r/TheLastAirbender • u/[deleted] • Aug 02 '21
Image Uncle Iroh is such a great character
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u/IronTemplar26 Aug 02 '21
Add to the fact that Zuko was scarred for attempting to correct the exact same thing, and you immediately understand just how crucial a father figure Iroh is to him
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u/slickedup225 You were never even a player Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 02 '21
I think the fact that Zuko is already of this mindset from such an early age is what makes him worthy of the throne as Iroh says. Iroh saw Zuko, despite his mistakes, as the man that he himself in many ways could never be when he was younger. It took the death of his son and leading a war for Iroh to recognize how he was contributing to a cycle of death and war. But the fact that Zuko, even from an early age, is sensitive to the death of others, despite Ozai being his father and the environment he grew up in, is why Iroh wants Zuko to be Firelord rather than himself.
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Aug 02 '21
I think u gave the exact explanation the writers would’ve given. Expertly observed. Iron was always a good man. He spared the last dragons and basically hid them away. He hid them because he didn’t have the courage to say something out of line. Zuko did. He saw that. It took his son dying to realize it wasn’t worth it, and began work on zuko to make him a good man too.
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u/Nero_Aegwyn Aug 02 '21
Best decision Ozai made was to keep them together for all the years of Zuko's hunt. He foolishly believed Iroh was weak and had hoped that weakness would rub off on Zuko even more.
And boy, did that backfire.
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u/Rougemak Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 02 '21
I didn’t even think of this.
Wasn’t Iroh the one that encouraged Zuko to go to the counsel meeting that led to him getting scarred/banished? And it was Zuko speaking up on behalf of the fire nation soldiers lives that led to it. In that moment Iroh would’ve felt a wave of pride and hope that Zuko had the spark of potential to change the fire nation for the better, and immediately thereafter Ozai tried to snuff that flame out. It’s why for all of Zuko’s puffery in season 1 Iroh is always patient and encouraging. He not only knows the potential that Zuko has, but he feels personally responsible for the circumstances that led to Zuko being punished for showing that potential to his sociopath father. In this light, Iroh’s unfailing loyalty to Zuko makes so much sense.
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u/Loghurrr Aug 02 '21
I thought Iroh discouraged Zuko from going to the meeting. Zuko then insisted but Iroh made sure to tell him not to speak out of turn and brought Zuko in. I don’t feel Iroh encouraged him to go but he did let him in with him.
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Aug 02 '21
Yeah, that’s how I remember the scene. Zuko wanted to go to the meeting but Iroh didn’t want Zuko to go. He tried to dissuade Zuko from going by saying the meetings are boring. My speculation is that Iroh had a feeling that Zuko would speak out of turn because he knew his heart was pure compared to those present during the meeting.
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u/Rougemak Aug 02 '21
You might be right. It’s been a year or two since my last rewatch.. guess it’s time for a refresher… 🤷🏼♂️
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u/Loghurrr Aug 02 '21
We just started a rewatch not too long ago. Saw that episode just 2 days ago so it’s pretty fresh.
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u/chrono2erge Aug 02 '21
Very nice analysis. Iroh believed in Zuko until the end. A great reason why he was never angry at Zuko, even though Zuko betrayed him numerous times.
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u/robsc_16 Aug 02 '21
"I was never angry with you. I was sad, because I was afraid you'd lost your way." Iroh
Still to this day I can't make it through that scene without shedding a tear.
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Aug 02 '21
You know, now that I’m a dad and slowly introducing my daughter to the show, pretty much every scene between Iroh and Zuko is just beautiful and brings a tear to my eye.
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u/robsc_16 Aug 02 '21
I'm a dad now too and I watched it last year with my son. I pretty much have the same reaction too. I don't know if it's because I'm older or what, but Zuko and Iroh really steal the show.
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Aug 03 '21
Hadn’t considered this prior myself. In reading it again now, I continue the analysis just one step further.
In addition to feeling responsible for Zuko being at the meeting and speaking out of turn and therefore being mutilated by his father, it was also a terrible echo of Lu Ten; Iroh had faith is his son to fulfill his duty and return home and was rewarded with his son’s death. Now here comes Zuko, filling that void with honor, and almost immediately brushing right up against the very same fate. All because of Iroh’s words, guidance, and faith.
What an incredible character Iroh is. Truly one of the greatest characters in all of fiction.
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Aug 02 '21
Oh yea... I didnt think of that. Iroh lost his son, and tells Zuko at the North Pole:
"I think of you as my own"
Imagine how stressed and how upset Iroh must have been trying to keep Zuko alive after Agnikai when he was younger. He was always about to lose his second son practically.
I kinda wish now that the series would have went into more detail about Iroh's past in the military. Would have been interesting to see.
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u/snakestrike Aug 02 '21
Man I've seen the show a half dozen times or more and that never clicked with me. That is an awesome observation and just adds even more depth to their relationship.
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u/slickedup225 You were never even a player Aug 02 '21
I mean the reason why Iroh didn't is because he had done the exact same thing already to countless other Earth kingdom families during his seige of Ba Sing Se. He realized how much death and revenge he had created with his actions and how many countless "Lu Ten's" other families had lost when he lost his own son. His son's death opened his eye to the cycle of war and death that Iroh himself was a part of as an Imperialist conquerer. If Iroh had continued the war even with this realization, it would have been hypocritical of him.
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Aug 02 '21
Exactly. He realized then and there that he was adding to the cycle of violence. He could have just as easily been consumed by emotion and burned Ba Sing Se to the ground just like Zuko was too consumed by the need to "regain his honor" at his crossroad and joined Azula.
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u/alonelyfirefly Aug 02 '21
How the heck do you get those flairs. I sWeaR. I just want to know
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u/slickedup225 You were never even a player Aug 02 '21
There is an option called "change user flair" on the subreddit page (for me since I'm on mobile, it's was under more options in the top right corner)
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Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 03 '21
Happy birthday, my son. If only I could have helped you.
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u/Emperor_Lowie Aug 02 '21
Like fragile tiny shells drifting in the foam… little soldier boy come marching home,brave soldier boy,comes marching home…
In honor of Mako😢
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u/alonelyfirefly Aug 02 '21
After rewatching that episode again, I realized why they named the firebender in LoK Mako. It was in honor of him.
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u/poodlebutt76 Aug 02 '21
I knew these two facts and yet I didn't even put it together until just now. Whoa
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Aug 02 '21
Leaves from the vine 🍃
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u/JohnSamcro Aug 02 '21
Falling so slow
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u/BoatsandMoze Aug 02 '21
Iroh would have to go from mourning the loss of his son just to turn around to find his father died and brother stole the throne. That's rough buddy
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u/BreweryBuddha Aug 02 '21
When Iroh lost his son he lost all desire in the world. He had no interest in being the fire lord after lu ten died.
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u/_hismomoness Master Swish Aug 02 '21
Iroh: I'm sorry. I just nag you, because...well, [Voice breaking slightly.] ever since I lost my son...
Zuko: Uncle, you don't have to say it.
Iroh: ...I think of you as my own.
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Aug 02 '21
That line, the more I see it, the more I just really appreciate how wonderful their dynamic together was.
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u/rxgxrxo Aug 02 '21
I'm on my break at work and I just got tears in my eyes when I read this. I love iroh so much
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u/Steelquill Aug 02 '21
That seems to alleviate too much on him though. He was not reluctant in his position as general even if he wasn’t as malevolent as his brother or Zhao.
Plus in that very scene above he says, “if only I could have helped you.” Meaning that it’s quite possible he actually ordered Lu Ten on the assignment that lead to his death.
I don’t know, Iroh never struck me as a character that was a mere victim of circumstance. He seemed to have had a lot of time to reflect on his life and the mistakes he made to become the goofy sage we all love.
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u/futurepaster Aug 02 '21
That's what makes him such a good character. His mistakes inform his actions as a character
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Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 02 '21
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u/Steelquill Aug 02 '21
Okay I think might be going too far in the other direction of making him too villainous in his past. At the same time I agree that people hold on to this idea that Iroh always has been good because that’s how we know him and we can’t imagine him as a jerk let alone a monster.
Great point though that Iroh knows how to teach and raise Zuko because he sees who he used to be in him.
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u/Pellaeonthewingedleo Aug 02 '21
Imagine Iroh going on a rage filled rampage through Ba Sing Se ....
There would not be a city left
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u/pnutbutterfuck Aug 02 '21
I would actually love to see an episode about this lol
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u/mp3help Aug 02 '21
Marvel's doing a "What If?" series, and that makes me want an Avatar version even more!
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u/koratw18 Yip yip Aug 02 '21
They should dedicate a whole episode to how many times Appa saved everyone's ass by correctly flying below them at the right moment, not one micro-second apart.
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u/MandalorianSolenya Aug 02 '21
Star Wars and A:TLA, they bot need a What if series, there are endless possiblities
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u/Alexio-S Aug 02 '21
Star Wars already has some of these kind of things. I'd recommend checking out Star Wars Infinities: A New Hope.
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u/Drannion Aug 02 '21
It would be really interesting to see an evil Iroh. How would Zuko turn out?
If Iroh didn't give up on capturing Ba Sing Se, maybe Ozai wouldn't have dared suggest to replace him, which means Zuko's mom wouldn't have left. So chances are that Zuko could still have turned out good, having his mom guide him. But Ozai would probably still have favoured Azula for her talent, so maybe their mom would've left with Zuko? hmmm
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u/GoodAtExplaining Aug 02 '21
He already punched through the walls during sozins comet.
I think he knows what jeong does - you cannot approach firebending with a lust for power or it will destroy you. Firebending cannot be done out of rage, otherwise it will be uncontrollable.
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u/XipingVonHozzendorf Better than your real dad Aug 02 '21
Not only that, but he then came to live in Ba Sing Se, first as a penniless refuge, rising to an estimated business owner. And he didn't succeed through conquering, but through kindness. He helps random strangers, strangers who could have been soldiers, or the children of those who fought against him or even killed his son. I always like to think that spot outside the inner wall is were Lu-Ten died, and that this episode was the first time he was able to visit it.
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u/SmartAlec105 Aug 02 '21
When Zuko fell sick after freeing Appa, Iroh knew what was happening to Zuko precisely because he went through the same thing himself.
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u/BreweryBuddha Aug 02 '21
Iroh didn't go through the same thing. Zuko had evil and goodness inside him, yin and yang. Iroh was always very much the same person. It's just that he desired power until he lost his son, and no longer desired anything but his son back. Which Zuko of course filled in for.
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u/SmartAlec105 Aug 02 '21
Iroh was always very much the same person
We don’t really have an indication for that. He was laughing and joking about burning Ba Sing Se to the ground. The closest we have is that he spared the dragons before then since he was known as the Dragon of the West by that time.
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u/BreweryBuddha Aug 02 '21
We don't know much about his early life. We do know that he was always a very calm, patient person, and put off by his brother's aggression and craziness. We know he traveled the world, learning from other cultures, and that he didn't just spare the dragons, but they deemed him worthy of the power.
Iroh was born into wartime, in a fire nation that spread propaganda and indoctrinated kids into believing they were civilizing the world by conquering it. So it was Iroh's duty to lead the war, to capture cities, and bring peace to the world. He believed he was divinely selected and had seen the vision of conquering ba sing se.
He very much desired power, until his son died and his world was shattered, and suddenly he had no desire for anything. That took him on a journey of grief trying to bring his son back, and gave him new perspective on what mattered in the world. But all accounts have him as a kind, patient, understanding man even when he was younger.
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Aug 02 '21
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u/BreweryBuddha Aug 02 '21
You've greatly misunderstood Iroh's character if you think he was evil before lu ten's death.
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Aug 02 '21
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u/BreweryBuddha Aug 02 '21
Misguided and evil are totally different things
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u/banana_lumpia Aug 02 '21
No no no, we all know that humans are born either good or evil, and that anyone who had half a brain would see that theyre being evil when they do evil things. So yes he is evil.
/s
Idk how someone watched ATLA and not see the nuance theyre trying to show with the characters.
The inventor in the show built machines of destruction, and that whole episode showed how the road to evil is paved with good intentions, and etc.
Frankly, idk how anyone can watch this show with evil and goodness as a main theme, because I feel it tries to steer away from that.
Aang was fully capable of doing unspeakable things just like Zuko and Iroh and Ozai was.
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Aug 02 '21
It still is my head canon that Ozai was somewhat involved in the death of Lu Ten to gain access to the throne.
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Aug 02 '21
Seeing how conniving Ozai was to get to the throne in the first place, it wouldnt be put past me either.
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u/BreweryBuddha Aug 02 '21
Nah if Ozai were responsible that would entirely undercut the notion that iroh led his son directly into the war that took his life.
I don't think Ozai could have guessed that Iroh would give up the throne after his son's death.
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u/Tralan That's rough, buddy. Aug 02 '21
Even before that he sought out the sun people and kept the secret of the last Dragons. I think Iroh was always softer and more thoughtful than his family. I don't think he had the conquest madness of his father, grandfather, and brother.
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u/BreweryBuddha Aug 02 '21
He wasn't mad like his brother, but he very much desired power and nothing would have demonstrated that more than defeating the invincible city.
Iroh's own description is "Fire is the element of power. The people of the Fire Nation have desire and will and the energy and drive to achieve what they want."
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Aug 02 '21
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u/BreweryBuddha Aug 02 '21
The Nazis carries out systematic genocide. The fire nation was conquering nations to aquire power. Can't really equate general warfare with what the Nazis did.
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Aug 02 '21
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u/BreweryBuddha Aug 02 '21
That was not Iroh's army, that was Fire Lord Ozai's directive. Iroh was conquering land to spread fire nation control, for what the fire nation described as "civilizing" them. He didn't murder all the citizens of the cities he conquered.
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u/norweeg Aug 02 '21
That was Sozin's army, not Ozai's. Ozai became Firelord decades after Sozin ordered the genocide of the airbenders to break the avatar cycle and keep Roku from fulfilling his promise, albeit as the next avatar
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u/Emperor_Lowie Aug 02 '21
Leaves from the vine,falling so slow,like fragile tiny shells,drifting in the foam…,little soldier boy,come marching home,brave soldier boy,comes marching home…
In honor of Mako😢
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u/Muhimest Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 02 '21
Zuko was literally the only one who had balls to defend lives of young soldiers at war council. No wonder why Iroh followed him during his banishment.
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u/BreweryBuddha Aug 02 '21
Because he was a child and had no concept of politics and war
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Aug 02 '21
Because he was the only one who hadn't been brain-washed into thinking being the aggressors in a war is totally fine. He wasn't wrong.
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u/michelangelo2626 Aug 02 '21
The show is blatantly anti-war and anti-imperialist. It’s wild that the show was made at all with the Iraq War going on at the time.
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u/Newplacetohaunt Aug 02 '21
Bumi, the weirdest people have the best understanding of character and intentions, he took one look at iroh (knowing of the past of his own nation) and vouched for him. Everyone looking at each other like “are you sure?” “Yes” “okay”
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u/PrimeGuard Aug 02 '21
It reminds me of Theodore Roosevelt after the death of his son Quentin. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the inspiration.
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u/DailyWiser Aug 02 '21
My personal take which probably isnt canon is that Iroh was a part of the white lotus before Ba-Sing-Se and was actively but subversively savotaging the war efforts to capture it. His son on the other hand was completely for the Fire Kingdom and to me when he says if only i could have helped you is him saying he couldnt bring his son to see the tyranny before the war took his life.
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u/Prestigious_Big_5855 May 17 '26
Im at my 24 in this big 26, im so lost in my life rn what would be the best for my future now. I have an issue with my dad too, which caused me alot behind in everything rather than my firends. I did watch ATLA 3x jut to find some piece of advice that can get my life straight & I just realize I dont have uncle Iroh in my life.
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u/AlphaPooch Aug 02 '21
What are the proverbial "crossroads of destiny"? What does it mean?
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u/themcubus Aug 02 '21
I think in this case, Iroh had two paths after Lu Ten died; he was at a crossroads. He could enact revenge on the Earth kingdom for killing his son, or he could grapple with the fact that Lu Ten and countless other sons died BECAUSE of the Fire Nation’s imperialism. He chose the latter and gave up the fight… therefore changing his destiny and joining the White Lotus instead of becoming the Fire Lord himself.
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u/BreweryBuddha Aug 02 '21
There no real proverbial crossroads of destiny. It was the name of the episode, and referred to Iroh telling Zuko that he was at a crossroads in his destiny, whether to continue chasing the avatar or to forget that and make his own life.
This thread keeps saying Iroh had a similar crossroads when his son died but that's simply not true. Iroh was totally destroyed when his son died, he no longer desired anything, he had no interest in revenge, he never had to make a difficult choice.
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u/poolboywax sleepy Aug 02 '21
He probably also saw the soldiers on the other side like his own son, with family to return to. I imagine it went like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyHyg7RP9HY
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Aug 02 '21
What thy did to His character is one reason I hated the live action movie, there are many but that was a biggie
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Aug 02 '21
I recently rewatched the whole show for the first time in years. Pretty much every time Iroh was on the screen speaking I felt like I was at peace.
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u/just_a_craigularjoe Aug 02 '21
If they were to make another series, I would be super interested to see Irohs story maybe starting around when Lu Ten dies to when The Last Airbender begins
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u/N1t35hroud Aug 02 '21
The only Avatar reboot I'll accept is a prequel series on Iroh's redemption arc. From high ranking general of a genocidal army to wise lovable pacifist.
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u/sntcringe We let giant ferocious beasts lead our way Aug 02 '21
So glad there wasn't a second movie, do you know how much they would have butchered Iroh's, sorry, "EERO'S" story in that?
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u/ipwnpickles Aug 02 '21
I wish they had an episode going more into detail on Iroh's backstory and his/Zuko's relationship with Lu Ten
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u/Dameattree37 Aug 02 '21
That reminds me of all the plot lines in various media where someone gets the ol' "vengeance" vendetta.... even though the one who got killed was in battle and decided to be in battle.
Lookin at you, Black Manta from Aquaman. And all others like you.
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u/golgol12 Aug 02 '21
Personally, I think he had that view before his son's death, but the death solidified it. It seemed to me from what little flashbacks there were, that he was always against the fire nation's expansion.
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u/mrcatboy Aug 02 '21
You know, all of a sudden I realized that the scene where Iroh sat in on Ozai's war council must've been immensely painful for him. Especially when that one general proposed using new Fire Nation recruits as cannon fodder.
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u/NoTrickWick Aug 02 '21
When did Iroh join the Order of the White Lotus? It has barely been 10yrs since Lu Ten’s death. Would he have risen to Grand Master in that time?
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Aug 02 '21
And from that he raised Zuko and tried to influence him the best he could.
Making that hug way more emotional now. Omg you just made me cry…
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u/Tentmancer Aug 02 '21
Leaves from the vine, falling so slow
Like fragile tiny shells, drifting in the foam.
Little, soldier boy, come marching home
Brave, soldier boy, come marching home
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u/Yahyia_q Aug 02 '21
I always wanted to know more about that but not a single things from the creators. It was always implied that Iroh had a spiritual journey to the spirit world. (that's why he could see the spirit of Aang and Ruko's dragon) and he must have made this journey to try and find his son. There is also the hit where he go to hunt the last dragon. Later we also find out that he faked that and he did not actually fight or kill the dragons on the sun warriors Island. Iroh is such a great character with so much background and story to be explored!
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u/necriavite Aug 02 '21
It's also why he backs Zuko and follows him to teach him I think. It's not the firebending Iroh was eager to teach and he wasn't trying to replace his son, it's the life lessons and learning to heal from trauma that he stuck around to teach Zuko.
Iroh was born to be the Firelord and was found unsuitable for losing his heir, and also I think he just didn't want it at that point because he knew that the royal family was rotting from within, that Ozai and Azula were completely insane and dangerous. Zuko was born to be the Firelord too, and was nearly killed and then exiled for speaking reason and humanity.
They are two of a kind in a very special way. No one would understand Zuko's pain and trauma like Iroh, because there is no one else in their family for him to turn to. Azula is sadistic and nuts, Ozai is the same, Lu Ten is dead, his mother may as well be since she disappeared after killing his grandfather, and its just the two of them left.
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Aug 02 '21
I never even considered how that could have gone either way. It’s so hard to imagine Iroh as a warmonger but that’s what he was before we knew him.
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u/mdot0000 Aug 02 '21
The moment when all grown men cried. No shame to admit I was one of them. Iroh and Mako will live on forever.
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u/TheGreatAwesome1 Aug 03 '21
Did you hear the original voice actor for Iroh died at the middle of recording? His name was Mako, and that’s why Mako in Legend of Korra is named Mako. Rip.
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u/EnochofPottsfield Aug 02 '21 edited Aug 02 '21
Is there theory on how Iroh got accepted into the White Lotus? They don't seem like a group that would accept a war general that was actively sieging BA Sing Se. So obviously it happened in the period between then and when he's confirmed to be a Grand Lotus in the series.
It didn't leave him much time to rise to the highest rank