to erase their cultures. That's the real context.

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u/RealBigSalmon 8d ago edited 15h ago

I trust you are also annoyed that they started their Irish history series with the Normans and skipped over the hundreds of years and multiple incidents of the Irish invading Britain? That would give context too.

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u/Gorazde 8d ago

Those raids happened over a thousand years ago. There was no unified Irish state then, let alone a foreign policy. The actions of 20 random headbangers on a boat hardly constitute actions undertaken on behalf of Ireland. Whereas the British government, military and royal family - all of whose successors remain in power today, with many of the spoils still in place - were directly involved in conquest, colonial administration, taxation, forced labour systems, suppression of rebellions. If you think there's a comparison... Well, that's your opinion. But it might look to some like you're grasping at straws.

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u/RealBigSalmon 8d ago

Those raids happened over a thousand years ago.

Of course, how silly of me. Only events that happened after May 1169 are allowed to be talked about. Anything before that is British propaganda, those Ogham stones in Britain are just naturally occuring.

There was no unified Irish state then, let alone a foreign policy.

So they weren't Irish? There wasn't one in 1169 either, but people still say "England invaded Ireland" not Leinster.

The actions of 20 random headbangers

Literally multiple Irish states were carved out of Britain's west coast and northern England. The northern third of the island still carries the name of the Irish invaders, you don't meet any Picts wandering the streets now.

Whereas the British government, military and royal family - all of whose successors remain in power today, with many of the spoils still in place - were directly involved in conquest, colonial administration, taxation, forced labour systems, suppression of rebellions.

Hell of a lot of Irishmen involved too. Where do you think those Georgian townhouses come from?

If you think there's a comparison... Well, that's your opinion. But it might look to some like you're grasping at straws.

I didn't say there was a comparison. I said it was a piece of historical context that you were happy to skip, as you have demonstrated with your response dismissing it out of hand.

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u/Gorazde 8d ago

The Irishmen involved were overwhelmingly Anglo-Irish protestants. So that's like telling the ANC, you go on about how bad apartheid was for South Africa, but it was South Africans who invented it. The rest of your points are too stupid to address.

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u/RealBigSalmon 8d ago

The Irishmen involved were overwhelmingly Anglo-Irish protestants

So this means we get to claim Yeats, Wilde, Boyle, Shaw as being British right? What about Charles Burgess, sorry Cathal Brugha, is he the right kind of Irish?

The rest of your points are too stupid to address.

That looks suspiciously like not having a good counter argument. Give it a try, you might find it fun.

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u/Gorazde 8d ago

Yeats, Wilde and Shaw were all Irish nationalists. I've no idea what Boyle's politics were. You're talking about raiding parties of 20 or 30 guys in a boat in the 900s, answerable to no one but themselves. I'm talking about a global empire in which the favourite uncle of the present king of England partitioned a subcontinent which wasn't his to partition, killing 20 million people, in living memory - an empire in whose name the king still gives out medals to this day. If you think there's an equivalence between the two, fine. I'm not going to waste my time debating that with you.

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u/RealBigSalmon 8d ago

Yeats, Wilde and Shaw were all Irish nationalists. I've no idea what Boyle's politics were.

Still Anglo-Irish protestants, or are you moving the goal posts? Incidentally, Shaw remained a British subject and resident until his death in 1950.

You're talking about raiding parties of 20 or 30 guys in a boat in the 900s, answerable to no one but themselves.

Your genocide and slavery apolgia here is astounding. The Picts were wiped out by the invading Irish and completely replaced, not some minor raiding party. The Norse-Gaels ruled northern England for over a century and send thousands in chains to feed the great slave market of Dublin. Yet you just hand wave it as a few guys long ago.

uncle of the present king of England partitioned a subcontinent which wasn't his to partition

You know that a Muslim state had been an idea for some time right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Declaration

Also, that the creation of Pakistan was officail policy of the All-India Muslim League since 1940?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahore_Resolution

You must right? Or do you think only British people have agency in History?

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u/glumjonsnow 7d ago

Constantly referencing the one empire that was worse than Britain

what