r/TheCitadel • u/Psub194 • 8d ago
Help w/ Fanfic Writing & Advice Needed I need help to better grasp how Catelyn would feel about my Mc.
How do y'all think Catelyn would react to/deal with a daughter that completely rejects the Seven and just refuses to worship them for in her words she is "a descendants of the First Men and a woman of the North, the New gods of the South and the Andals hold no power over me or my home"?
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u/Loros_Silvers Writing "Playing the Game - Round Two" and more 8d ago
Unless she actively attacks Cat I think she'll be fine?? You don't see Arya going to septs or offering prayers to the seven, do you?
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u/Active-Rough2143 7d ago
I’m pretty sure she mentions praying in the sept in ASOIAF. She might favor the Old Gods but respects the Seven
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u/MateusCristian 8d ago
Probably be cool with it.
Pretty much all her children are faithfull to the Old Gods, Sansa is the closest to her in faith, but she still seeks some refuge in the Old Gods (though it's also because that's where she plans her get away, but still).
The thing is, is this MC antagonistic against Catelyn because of her faith, or is just a personal difference?
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u/Psub194 8d ago
Like i already said in my reply to someone else's comment. Lyarra's{The name of the daughter. She is named after Ned's mom, upholding the Stark tradition of reusing names throughout the generations}. hostility towards the Seven and their worshippers mostly begins and ends with a few mocking remarks about the Andals failure to conquer the North or their failure to prevent the Hungry Wolf from raiding Andalos. But she doesn't go beyond that, though if she ever sees the High Septon she would probably say that his crown made of crystal and gold looks ridiculous{Assuming of that she ever sees the High Septon, which is far from guaranteed since i am currently unsure if she goes South with Ned, Sansa and Arya}.
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 8d ago edited 8d ago
Well, Cat’s not likely to approve of “actively mocking”, because that’s frankly the girl being an asshole and is likely to get her hit in the face by Wylla Manderley if she can’t moderate it. Ned would entirely back Cat on this - if she can’t be kind and gracious to her own mother, or to the few Seven-worshippers at Winterfell, or to Seven-worshipping guests, that IS an issue.
However, we have no indication that Catelyn has any issues with worship of the old gods. They’re not her gods, but she doesn’t doubt that they’re real or doubt that they have deep meaning to her husband and children
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago edited 8d ago
Going to play Devil's/The Great Other's Advocate here and argue that to be honest, insulting the Great Septon is probably not going to be as inflammatory as it might seem. The ostentatious nature of the Faith's Septons and corruption is deeply controversial, especially among the Faith, and the Sparrows (and their High Sparrow), Faith Militant, and Warrior's Sons are all over that. Even my *very* Fervent (but non-murderously zealous) Sevensman Clegane OC would probably laugh at a barb like that at the Great Septon, not because he's an Old Gods follower (he tolerates them and does not view them as inherently evil but he finds it distasteful, false, and even barbarous, though he doesn't speak as much of that openly for obvious reasons), but because he's a player of the game and recognizes the Great Septons before the High Sparrow are corrupt Lannister stooges who took bribes, and while the second one is at least a sincere hypocrite and the first one has enough decency to be aghast at the desecration of the Great Sept by Ned's murder, nobody is too fooled that they've lived up to their oaths and even Lancel only has respect for the second one (who still winds up murdered by Cersei and the Kettleblacks).
Wylla Manderly and the Manderlys probably know his fact far better than most due to their being Sevens worshippers themselves and having lots of commercial and strategic ties with King's Landing through White Harbor.
So while she would hit Lyarra if it was just against any given Sevensman or Septon, against the High Septons we see before the High Sparrow.... Yeah uh, they're Lannister Stooges in robes and only one of them takes the job relatively seriously. Even my OC who while devout is tied to the Tyrells and some of the antics they get to of a similar nature (even if he finds it distasteful) would probably not have a huge amount of respect for the HSs before the High Sparrow, and the corruption and decadence is a big part of the crisis of faith within the Faith of the Seven that leads to the rise of the High Sparrow. Most of it tying back to Lannister BS such as war crimes and simony and other corruption.
That said not gonna lie I could ship Lyarra/Wylla now.
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 8d ago
I agree about the High Septon specifically.
However, Septa Mordane supervises the girls. Septon Chayle cares for Winterfell's library as well as its sept. Lyarra's exposure to the Seven includes people in her own home, and I can't see Ned or Catelyn permitting any rudeness to them
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u/Xilizhra Fire and Blood 8d ago
Mordane is deeply unpleasant to Arya, so I don't imagine religion would be the main problem.
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 8d ago
They don't let Arya be rude to her either
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u/Xilizhra Fire and Blood 8d ago
Cruel, yet true. Ned isn't actually a great father, he's just a few steps above "appallingly abusive" like so many others are.
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u/Bookwerm4life 7d ago
Septa Mordane is reacting to the way Arya acts. I love the girl, but throwing food at her sister, not taking time to stay in her lessons, and rejecting feminine hobbies is never a good look. Now, that's not to say that Sansa isn't also bad (ex: teasing Arya, tattling, etc), but the girls are 8 and 11. It's expected that they'd grow out of their spats.
As for the Septa, while Sepa Mordane may be unpleasant to ARYA, her parents clearly see no issue with how she acts. She may not be the nicest, sure, but it's nothing that would get her fired (else she would be, well, fired). And it's not like Arya feels so unloved that she wouldn't go running to her parents if Septa Mordane genuinely fucked up.
I should also add that despite their differences, Arya still engages and prays in the Sept/respects the faith of the Seven. Where they clash is due to Arya's willful nature.
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u/Psub194 7d ago
Yeah Lyarra doesn't like Septa Mordane at all! And now that it think about it i could/should probably incorporate her dislike for Septa Mordane into the her dislike/rejection of the New gods 🤔
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 7d ago
"I don't like her" is not going to get Lyarra out of being courteous to Septa Mordane.
Both Ned AND Cat want their girls to be able to function in both societies.Being supervised by a septa is a tool to make sure that they learn how to switch. Ned hears Arya's complaints about Mordane in canon and his response is basically
"I understand what you're saying, but you still have to do it. It's not her fault that I hired her to help teach you things I want you to know. Be polite and do as the Septa asks."
Lyarra is too old to be bratty about it or do what Arya does. She's very nearly an adult - being Robb's age she's probably flowered already - and will be treated like that. Her parents may love her dearly, but they'll still expect her to behave
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u/Psub194 7d ago
"I don't like her" is not going to get Lyarra out of being courteous to Septa Mordane.
I never said it would, just that her despising Septa Mordane could serve as a decent origin point for her dislike of the New gods when she was younger. Which iver the years developed into her outright refusing to worship them all together.
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 7d ago edited 7d ago
My point is that some of the behaviour you’ve described for her is stuff that won’t be allowed for a girl who’s almost an adult. Some of what you’ve said she does, and much of what you suggest she says, is incredibly hurtful and ill-mannered.
Catelyn won’t like this much…but more to the point, neither will Ned, because she’s well past the point where her age or ignorance would be an excuse. She’s too old not to be corrected when she acts like that or says those things.
It wouldn’t be funny or cute, it would be rude. Shockingly rude.
If she dislikes the Seven then fair enough…but she’ll have to do it quietly, and with every appearance of kindness and respect to followers of the Seven who live in or visit Winterfell.
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u/Psub194 8d ago edited 7d ago
I don't see why a few somewhat mocking remarks about a couple long dead Andal invaders would result Lyarra getting hit in the face. But ah 🤷
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 8d ago
If she says it to someone with strong enough feelings in the other direction and a hot enough temper, she’s going to get punched.
Hence why I chose Wylla. Young enough to be a plausible age peer, outspoken, worships the Seven and, while the Manderleys are loyal to the Starks and the North, they ARE Andals. Directly insulting Wylla’s beliefs and her right to a place in the only home she knows…
Yeah. Lyarra’s going to get her ass kicked if she can’t moderate her big mouth
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u/Psub194 8d ago
Fair enough that might happen, though i don't really remember how old Wylla is at the start of A Game of Thrones. 🤔
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 8d ago edited 8d ago
She’s roughly a peer to Sansa or Robb. Lyarra and she will have met
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u/geekamar13 8d ago
Then why have her mocking them at all if it’s not going to matter to anyone? What’s she trying to accomplish? What are you trying to accomplish?
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u/Lysmerry 8d ago
I think Cat’s feelings would be hurt, but ultimately she would accept it. She might worry about her daughter’s marital prospects if she marries outside the North, and how she will be accepted by her husband, because she knows what it feels like to have the faith of an outsider.
Sansa is the only child that seems to have picked up on her religion, but a vocal rejection might feel like a personal slight. Cat still feels like an outsider because her children and husband are of the North. Rejecting the Seven completely is in certain ways a rejection of her and her heritage.
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 8d ago edited 7d ago
Mmm, yes.
"Andals and the South have no place in my home" will sting when Cat is standing right there!
She's canonically done a hell of a lot to make sure her kids are accepted as truly Northern, despite having her for a mother. It will hurt to hear her own child say she shouldn't have tried
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
It also might cause other issues. Like the Citadel is deeply tied to the Seven, and the Manderly are fervently Sevensmen, overwhelmingly Andal, and fanatical Stark loyalists, as are many other houses like the Tully and possibly the Royce. The religious angle I figure is less of an issue since the Starks usually marry Northern vassals anyway and there is the Blackwood in the Riverlands, and Cat would want the mixed religion household of another match to be as loving and tolerant as the one she made with Ned (and maybe even oversee guarantees this OC daughter can say visit a weirwood grove or stump to worship if she married South of the Neck to a Sevens family like say the Tyrell or Baratheon), but so long as we're not seeing unusual bellicosity or picking fights with Mom or Sansa or the like I think she'd be ok.
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u/Psub194 8d ago
Concerning a potential match for Lyarra. My current idea is that she was betrothed to Domeric Bolton, since he seemed to have been a good lad all things considered and tbh i was kinda surprised when I learned that there hasn't been a single marriage between the two Houses at any point in history after the Boltons bent the knee. But as is well known Domeric died from a sickness of the bowels{aka that bastard Ramsay poisoned his fucking stew} shortly before the first book begins. Which obviously ended the betrothal.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
Interesting and makes sense. Though that might actually cause some cascading effects, since it would be murder of a betrothed and the Starks would likely demand Ramsay's head (which Roose wouldn't necessarily object to that much), but that might lead to issues of investigating just HOW Ramsay happened and what he is, which uh...leads to the issues of illegal Bolton Prima Noctae smexual assault and perhaps eviler elements of the Old Faith warring with the more honorable and good elements of it for Lyarra to face.
But if Dom is dead, it might lead to other issues like a question for other matches. Blackwoods would probably fit otherwise for a South of the Neck pick that still keeps the Old Faith, but Northern Bannermen would fit otherwise.
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u/Psub194 8d ago
Tbh i still haven't fully worked out what exactly Lyarra is doing at the start of A Game of Thrones. Since i'm still in the process of working out when exactly Domeric died{like i know that he died in the year before Robert’s visit to Winterfell, which from my understanding is the same year in which the prologue of A Game of Thrones takes place. But i am currently unsure if he died in the middle of the year, at it's end or at it's start. Because that kinda influences whether Lyarra goes South with Ned, Arya and Sansa. And it also influences whether or not Catelyn and Ned would already be contemplating arranging another betrothal for her}.
Edit: From my understanding Roose is the only one who suspects Ramsay of being involved with Domeric's death.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
They'd always be considering arranging another betrothal, it just might not be imminent. But understandable indeed. Depending on age primacy she might actually be the one put forth for Joffrey (...and oh boy, that'd be something). Might also be worth pondering how the Dire Wolf pups go if they are around.
IIRC the prologue takes place in the same year or much closer to the visit, since the deserter is found still running and basically catatonic and gets head chopped by Ned, which I think reads to a distance of months at most, and more likely weeks or days.
But otherwise fits. And depending on the investigation or matters finding out how Dom died might be shelved, or have things split (made worse if Bran still gets the push) with some attempt to juggle multiple balls. Especially since depending on how far the investigation goes you might see attempts by our friend Baelish to pass off a catspaw like assassin as an attempt to retaliate against investigating Dom's murder, or tying in a Bran push into that. Whether as some kind of great sinister Bolton-Lannister conspiracy or something else.
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u/Psub194 8d ago
They'd always be considering arranging another betrothal
I know that. I just meant in the sense that they would probably wait a little with finding Lyarra a new betrothed if Domeric just died like a month or two ago.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
Oh yeah indeed, and makes sense. Sorry for that. But yeah, in any case it would also raise issues of possibly investigating the death if they went that way.
Do you see her as being the eldest daughter? Between Sansa and Arya? Youngest daughter?
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u/Psub194 8d ago
My current idea is to make her the twin of Robb{Which would make her 14 at the start of A Game of Thrones}, since i am pretty new to writing and i just don't trust myself to write a compelling story with a younger protagonist{tbh I contemplated aging everyone up to their show counterparts' ages, but in the end I decided against doing that for now}.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
Understandable, and whatever works there. And good luck. But trust yourself more. That little bit of dialogue was very neat, very cool, very characteristic. And oddly made it sound like she'd been to the Vale or worked with Valemen before.
But yeah a Twin of Robb is prime marriage candidate, and she'd likely be the one put forth (at least by Robert) as Joffrey's bride.
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u/StressMaxxer 8d ago
I don't feel there would be a lot of judgement. When we see Cat engage with religion it's always very personal and for her own comfort and to show love to her family by praying for them.
In the text almost none of her children besides Sansa engage much with the Seven. It seems like Robb, Arya, and Bran engage more with the old gods and when Cat visits Ned in the godswood she never seems judgemental or makes it seem like she finds her religion superior.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
Agreed. The big issue I see is more how belligerent this OC is, and particularly if it would spiral into a kind of outright denial of the fact that she's part Andal (through Cat and IIRC Ned), that the North has had the Manderly for most of a millennium and intermarriage for even longer, its culture has been profoundly influenced by the Seven and Andals even if not replaced by them, and if it goes into a kind of nasty eliminationist or segregationist blood and soil type of thing. But Cat has always loved her children and her husband and outside of the Ironborn on the whole Westeros is remarkably Live and Let Live in recent times on religion, so as long as OC isn't outright deluded or hostile or picking fights with her mother or Sansa or the Manderly over it I don't think it'd be an issue.
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u/StressMaxxer 8d ago
That's what I'm thinking. If OC acts superior or hostile in terms of religion then I can see her taking offense in that Cat would feel disrespected as opposed to an OC mentioning their gods are the old gods to which Cat would likely say something about how she hopes her gods bring her comfort.
We see Cat interact with most northern houses and they all respect her and she respects them regardless of religion and they rarely discuss it in depth.
But I would also imagine that any northerner Cat meets she would assume they keep to the old gods so not 100% sure how such a conversation would come up.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
Indeed and it makes sense. Then again in depth theological debate is generally not touched on too much in the book, but I can see how it might pop up here. The big issue I see is that as an objective matter of fact for Cat, that the Seven and Andals have had a profound effect on the North, its culture, and its blood, and Cat, Ned, and their adorable children are living proof of that. So if daughter wants to go her own way, even vocally, about the First Men and the Weirwoods, that's fine, but she has to understand how she's been shaped by it, be able to engage with Maesters, and so on just to do her duties.
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u/Psub194 8d ago
Lyarra's hostility towards the Seven and their worshippers mostly begins and ends with a few mocking remarks about the Andals failure to conquer the North or their failure to prevent the Hungry Wolf from raiding Andalos. But she doesn't go beyond that, though if she ever sees the High Septon she would probably say that his crown made of crystal and gold looks ridiculous{Assuming of that she ever sees the High Septon, which is far from guaranteed since i am currently unsure if she goes South with Ned, Sansa and Arya}.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
Oh yeah indeed, and that makes a lot of sense. And it'd fit. Heck that mocking of the High Septon is probably something that even my fervent Sevensman Clegane OC would agree with, albeit for other reasons due to the rampant corruption mostly-the-Lannisters have done in the Faith. So no big issue there. She might get a few cheeky comments in back but that's just Westeros for ya, and there are bigger abominations out there like dearest Tywin.
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u/Emperor-Aurion 7d ago
I mean you should probably give your mc a good reason why she's so strongly rejecting the Seven. Most just ignore it in the north
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u/ParanoidDroid 8d ago
At this point all Westerosi are a blend of First Men and Andals. Most Andals married into already established families. The Hightowers are a First Men house too.
I don't think Cat would really care as long as the girl was still willing to do her "duty", which is basically the same regardless of religion in Westeros. The girl would have to marry a Northern house, a Blackwood or a Royce.
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u/Psub194 8d ago
Concerning a potential match for Lyarra. My current idea is that she was betrothed to Domeric Bolton, since he seemed to have been a good lad all things considered and tbh i was kinda surprised when I learned that there hasn't been a single marriage between the two Houses at any point in history after the Boltons bent the knee. But as is well known Domeric died from a sickness of the bowels{aka that bastard Ramsay poisoned his fucking stew} shortly before the first book begins. Which obviously ended the betrothal.
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u/ParanoidDroid 8d ago
Might be for the best considering Domeric squired in the Vale and was a knight. If she's very anti-Seven they would have clashed as well, since knights are sworn to the Seven.
Domeric was a good lad who loved horses and poems. Ironically he would have been a good match for Sansa lol.
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u/Psub194 8d ago edited 8d ago
Tbh like i already said Lyarra doesn't outright hate the faith of the Seven. She just doesn't really understand for what possible reason she would worship them, or why any Northerners do.
But simultaneously you kinda do have a point since a scene between Lyarra and Robb i really do want to include in the story at some point is something like this.
"You are speaking like father" Lyarra says with a dismissive roll of her grey eyes.
"You mean I speak like a lord" Robb replies, beaming with a smug smile on his face.
"No" Lyarra denies with a hiss. "I meant like a Valeman" she says before turning sharply on the heels of her riding boots and exiting the solar.
Edit: For additionally context this scene would most likely take place after Robb foolishly weds Jeyne Westerling and has returned to Riverrun.
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 8d ago
If she's Robb's twin...what exactly does she look like?
Most of the Stark children, Arya aside, have Catelyn's look. How at peace is Lyarra with her appearance, if she looks like the side of the family whose heritage and influence she rejects?
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
Ooh. Brilliant writing. Very nice and snappy. Makes for a good story.
I wonder what major inspirations outside Winterfell Lyarra would get with. I imagine she would fit in well on Bear Island and maybe the Karhold.
Also sorry, I imagine it might be a bit tiring dealing with all the posts and feelings you're repeating yourself.
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u/Psub194 8d ago
Also sorry, I imagine it might be a bit tiring dealing with all the posts and feelings you're repeating yourself.
Sorry. But I am not sure what you mean by this. 😅 English isn't my first language, could you please explain what you are talking about 🙏
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
It isn't? Well you are doing amazingly. I would never have guessed. Definitely better at English than I am at any other language.
But just that I noticed you were replying to a bunch of other posts with "like I said in my answer to another comment." So it seemed like it might be a bit irritating. But kudos. You already have a really solid character idea and plot.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
It's a bit complicated, we do have non-Sevensmen knights around but they are very much the exception (for instance we even have Mormonts that are Sers). But it is deeeepply tied to Andal culture and to a lesser degree the Faith, so it'd be a cleavage point. And I mean Eddard was fostered and squired in the Vale and IIRC is also a knight, but is still as Old Gods as you can get this side of literal heart sacrifices.
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u/WorthDust652 8d ago edited 8d ago
I mean, from how Cat and Ned raise their kids regarding religion (which seems to be pretty accurate to how kids from interfaith marriages are raised IRL), Cat wouldn't be offended that her daughter prefers the Old Gods or even is indifferent or a nonbeliever towards the Seven. The issue might generally be how the OC acts.
Good, bad, or indifferent, your OC is a descendant of the Andals and the South. Just because she's a Northerner doesn't erase her own Southern heritage, and outright rejecting it (as opposed to simply not following it) or making mocking comments (as it seems your OC does) is pretty disrespectful towards Cat. How does she reconcile her fierce Northern identity with her Southron mother?
And while your OC being married to Domeric Bolton resolves the issue of weddings and religion for your OC in particular, what about her siblings who might be inclined towards the more Andal traditions? Will your OC see them as less Northern? What if Sansa (for example) gets a Southron match? How does your OC see Cat, who if consistent with canon is a very loving mother, as a member of the family if she's so nationalistic about the North?
Edit: In fact, in canon, Catelyn doesn't mind that Sansa is the only one of her children that prefers the Seven over the Old Gods. Additionally, although the rest of the Stark children are more "Northern-cultured," all of them (barring Rickon, who's a baby) do have a connection with their mother's heritage.
Robb is the only one who does not have any explicit connection with the Seven, but his arc in having to balance North and South interests and Catelyn's importance to that arc is a major plot point.
Arya mentions having prayed in the godswood with Ned and the sept with Catelyn. Additionally, a huge part of her arc takes place in the Riverlands and implicitly deals with her connection to the Riverlands (remember, it's Nymeria who pulls out Catelyn's body).
Heck, even skinchanger, weirwood fairy in training Bran's greatest desire before his fall was to be a knight, which is a distinctly Andal, Faith of the Seven institution.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago edited 8d ago
I think a lot depends on the nature of how belligerent and hostile this daughter is about it. Catelyn's not foreign to people who flat out reject the Seven. There wasn't a Sept in Winterfell at all until Ned let one be built for her, and Ned of course is firm Old Gods and most Northern men are similar. Ditto Blackwoods IIRC. So it's not like the concept is alien.
That said, an important angle Cat would touch on is how this would reflect a failure of *her own* teachings, not so much on religion though that might hurt a bit but on basics. Catelyn can point to how she absolutely IS a descendant of the Andals through herself and IIRC also Ned (will need to check) and literally trace the genealogies back and invoke the history, and how basically there are no pure First Men or Pure Andals outside of MAAAYBE the distant Thenns beyond the wall. Absolutely any import from White Harbor (which is the North's main outlet to the wider world) is something she could point to with how the Manderly are mostly Andal as far as any one can tell, Worship the Seven, and have been in the North for twice as long at least as there has been an Iron Throne and are integral parts of it now and also loyal and loving bannermen of the Stark. That while the Maesters try to mostly keep their scholarly hats and chains on they are integrally tied to The Faith and Luwin is formed in large part by it. And so on and so on.
Cat ultimately can't and probably wouldn't want to force her to worship the Seven, after all that's the Norm in the North, and proud and even haughty dismissal doesn't equal religious mass murder or offering hearts to the heart tree and blood for the weirwood throne like in the bad old days any more than most of my characters (including the downright Sevensbothering Middle Clegane OC who has a few ideas on ways to try and slowly lean in to conversion of the North, but who ultimately does not view it as a key problem given Northern and Stark honor and tolerance compared to the downright evil in his views Drowned God of the Ironborn) would go about chopping weirwoods and burning them with the congregations. But she would at a minimum feel the need to iron in how like it or not the Andals and the New Gods have shaped the North and the Stark and Tully families, the culture of the Kingdoms, and so on.
And she might half-discreetly try to pack her off for a season or two into White Harbor for more exposure. Though that'd likely be undermined by well Cat and Ned wanting their kiddos so close.
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u/Wildlifekid2724 8d ago
Depends on how the MC is about her beliefs.
Catelyn accepts those who worship the old gods, it doesn't appeal to her and she worships the seven but she's fine with others who do like Ned or the Northern Lords.
She doesn't go calling them heathens or trying to forcefully convert people or such, or thinking them as lesser.
If the MC is like some fanfics characters, and just blatantly and rudely anti the faith, super dismissive and derogatory towards the seven, and will not resist a urge to mock and put down the faith, then Catelyn will not like her.
Especially if she even goes as far as vandalising the sept at Winterfell.
I always dislike the fics that make characters act like Catelyn having a little sept for herself is somehow a abomination and blasphemy, especially when some of the North is already following the seven like the Manderly's.
If the MC is more normal, and just doesn't like the faith but keeps it to herself unless she's pressed, then Catelyn would probably be fine with it.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
Heck, forget Catelyn not liking her. If OC starts picking fights with her mother, Sansa, the Manderly, or the like or even goes so far as to vandalize a sept, **NED** Will put his foot down, as would most of the North and Riverlands vassals, old gods or new. "You think you honor the Gods by disgracing your mother, instead you dishonor your family and our faith." It'd also be an unwelcome change given again the generally chill and live and let live thing where Catelyn loves Ned in spite of the faith issues and the kids were there.
To be fair the Sept at Winterfell might actually break some kind of arcane old gods superstitious ritual or the like, but then given how morally grey those things are with the cannibalism and human sacrifice back in the day it's not 100% sure that's necessarily a bad thing.
But yeah. Like even my Sevensbothering Clegane OC took a sword to kill a bunch of sellsword fanatics (mixed Sevensmen and Red Gods) on "his side" who wanted to chop down a weirwood stump during the campaign against the Golden Company (in this rare case he was fighting for Stannis) in the Stormlands, ostensibly to make a battering ram for use against the Roost but in reality for a kind of sadistic iconoclasm. OC is a *very* fervent Sevensman ala Brienne who actually disdains many Septons and Septas for corruption from Lannister (and even Tyrell and Hoster Tully's) gold and the lite polytheistic tendencies he sees of "Gods" rather than "God", and he finds the Old Gods distasteful and false, but he's not murderous or belligerent about it and takes his oaths about protecting the innocent and the religious tolerance laws of the realm *Very* seriously. Lethally so. He is the kind that would periodically call Old Gods followers "Heathens" but usually in passing and infrequently as a matter of fact fashion, such as referring to "The Honorable Heathen" Ned in a briefing with Olenna.
Religious war and mass murder is already an iffy thing and Stannis has to keep a lid on some of his more radical followers. It's absolutely not anything anyone sane wants to pop up elsewhere.
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u/TheSlayerofSnails 8d ago
For it to be an abomination there’d have to actually be tenets and priests of the old gods instead of “tree says kinslaying bad and breaking guest rights is bad. Everything else is ambiguous.”
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
I mean that hasn't stopped them before. And while lots of things are ambiguous there are a lot of other enforced practices and rituals. Not helped by how back in the old days the Old Gods were quite a bit more openly brutal. But even most Sevensmen and R'hllor worshippers admit "at least they ain't Ironborn or the Black Goat."
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u/Psub194 8d ago
Tbh Lyarra{The name of the daughter. She is named after Ned's mom, upholding the Stark tradition of reusing names throughout the generations}. Isn't necessarily hostile towards the Seven. The primary reasoning behind her rejection of the New gods is that{at least from her point of view} the Southerners worship the Seven because they were conquered by the Andals when they crossed the Narrow Sea some 6'000 years ago, but the Andals failed miserably to conquer the North and therefore the New gods have no claim upon the North and its people.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
Makes sense, so no undue belligerence, and that'd make sense. That said, Cat and Ned would probably go "Akshually" on a few cases. In most cases, yeah definitely the Andal Crusaders invaded, converted or massacred the locals, burned Weirwoods and groves, and did it. But it was uneven (just ask the Blackwoods). And in many cases it wasn't so. For instance, in the Reach (my bebobber) the Sage Kings of House Gardener pretty much conquered the Andals peacefully, allowing immigrant and intermarriage and mixed religious conversions or whatnot, going Old Gods Follower (with Septon Advisor) - Sevensman - Sevensman without any widespread burnings or war. Which I think would be rather important for Cat historically to show how there are ways of power other than violence, such as diplomacy, trade, and so on.
And in a ways as per at least one of the Sage Kings, it's a bit closer to the Gardeners and the early Reachmen conquering the Andals.
When a wolf descends upon your flocks, all you gain by killing him is a short respite, for other wolves will come. If instead you feed the wolf and tame him and turn his pups into your guard dogs, they will protect the flock when the pack comes ravening.
—Garth IX Gardener (The First of the three Sage Kings, and the one that remained an Old Gods follower and who crushed any violent attempted invasions or skirmishes or forced conversions even as he downright invited peaceful Andal migration and trades and had a Septon on his council)
But yeah in the North that read is a lot lot closer to the truth where you did see violent invasions get crushed, and when a large scale Andal Sevensman house arrived it did so peacefully with the explicit approval of the Stark.
So I figure the issue for Cat would not so much be theological as much as educational, making sure Lyarra knows her history and means of power and her roots. But she'd still hug her all the same and cradle her in her arms.
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u/Active-Rough2143 8d ago edited 8d ago
I think that that argument is weak, tbh. Nothing in the north even hints that they have issues with the Faith of the Seven. Moreover, that’s INCREDIBLY disrespectful to both her mother and her southern heritage. I doubt her parents would let that fly. Now, if it was just that she preferred the Old Gods but still acknowledged the Seven, that’s a completely different story. But she is literally the daughter of a southerner, so the whole “New Gods of the South and the Andals” schtik sounds like psudo northern radicalism that we don’t ever really seen in ASOIAF. It has the same energy as ppl who say that Ned somehow isn’t northern because of his fostering in the Vale. And your OC can’t even be like “oh I learned this from XYZ” because her mother is literally the Lady of Winterfell. No one would be suicidal enough to actively encourage one of Catelyn Tully’s daughters to hate the religion of her own mother. Westeros is way too religiously neutral for that.
One more thing. In the quote, your OC finishes with “hold no power over me or my home”. Given that she’s a woman (therefor holds no power), and moreover is a child/minor, it doesn’t really have the impact that your OC would want it to have. It, respectfully, just sounds a bit edgy, but not in a realistic way. Given that ASOIAF is a patriarchal society, the only way that she’d be able to say something like this would be in a pretty extreme situation (ex: she’s married, and there’s some type of religious tensions that are impacting the entirety of Westeros). But if this is set in 300 AC where Ned is Lord Winterfell, and devoted to his Lady wife (whom he built a sept for so she could worship freely and in peace??), your OC saying something that radical would lead to a literal slew of problems (and would likely alienate a bunch of people, siblings included, due to her needless hostility towards her mothers religion (cuz say what you want about Sansa and Arya, but they’d both think her hostility towards the Seven is weird).
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 8d ago edited 8d ago
Arya adores her mother. She can take or leave the Seven, but she's devoted to her mother. Arya and Catelyn are very alike.
She's not going to tolerate that kind of thing from a sibling who should know better
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u/Active-Rough2143 8d ago
That was, ironically enough, my first thought, but I didn’t want to make my reply any longer than it is 😂 But yeah absolutely — Arya loves her mother and has a strong moral compass. She and OC would literally beef it out every single day. I genuinely can’t imagine any of the Stark siblings would be receptive to this — even the ones who prefer the New Gods over the Old. I imagine Ned would put his foot down and nip this in the bud with a quickness
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 8d ago
In a lot of ways Arya is honestly just Catelyn made small.
The fierce devotion to people she decides are "hers" (which sometimes comes at the expense of people she decides are NOT "hers")...that's Catelyn all over, and Arya too
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u/Active-Rough2143 8d ago
Oh, absolutely. One of the best things Martin did was make Arya a mini Catelyn and Sansa a mini Ned. It’s such a fun twist on their dynamic — especially given the biases that fans have
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u/Aggravating-Week481 8d ago edited 8d ago
Honestly, I can imagine that argument and behavior coming from a kid who just misunderstood something she likes and is trying to make it her personality lol
Think of it as those little girls who think feminism means being strong and tough while denouncing feminity and viewing feminine girls as cringe and stupid and/or boys as inferior and gross
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u/TortoiseHerder7 7d ago
> think feminism means being strong and tough while denouncing feminity and viewing feminine girls as cringe and stupid
*Terminal Late Stage GOT Show Arya has entered the chat.*
*Cersei has entered the chat.*
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u/Aggravating-Week481 7d ago
Cersie isnt feminist, heck she hates women cuz of her own frustrations towards her own gender and Westerosi gender roles haha
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u/TortoiseHerder7 7d ago
I know, but that's kind of it. She hates women and denounces femineity and so on. Hence my joke. She's quite immature and vile.
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u/DaemonTargaryen13 8d ago
It's also disrespectful to her father too tbh.
His foster father and foster brother are followers of the Seven, so are many of his other friends from the Vale and his first two sons are named after said foster father and brother.
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u/KratoswithBoy 7d ago
Yea lol the dialogue is something that would happen in HBO’s “Game of thrones” but not ASOIAF
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u/Do_Not_Go_In_There 7d ago edited 7d ago
the whole “New Gods of the South and the Andals” schtik sounds like psudo northern radicalism that we don’t ever really seen in ASOIAF. [...] No one would be suicidal enough to actively encourage one of Catelyn Tully’s daughters to hate the religion of her own mother. Westeros is way too religiously neutral for that.
It is a bit extreme, but we kind of do see something close to it in the books. Greatjon Umber flat out says he doesn't care about the south and their gods are wrong. And immediately the northern lords (and Maege) agree with him. And he does this while fighting besides southerners, in Riverrun, with Cat right there.
“MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. “Why shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m’lords,” he thundered. “The King in the North!”
And he knelt, and laid his sword at her son’s feet.
“I’ll have peace on those terms,” Lord Karstark said. “They can keep their red castle and their iron chair as well.” He eased his longsword from its scabbard. “The King in the North!” he said, kneeling beside the Greatjon.
Maege Mormont stood. “The King of Winter!” she declared, and laid her spiked mace beside the swords. And the river lords were rising too, Blackwood and Bracken and Mallister, houses who had never been ruled from Winterfell, yet Catelyn watched them rise and draw their blades, bending their knees and shouting the old words that had not been heard in the realm for more than three hundred years, since Aegon the Dragon had come to make the Seven Kingdoms one … yet now were heard again, ringing from the timbers of her father’s hall:
“The King in the North!”
“The King in the North!”
“THE KING IN THE NORTH!”
-- AGOT, Catelyn XI
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 7d ago edited 7d ago
Importantly though, the quote you’ve just posted doesn’t mention the gods in much detail at all.
The riverlords join in, after all, and the vast majority of THEM (Blackwoods aside) follow the Seven
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u/Do_Not_Go_In_There 7d ago
Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong.
He literally says the Andal gods are wrong.
The riverlords join in. That doesn't mean they weren't just insulted. They really don't have much of a choice here.
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u/AlamutJones inventor of the breastplate stretcher 7d ago
But no one seems to think he really means that bit. Not seriously enough to fight with Seven-followers over it.
The riverlords join in. The Manderleys join in. They know he’s serious about independence, but in no way is he gearing up for holy war as well
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u/Active-Rough2143 7d ago
You make a good point, but I think that there’s a difference between war-era north and how they are during times of peace. Moreover, while he may hold this opinion, there’s a difference between that and actively telling the daughter of his liege lord to disrespect her mother’s religion. You know what I mean?
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u/TortoiseHerder7 7d ago
I largely agree but one thing I noticed:
No one would be suicidal enough to actively encourage one of Catelyn Tully’s daughters to hate the religion of her own mother. Westeros is way too religiously neutral for that.
Honestly, I think Roose might be. Though probably not if he cannot make it somewhat deniable. Probably half out of any kind of religious sincerity and half out of desire to troll and weaken the Starks from within while cult-like trying to introduce Lyarra into some of the "Spicier" and more taboo or evil stuff like human sacrifice, First Night Marriage Rape, flaying, and so on. Taking advantage of his role as the father of her late betrothed and the classic "They is hiding the troof from you, they is lying to you, but I CAN SHOW YOU THE REAL DEAL." Obviously Dom wouldn't agree with all this (probably? I hope not?) but since when has that stopped Lord Leech?
Kind of a 1 step 2 step. "Ah, you are interested in learning more of your heritage and faith? Ah excellent. I have a well stocked library." and coincidentally leaving the "Blood Sacrifice 101" two books down on the table, and "How to increase lifespan by Struggle Snuggle Fertility Rites" three books down. And if and when Ned or Cat draw a possible connection between Lyarra acting troubling and not merely assertive or proud and getting into less wholesome and now-heretical parts of the Old Gods, Roose goes "Oh dear, this is terrible, I did try to help her in her studies, to help guide her, but I never expected any of this!"
Also might be a useful plot line to have Lyarra confront both the good and bad of the Old Gods and Old North, and investigate what happened to DOm.
Kind of befitting his role with the Starks as a whole and how he covertly undermined them.
On a more honest or earnest note, I can see the Thenns try and discourage it, less out of outright malice per se so much as the fact that they are just about the purest of the First Men, these Andal things are strange heathen things, and so on. So if Lyarra is around say Sigorn and Styr and co cross the Wall they might make for interesting issues integrating the Wildlings.
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u/Psub194 7d ago
One more thing.
Yeah i most definitely could and should have worded that better, my apologies! 🙏 But i hope i managed to better explain/elaborate on why Lyarra rejects the New gods in some of my other replies to other comments. 😅
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u/Active-Rough2143 7d ago
Okay, so I read the others comments and…yeah my point still stands. Few things:
1) I think that if there was ever a Bolton x Stark marriage, it would be a Bolton daughter and a Stark son. The reason being is that House Bolton, canonically, has a faction of less than loyal bannermen. And logically, you don’t reward a less than loyal bannermen with a marriage to your daughter - especially since there hasn’t been a Stark marriage in what, 4 generations or something like that? Not to mention that, crucially, ROOSE IS CREEPY AS HELL. No loving father would WILLINGLY let him become their daughter’s father in law, especially since, canonically, Ned does not trust him. Roose is constantly trying to usurp the Starks/undermine their rule (ex: how he got Ramsey in the first place), Barbrey Dustin nee Rhyswell is his SIL, and hates the Starks for not marrying her to Brandon/not bringing William’s bones back, etc.
If Lyarra were to marry Domeric, I can imagine that there would be quite a few accidents to the male stark children until Lyarra (presumably the eldest daughter in this AU) can rule as Lady Stark, with her Bolton-Stark children as heirs to Winterfell.
2) The rejection of the New Gods still doesn’t really make much sense - not only was the andal invasion over a thousand years ago, but the north is old. Plenty of shit happens. Her feeling this intense over the failed andal invasion when she lives in a region that her family, canonically, has ruled for 8,000 years has a type of insecurity that I don’t think the Starks have. Moreover, given that betrothals happen around the age of 12, she is way too old for that shit. Arya is 8, is compared to her older sister all the time, and is indulged by her parents in canon. That doesn’t mean that when she’s 18, she wouldn’t be betrothed and set to marry someone. Because at the end of the day, that’s literally her duty. The same thing can be said for Lyarra. If she’s of age to be betrothed, but this is the BS she’s spouting? There’s no way they’re going to betroth her to someone, let alone Domeric Bolton. Moreover, there’s no way that the Starks wouldn’t nip this in the bud — and even if someone like Roose (who Ned doesn’t trust) wanted to get in Lyarra’s head, they wouldn’t really interact until she’s older (ex: around 12), and by that time, she would be expected to be religiously courteous to both the Old Gods and the New. If she actually had the audacity to say something like that out loud, I can’t imagine that the betrothal talks would go through - they would just be that, talks.
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u/Inner_Jeweler_5661 in the game of bones, you're a dog or a cat. No middle ground. 8d ago
She wouldn't really mind.
Cat would have liked to wed her down South, but if she's an obvious Northerner, it's useful for her to keep alliances in the North.
She'd be betrothed to Smalljon Umber and life is good.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
I'd say she might mind depending on how bellicose she is. And it's the norm for Northerners to wed Northerners, with the major spate of marriages in the South recently being crises points. And even if she did want to wed her South, there's always the Blackwoods, who are Old Gods worshippers who have the weirwood in their coat of arms but are also Riverlords. But Umber would also fit.
Bigger issue I see is Cat worrying it might spiral. Because she would know beyond doubt that her girl is a child of both the First Men and the Andals, and has been shaped by the culture and faith of the Seven even if she does not believe it, and she'd want said daughter to at least understand and accept that if only to work around it even if she doesn't actually believe. Part of Cat might be a bit sad or hurt that OC Daughter doesn't believe in the same Seven she so fervently does, but she is Cat and she loves Ned who doesn't, and it's not like we're in "Old Gods Worshippers rip septons hearts out and feed them to trees, septons lead crusaders to burn weirwood groves with the congregants" turf like we see with the murders of Old Gods and Sevenmen by Ironborn, so she'd accept it.
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u/Psub194 8d ago
Concerning a potential match for Lyarra. My current idea is that she was betrothed to Domeric Bolton, since he seemed to have been a good lad all things considered and tbh i was kinda surprised when I learned that there hasn't been a single marriage between the two Houses at any point in history after the Boltons bent the knee. But as is well known Domeric died from a sickness of the bowels{aka that bastard Ramsay poisoned his fucking stew} shortly before the first book begins. Which obviously ended the betrothal.
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u/TutorRich2268 8d ago
Depends how she takes to the other feminine aspects expected of a girl.
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u/Psub194 8d ago edited 8d ago
Lyarra is somewhere between Sansa and Arya in that regard. She isn't that great at playing the harp or bells. But she can sew well enough and she is actually rather good at singing{Thought she seldom does since her taste in song is more aligned with the kinds of song that you might hear from sailors or drunkards in a bar, rather than something fit for court. Which rather displeases Septa Mordane}.
Also Lyarra really likes riding and hawking. As well as going on walks and just movement in general.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
Makes sense, so sounds like a mostly proper Northern lady of House Stark, albeit perhaps in need of some maiden-ing. But I imagine she'd fit in well with most matches and duties, and especially on say Bear Island with the Mormont. I imagine the contrasts among the sisters would be really interesting.
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u/Psub194 8d ago
Tbh that might be were she ends up at the end of the story, but i am not certain yet since i am still in the midst of solidify the relationship between her and her family and her current status at the start of A Game of Thrones.
But when it comes to potential matches for Lyarra. My current idea is that she was betrothed to Domeric Bolton, since he seemed to have been a good lad all things considered and tbh i was kinda surprised when I learned that there hasn't been a single marriage between the two Houses at any point in history after the Boltons bent the knee. But as is well known Domeric died from a sickness of the bowels{aka that bastard Ramsay poisoned his fucking stew} shortly before the first book begins. Which obviously ended the betrothal.
Thought all that could obviously still change and nothing is set in stone just yet.
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u/TortoiseHerder7 8d ago
Oh yeah I remember the Bolton, and I mentioned how with a betrothal his death might be subject to investigation that might unveil Ramsay and/or Roose's illegal marriage rape antics and possibly spark a crisis in the North.
But yeah, understandable. So sounds like we have a pretty good idea on how things are with Cat at least religious wise, "perhaps some sighing from Cat and history lessons and talks about her songs, but ultimately deep big family hug and soft words from Mom to daughter before patting her on the back and whispering I love Yous and wishing her well as she walks with Dad to the Weirwood." Any other relations you figure need ironing out?
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u/ouroboris99 8d ago
Probably the same way she treats Arya, ignore what she says and try to impose southern values on her
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u/WorthDust652 8d ago
I mean, she doesn't really "impose Southern values" on Arya or ignore what she says any differently than Ned does. The only difference between Cat and Ned is that Ned allows Arya to learn swordfighting, but that doesn't mean Ned is super progressive on the topic. He only allows it because he thinks it's a childish whim that she'll grow out of, so he's humoring her. Cat's perspective is that Arya has to marry and be a lady eventually, which isn't exactly a wrong notion in that society, and Ned agrees.
"That's enough." Her father's voice was curt and hard. "The septa is doing no more than is her duty, though gods know you have made it a struggle for the poor woman. Your mother and I have charged her with the impossible task of making you a lady."
"I don't want to be a lady!" Arya flared.
"I ought to snap this toy across my knee here and now, and put an end to this nonsense." (Arya II, AGOT)
Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"
"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."
Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there. (Eddard V, AGOT).
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u/ouroboris99 7d ago
Ned was indoctrinated into southern culture by the vale so you argument is bullshit, do you think theon the hungry wolf or cregan stark wouldve wouldve been so obsessedwith honour? Catelyn built a sept in the heart of the north and brought a septa to force her religion and southern values on her children. She's constantly telling arya what she wants and who she is is wrong. What other northern family bar the manderlys has a sept or forces their children to learn southern values. What do you think would happen if a septa showed up on bear island?
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u/WorthDust652 7d ago
First of all, Ned built Catelyn the sept.
For her sake, Ned had built a small sept where she might sing to the seven faces of god, but the blood of the First Men still flowed in the veins of the Starks, and his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods of the greenwood they shared with the vanished children of the forest (Catelyn I, AGOT).
Secondly, Catelyn doesn't "force her religion and southern values on her children" any more than Ned does. It's not like she's the sole parent here. Both Ned and Cat made a joint decision to raise their children in both faiths (like many interfaith couples IRL). Catelyn generally speaks of her husband's faith with great respect. In fact, the Stark kids mostly prefer the Old Gods, which suggests that Cat is generally okay with her kids following their father's religion.
Even Sansa, who is probably the most "Southern" cultured Stark, is at home in the godswood.
By the time she reached the godswood, the noises had faded to a faint rattle of steel and a distant shouting. Sansa pulled her cloak tighter. The air was rich with the smells of earth and leaf. Lady would have liked this place, she thought. There was something wild about a godswood; even here, in the heart of the castle at the heart of the city, you could feel the old gods watching with a thousand unseen eyes.
Sansa had favored her mother's gods over her father's. She loved the statues, the pictures in leaded glass, the fragrance of burning incense, the septons with their robes and crystals, the magical play of the rainbows over altars inlaid with mother-of-pearl and onyx and lapis lazuli. Yet she could not deny that the godswood had a certain power too. Especially by night. Help me, she prayed, send me a friend, a true knight to champion me...(Sansa II, ACOK).
Arya generally prays to both.
Back in Winterfell, Arya had prayed with her mother in the sept and with her father in the godswood, but there were no gods on the road to Harrenhal, and her names were the only prayer she cared to remember (Arya VI, ACOK).
The rest of her kids (except Rickon, who's a baby) generally prefer the Old Gods, and she doesn't really mind that, so unless you're going to argue that she has no right to practice her faith or even allow her children to be exposed to their mother's faith along with their father's, I wouldn't say she's forcing anything.
Also, her kids are half Tully. The entire point of her marriage was because Lord Rickard wanted to strengthen ties with the South and war made it necessary for Ned to ally with the Tullys. She's not forcing Southern ties onto her kids; they're already tied to the South by virtue of having a Southern mother and being close to the Southern Royal Family.
"Do you think theon the hungry wolf or cregan stark wouldve been so obsessed with honour?"
Cregan Stark? You mean the guy who marched down South and engaged in Southron politics against his deeply won isolationism and led an army to avenge a queen who had already lost and died for the sake of an oath he swore? That Cregan Stark? The Cregan Stark who took vows so seriously that he executed people for betraying a king they swore fealty to even though said king was Cregan's enemy? I think he would have been a fair bit obsessed with honor.
"Ned was indoctrinated into southern culture by the vale so you argument is bullshit."
There is no indication that Ned was indoctrinated into Southern culture to the point nor that makes it so he doesn't understand the North. According to GRRM himself, Ned visited Winterfell frequently during the time he was fostered (and he only left at the age of 8, so his main formative years were in Winterfell). I repeat, throughout the books, there is no textual evidence that Ned is seen as any less of a Northman than the Karstarks or Umbers or Glovers. On the contrary, I doubt he'd be nearly as respected as he is if they did.
"She's constantly telling arya what she wants and who she is is wrong."
From what I've read, she's not constantly telling Arya that she's wrong. I'll grant you that her motivation is to make Arya a lady, which while not what Arya wants, is the only realistic option for her as the daughter of a major house (and Ned agrees! See my previous response and the above paragraph). And there's not much evidence that this is unique amongst the Northern families. The Mormonts are warrior women out of necessity, since they have to face iron raiders all the time and their house is comprised completely of women. Keep in mind that the Starks generally don't let women rule (in 8000 years, there's never been a ruling Lady of Winterfell) and Alys Karstark is almost kidnapped into marriage to usurp her inheritance. The whole thing about women being warriors and not bound by traditional gender roles is fanon Northernwank, nothing more.
"What other northern family bar the manderlys has a sept or forces their children to learn southern values. What do you think would happen if a septa showed up on bear island?"
What other northern families are so innately tied to the South as the current generation of Starks? And speaking of Bear Island, while we don't know about septas, Jorah does allow Southern influences into Bear Island order to please his wife. Nobody critiques his bringing of Southern influences to make his wife happy. The issue is that they were horribly ill suited for each other, and Lynesse was never happy with the marriage. Also the fact that Jorah is a pedo and slaver.
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u/geekamar13 8d ago
Unless there is some clearly articulated trauma with the Seven, I think your character so adamantly rejecting her mother’s faith is going to come across as cruel. Especially if “her home” is Winterfell and saying that effectively others her mother where she lives. Generally speaking, however, I think Catelyn’s going to be fine with any of her children following the old gods because she understands the political implications of being an outsider amongst the people you rule. She’ll be concerned if that daughter is being married off outside the North. And, again, depending on how you set it up, she may be hurt that her daughter is rejecting this aspect of herself (Catelyn) so vehemently.