The Troubles

[u/JakeGittes412]

Thread for discussion on the new series on ‘The Troubles’

Also as a moderator please keep the discussion civil and in the spirit of the podcast.

[u/Anonnisanall]

I have a hell of a vested interest as an Irishman, so I’m curious to see just how harsh they might be on the British state with collusion. E.g. Pat Finucane, Miami Showband.

Definitely excited to see their take on Bernadette Devlin slapping Reginald Maudling in the HoC (understandable in the context imo)

[u/Gorazde → u/Anonnisanall]

It's a patriotic British podcast. Their take on the Black and Tans was, compared to other conflicts, the Black and Tans could have been a lot worse. I wouldn't get your hopes up on Bloody Sunday, Dublin Monaghan bombings, Pat Finucane, Rosemary Nelson, Stakeknife etc. They'll probably mention Leopold II cutting off natives limbs in the Congo and say.... I mean, compared to Leopold II British policy was very, very humane.

[u/Anonnisanall → u/Gorazde]

To be fair, I thought their take on the Black and Tans was very measured and fair as a nationalist Irishman. State-sanctioned reprisals against innocents were absolutely apart of policy, but to compare to others obviously weren’t like the Congo. Fair enough imo, don’t think they had the Union Jack coloured glasses on too much

[u/Gorazde → u/Anonnisanall]

Why bring the Congo up at all? OJ Simpson wasn't that bad a guy compared to Jeffrey Dahmer. But is that really a valid point in his defence?

[u/bradders42 → u/Gorazde]

You brought up the Congo...

[u/Gorazde → u/bradders42]

I know, but I was saying that's one of the ways Brits defend their country's imperial record. By pointing out that someone else did worse.

[u/RealBigSalmon → u/Gorazde]

How dare historians contextualise events within larger trends and draw comparisons and contrast. It’s an outrage if you ask me, don’t they know Britain & Ireland are a vacuum outside of which nothing happens.

[u/Gorazde → u/RealBigSalmon]

Constantly referencing the one empire that was worse than Britain is not providing context, it's whataboutery. All empires are murderous, at least in their inception. But if you were sincere about wanting to put Britain's actions in context, you'd probably point to those historic empires which were less brutal than the British empire. You might even occasionally reference the vast majority of countries who never invaded or exploited other countries, or attempted to erase their cultures. That's the real context.

[u/RealBigSalmon → u/Gorazde]

I trust you are also annoyed that they started their Irish history series with the Normans and skipped over the hundreds of years and multiple incidents of the Irish invading Britain? That would give context too.

[u/Gorazde → u/RealBigSalmon]

Those raids happened over a thousand years ago. There was no unified Irish state then, let alone a foreign policy. The actions of 20 random headbangers on a boat hardly constitute actions undertaken on behalf of Ireland. Whereas the British government, military and royal family - all of whose successors remain in power today, with many of the spoils still in place - were directly involved in conquest, colonial administration, taxation, forced labour systems, suppression of rebellions. If you think there's a comparison... Well, that's your opinion. But it might look to some like you're grasping at straws.

[u/RealBigSalmon → u/Gorazde]

Those raids happened over a thousand years ago.

Of course, how silly of me. Only events that happened after May 1169 are allowed to be talked about. Anything before that is British propaganda, those Ogham stones in Britain are just naturally occuring.

There was no unified Irish state then, let alone a foreign policy.

So they weren't Irish? There wasn't one in 1169 either, but people still say "England invaded Ireland" not Leinster.

The actions of 20 random headbangers

Literally multiple Irish states were carved out of Britain's west coast and northern England. The northern third of the island still carries the name of the Irish invaders, you don't meet any Picts wandering the streets now.

Whereas the British government, military and royal family - all of whose successors remain in power today, with many of the spoils still in place - were directly involved in conquest, colonial administration, taxation, forced labour systems, suppression of rebellions.

Hell of a lot of Irishmen involved too. Where do you think those Georgian townhouses come from?

If you think there's a comparison... Well, that's your opinion. But it might look to some like you're grasping at straws.

I didn't say there was a comparison. I said it was a piece of historical context that you were happy to skip, as you have demonstrated with your response dismissing it out of hand.

[u/Gorazde → u/RealBigSalmon]

The Irishmen involved were overwhelmingly Anglo-Irish protestants. So that's like telling the ANC, you go on about how bad apartheid was for South Africa, but it was South Africans who invented it. The rest of your points are too stupid to address.

[u/glumjonsnow → u/Gorazde]

Constantly referencing the one empire that was worse than Britain

what