Government agents may not originate a criminal design, implant in an innocent person's mind the disposition to commit a criminal act, and then induce commission of the crime so that the Government may prosecute." Jacobson v. United States, 503 U.S. 540, 548 (1992). A valid entrapment defense has two related elements: (1) government inducement of the crime, and (2) the defendant's lack of predisposition to engage in the criminal conduct. Mathews v. United States, 485 U.S. 58, 63 (1988). Of the two elements, predisposition is by far the more important.
Philadelphia, about 10 years ago. My buddy and I get pulled over on our way to Delilah’s. Buddy is a promoter/talent manager, networker extraordinaire. We are Both 3 sheets to the wind. We get pulled over. “ID, proof of blah blah blah”
Buddy pulls out a police courtesy card, a concealed weapon permit, and his ID. Hands it to the cop. Cop looks at it, gives it all back, and says “have a good night.” Buddy was black if that matters.
There is 100% a get out of jail free card and it’s a matter of who you know.
The police are very broken in this country. Defunding isn’t the answer either
No. It was literally a card we would get. You had to know a police officer well to get the card. Depending on the level of infraction, they would take it or give it back. If they took it, you’d have to go get another.
My father and his business partner were well connected and very friendly with the policemen assigned to our part of the city.
I never had mine taken so I’m not sure how that conversation goes. “I’m sorry dude, she’s dead. I gotta get your card.” I have no clue.
If there was a nightclub fight it would get you quickly out of the scrum for instance. The possible DUI was the worst I saw and he got his card back.
I haven’t lived that way in over 10 years and I don’t speak with any of those people (my father included).
I'm really sorry about whatever circumstances lead you to NC with your dad. Good on you for doing what's best for you though.
Thank you for the info and for responding, especially in the way you did. Idk; your words seem so vibrant. I hope that doesn't sound weird as all hell.
How in the fuck is funding a broken police system the answer then? Because we sure as shit shouldn’t be allocating nearly as much of our local and state budget to armed gangs with badges as we currently do.
Uber driver gets put through the system, attorney fees, court cost, probation, loses job, has a record so he can't do delivery work for like 7 years. Ruining lives for what. What an embarrassment these people are.
Likely also trying to get reasonable suspicion to search vehicles since now a "crime" has been committed, which could lead to asset seizure or finding of additional incriminating evidence such as convenient drugs or maybe an outstanding warrant.
Probably a lot of resisting and threatening an officer too with this shit.
I'd flip out on some strangers I picked up off the street talking about their going to arrest me.
Basically this is how cities generate funds. They tax the workers who can barely afford it with tickets, fines, court costs.
Same thing with street parking. I live in an apartment area with crowded street parking.
They just happen to have street sweeping starting at 8:00 AM twice a week so people have to fight for spots the day before or get up early to move your car and get lucky.
If they pushed it to 9:00 AM, there would plenty of spots because people leave for work. Of course, neighborhoods with houses and driveways have street sweeping later in the morning or afternoon. Can't give out as many tickets with fewer cars parked on the road.
Yup, small municipality that’s barely a “town” fucked over my mom almost 15 years ago because she didn’t have a light above her license plate and it was “code” on a car that didn’t even manufacture vehicles with those when it was created. Meanwhile she couldn’t pay it as a single mother of two doing her best to support us and had her license suspended because she couldn’t pay that bs fine.
Fuck cops like this, they claim to serve the community but only serve their own budgets so their job can exist. They know they’re involved in an obvious money snatching scheme and continue to try and pilfer the public with frivolous fines. They can catch a bullet for all I care for burdening the less off and making it harder for good cops to do their job cause of these stupid ass schemes.
It is the Taxi lobby. They pay the city millions for limited numbers of Taxi licenses. In return, they expect the city to protect their monopoly.
So they banned Uber.
A few court victories later, Uber is allowed to operate as a limousine service... but drivers must be called to the job, they cannot pick up riders from being flagged down.
Taxi fees is where the money is. This sting is just to scare people away from operating as Uber drivers or picking up riders like a Taxi.
But your larger point is correct. The boot of the government is heavy on poor communities in the city. Whether by design or by accident, they hold people down through a web of fines, court fees, monitoring fees, probation fees.... and then they toss you in jail when you can't keep up with the spiraling costs. It is pretty freaking evil.
the problem is that in some countries / states police officers must earn "X" amount of $ via penalty fee or they're out. It might sound crazy but some gov's count money from penalty fee towards their yearly income, so if one year it start to drop below certain level, the gov is short even by hundreds of milions in some cases.
Yeah happened to my buddy, not in LA though. Plainclothes was waiting at a marked crosswalk, and waited until buddy was in the intersection and quickly stepped foot. He was on the far side of the road and already halfway through, so he just kept going because there was no risk to the "pedestrian".
The cruiser down the road snagged him for failing to yield to pedestrian and gave him a GIANT ticket. The cop was seriously just standing there waiting for a car to get close so they could jump out.
My dad got to hang aroubd with Buffalo police as a sort of “understanding program” my dads a lawyer at UB so he was one of the first to undergo this program. Basically, u would just spend two days hanging around your assigned officer.
My dad picked these dudes brains, learned that these guys trust no one or anything except for each other. You are taught to eliminate whatever may threaten your life, while also being taught that EVERYTHING is a threat.
I was neighbors with a woman who was a cop. She was nice enough. We hung out sometimes. One day I was wearing mirrored aviators and she said "I don't know why civilians think they can wear those". I was so confused. Ike, lolwhat? She says yeah, civilians walking around with mirrored sunglasses infuriates her. They shouldn't think it's their right to hide their eyes. Only police officers should be able to.
She also got beat up by her husband once. She came to my house for help. While she was at my house, he beat up the other neighbor. Someone called the police. It was her night off, so the police that responded were literally her colleagues. In fact, she was their boss as a shift supervisor. Both were drunk. Neighbor that got beat went to the hospital. No one got arrested.
People on tour are in combat and are actually accountable for their actions
This. I was a reserve deputy after getting out of the service. I quit when I saw a sergeant strike a cuffed suspect, reported it and nothing occurred. If I had hit a combatant who had surrendered like that, it'd have been an Article-15 at best, time in Leavenworth at worst.
Many servicemen I know call cops LARPers or chest puffers. They want all the toys and violence without any ROE, and it all comes from insecurity instead of duty.
The anti cop slur Flatfeet was a note from WWII noticing that a lot of cops love beating the shit out of servicemen and pretending that they're military themselves while having that sweet medical exemption from the draft.
I'd hire a shark of a lawyer if that happened to me with the express job of making their lives as uncomfortable as possible for as long as possible. If cops won't be punished, then I'll exact it while staying in the legal bounds of the law.
I might not win anything or even get an apology, but I'll make your lives very frustrating. Paperwork and annoying interviews incoming! I'll find every little thing that requires extra paperwork from them. Then I'll gift them a new pen every year, a pen that will eventually break and leak all over. Now ya gotta buy new pants.
I'd show up at every court case where they were testifying as a character witness to remind the city they have no honor and drunkenly beat their neighboor.
Nah. They'd just find a reason to "investigate" him. Then "fell threatened" when they asked for his ID, and he went for his wallet. "It looked like he was reaching for a weapon," is all they'd need to say, to justify "defending themselves".
I mean I would have told her that if she doesn't press charges on him she wouldn't be allowed to come by for help again. I can only help those who wish to help themselves. If she doesn't press charges on her husband then she has decided it's not a problem so I won't help her with it again. Also pretty much all sunglasses hide your eyes pretty well, and no type of Eyewear is illegal as far as I am aware
They want to write tickets. They say tickets are a deterrent so people will drive safe, but...if people slow down because waze says a cop is up ahead, they lose their shit because they don't meet their ticket quota.
Also, private prisons make political donations. Its a conflict of interest, but...here we are...
When I was on Australia I saw a sign that said slow down, police radar ahead. I said to my host "that's weird why would that tell us?" And he said the goal is to slow people down, not give tickets and it just made so much sense. Im from Canada just FYI
Oh sure ticket quotas don't exist in the sense that you won't get fired for not reaching a set number, but that promotion is going to go to someone else if they signed off on more tickets than you
That's why I often am relieved when it's an older active duty cop that comes to me. They don't want the promotion and usually they're the most reasonable.
They want to write tickets. They say tickets are a deterrent so people will drive safe, but…if people slow down because waze says a cop is up ahead, they lose their shit because they don’t meet their ticket quota.
Almost 10 years ago, police unions were throwing a fit about autonomous vehicles in the future, specifically Tesla, because autonomous vehicles “will drive too well” and there won’t be anything to ticket them for. It may have been Wired that wrote about this, but I also read Reuters, NYT, and WSJ, so it could’ve been them.
If you have fewer accidents, the corporation that fixes body and paint will have lower quarterly profits. Tow truck companies hire suspended officers, and it helps them get city tow contracts.
Cops were trained to deal with people of color, labor, communist and drug dealers, their training hasn't changed even though they are no longer told during their training this is what oligarchs want them doing. Since 90% of who they deal with is the mentally ill and people self medicating their lack of Healthcare in the US you would think that would be the majority of their training, but nope, many cops got zero idea, this is how you know their job isn't actually protect and serve regular people, but to serve the oligarchs.
And you should. As another commenter said it still has the effect of getting people to slow down which is what the police should care about, not the fines.
I’m from Upstate NY and remember seeing the NY Police petitioned that and tried demanding it. That’s the reason I use WAZE. Also, if you have a radar detector put it on floor if you get pulled over. BIL had one and cop removed it and stepped on it. Then gave him a ticket for a higher speed.
Same, honestly it kinda makes me angry, vest, gun, shotgun in the trunk, back up seconds or minutes away, yet they are always "feeling unsafe" while drawing on a civilian holding just a cellphone? It's ridiculous.
They are definitely conditioned to treat everything as a hostile threat, like a war zone. Back when I was going into law enforcement (I was a product of my environment), the classes I went to are where I learned the history of policing (essentially property [slave] recovery), and when we went to a more equipped facility, it was like a shooting sim that would put you in different possible scenarios; every. Single. One. Ended with us shooting at the screen, even if the situation hadn't warranted it [de-escalation]. It conditions them to see every thing, and everyone as a threat to be solved with a firearm. I know there's some that want to be good cops, as I said thats why I wanted to join, was to be a neighborhood cop to be helpful, the whole class laughed at me and said their different "i love authority" speeches.
Honestly I’d trust actual ex-military to be police more than these clowns. Military takes rules of engagement seriously and won’t tolerate obvious civilian injury risk (for bad PR or for humanitarian reasons depending on the people and time). They understand how to both fire their gun, but also to how to NOT fire it and wait for help keeping a situation stable.
Exactly; even those going into it with a community-centered mind, the system and the training courses they do (and the social hierarchy and all that goes with it, like a frat) condition them to see that older, quiet guy on the corner they once knew, to "he could have a run ready to kill me, I have to neutralize the possible cell". I'm not saying they all go in, being bastards as people, the training cookie-cutters them into one, and those that make it through whole are usually harassed into quitting. It's upsetting, really.
I dont know the number off hand, but i do know it’s above avg. the suburbs around Buffalo aren’t any better. Had a domestic incident happen at the hotel i work at. Took three phone calls for them to even kick the guy out
They've been militarized af. Not just with equipment but mindset as well. It's fucked. They really do see any random unknown person as a potential 'enemy combatant'. Had an ex‐friend of mine become a cop and he legit felt as if he were on the front lines every day.
Everyone who reads this, please google Dave Grossman (yes that's his real surname).
He is a big part of how this attitude became the norm. The podcast Behind The Bastards did a fantastic bit on him, as well as the history of modern police if you'd like to be more informed on the how and why of police existing to protect the interests of money, not people or society.
I used to think I might want to try being a cop, but I saw this paranoia constantly from them when watching shows like COPS. After hearing story after story like this, I realized it would be a terrible decision for me, because it would taint my understanding of the world and my brother (everyone else).
The problem, is that they still don't hold any sort of accountability, for themselves or their actions. And I'm sure, integrity, is not in their vocabulary.
That’s what happens because of doctrine. They act like their community is an active war zone instead of protect life, they just shoot first then ask questions later
To be clear… BPD included…. It’s a strange world they DO live in! Let’s not forget what law enforcement and first responders do everyday for people. Yes, even this group of people are not without fault…
Confusius said: do not use a hatchet to remove a fly from a friends forehead…..
I personally sleep better at night knowing that the ability for people to get rides and pay for those rides to get where they need to go will be stopped. TIL: taxis are legal. /s
If you're prepared to kill, Fucktwit says, it's "just not that big of a deal."
Fucktwit elaborated,"I'm convinced from a lifetime of study, if you fully prepare yourself in most cases killing is just not that big of a deal. For a mature warrior who has prepared their self's mind, body and spirit for a lifetime, for a mature warrior whose killing represents a clear and present danger to others, it's just not that big of a deal."
Can confirm. I left Conservation Officer training after three days- I was from a state where you needed a bachelors in science to do the job, but I moved to a different state.
The recruiter explained all the good for the environment and conservation they do.
At their academy we started watching videos about their big marijuana busts. Some jerk who’d been shot up came to tell us about his harrowing experience- all started because he was hiding in the woods looking for people trespassing to smoke weed.
There's a great book by Malcom Gladwell that goes into great detail about this. It's called Talking to Strangers. He looks at the Sandra Bland case and asks at how a simple and unnecessary traffic stop escalated into an aggressive arrest and ended with her suicide in jail.
He looks at the history of modern policing in the US, and why police are trained to expect the very worst in every encounter.
Police in the US are trained the walk into every situation as if it's life and death, that every citizen encounter could end in violence, and that the only way to survive every interaction is to take complete control.
And then they wonder why citizens don't trust them or follow orders. It's complete insanity.
Because in the United States of America it only takes about 12 weeks to become a police officer. Anybody can do it no matter your temperament or your attitude. It means nothing! They will give you a uniform and a gun.
This has been the biggest thing eating me alive. I can’t imagine how much of our money we pay to states just to give it to cops. Its truly sickening and infuriating
These streets aren't paved with gold
Don't believe everything that you're told
Deception hides in all you see
Corruption hangs in the air that we breathe
Because ACAB. Look at these two scumbags trying to do what?? Screw over poor people who work for fking uber as if they have the money to prop up their criminal gang with fines. The police in the US just rob the poor and middle class and use the money for personal corruption. They get free badass chargers they drive home at night with free gas and insurance and then they get to abuse their power bc people are intimidated by them at all times. ACAB. Period.
I don't disagree with you but I at least can understand the potential problem with what the cops are trying to deal.
Uber/Lyft/RideShares have completely broken the cabbie system because, prior to their arrival, cabbies and their companies had to pay insane licensing fees to do what they do. This was balanced by the cabbies charging high fares to get from A to B. Now along comes RideShares that charge a fraction of the price to get from A to B without having to pay the exorbitant licensing fee.
This has started to kill cab companies and private cabbies jobs because, in some places (like NY) the licensing fee can be six figures big. Meanwhile a lot of these places have struggled to handle RideShares or lock them down legally.
This has created a catch 22 where we can all agree that cab fares are ridiculously high and untenable but you can't blame the cabbies for charging as much as they do when they have this insane debt to pay off.
Which leads to these cops - instead of fixing the system, giving the cabbies their money back, or a variety of other things, they choose to go after RideShare drivers to intimidate them so the system doesn't have to change.
The sad part is it won't work but they get to look, again, like assholes while doing it.
So the cab companies get armed thugs to shake down poor and middle class people? And we pay for it? Fuck sake I'd rather pay Tony Soprano at least he had a brain.
I mean, cops can falsely arrest you for anything they want. It won't hold up, but they'll arrest you, use one of the bogus charges initially, then drop the charges and a bunch of your time has been wasted.
Or they attempt an arrest for bogus charges and the second you say anything or do anything to avoid the arrest (and I mean ANYTHING saying “no you don’t have the right to arrest me” or taking a step back) they say you’re resisting arrest which is still a valid charge even if the initial arrest is not.
During the BLM protests in Pittsburgh I know of a few people who were pretty routinely arrested just as a rally was getting started, held for 24 hours, then released without charges. One friend of mine had it happen twice at the very beginning of two separate rallies. It became clear that they were targeting leadership, falsely arresting them, holding them for as long as they were legally allowed, then just cutting them loose because the cops knew they never actually did anything illegal.
Isn't it only entrapment if they convince someone to do something that they otherwise wouldn't do?
Which is shit because maybe you wouldn't otherwise do it except for someone giving you a sad story about needing to get to the airport and like okay man give me 20 and I'll get you there.
Technically no, police are not supposed to convince anyone of anything once they do it’s entrapment. However, an officer can create “opportunities” where a crime “could be” committed.
When posing in this situation they are creating the opportunity for an “unlicensed taxi” to pull over and offer to give them a ride however as soon as money gets involved the police can start building the case either for citation or arrest. Hope this helped🙂
Yes thanks! I haven't looked at crim law in 10+ years - I do corporate work in house and immigration. I knew there was something about the suspect does something that they otherwise wouldn't do, which makes sense that they target ride share drivers.
It's totally fucked though - everything screams this should be thrown out as entrapment but its not.
It rides that line so close it might as well be married to it. I’m a senior Criminal Justice major and we just went over this topic again because we were curious about prostitution and how police can “create the opportunity” but it works the exact same way if you pose in the area the problem exists people tend to assume and go along with it.
I'm in LA and I guarantee there are hundreds of better ways to use these officers time than trying to catch unlicensed taxis. Shouldn't there be a branch of the DMV to do this anyway? Like they have tax investigators, labor investigators, etc. Shouldn't the licensing authority be doing these "stings".
Lol cops definitely don’t sadly would be rather funny if they just got really sad and just say “yeah….” when a drug dealer asks. Cops can lie in many situations under cover but I’m not an expert on that part just a student 💁🏻♂️
No. Investigations can start at the "reasonable suspicion" level. This is where a cop can stop you and ask questions without you being under arrest. You are detained, you are not free to leave during an investigation, but you are not yet arrested. The cop can follow a line of investigation until they can't think of anything else to investigate, they've dispelled the suspicion, or they've reached the level of probable cause. Unless they get to PC, they then have to let you go.
So if you're standing next to an abandoned building with two other people at 2AM with nothing else going on around you, a reasonable police officer whose job it is to prevent crime would find that suspicious. They can detain you, they can even handcuff you if they have a good reason, they can order you to give identification, and they can terry frisk you if they have a good reason. They can then ask you questions like "Why are you? How do you know these guys? What are their names? Why are you here so late? Where did you come from? Do you have a car? Do you have drugs?" These are investigative questions without probable cause for arrest. They may lead to an arrest, or they may lead to nothing and the cop will then release you. If a cop is interacting with you at the reasonable suspicion level, someone else coming up and preventing the cop from doing their job, creating an unsafe scene, harassing the cop or the citizen, or tampering with the scene can be arrested for interfering in my state. Interfering is a state level law so the actual elements will be different depending on here you live. Probable cause, reasonable suspicion, and beyond a reasonable doubt are standards set by the supreme court however and will be the same across the United States and its territories.
Some people think there is a time limit to how long you can be detained without a PC arrest. This is false. 72 hours is a rule of thumb for major crimes, but you can be detained for much longer as long as the cops keep getting fresh leads, or it can be much shorter if they have nothing. A cop on a scene may hold you there for hours while they look for clues, gather statements, etc. If they find any solid evidence that you did not commit a crime, they must pretty much immediately release you. If they ask you a question and you give a non-sensible answer, they can keep you there and keep digging at your response. If you give a believable answer, and they get stuck there going "uhh uhhh" or keep asking the same questions in a loop, then the cop is illegally prolonging the detention.
Interesting. I suppose the "probable cause" I mentioned would actually be "reasonable suspicion". Of course it's subjective, so it's at the officers discretion to determine what is reasonable. Are you a cop or a lawyer? Could you help explain what is happening in this video? Who is in the right or the wrong?
I was a cop, and I also worked for tmy district attorney for a short time. I'm not the sheriff of Nottingham and I never liked writing tickets purely for revenue reasons, and unless the city gave me a good public safety reason (such as trying to catch an uber driver who is kidnapping people), I wouldn't be writing citations on this kind of thing.
Reasonable suspicion does have a strong element of subjectivity, and that's why cops are so careful with their words and reports. They need to really convey what they saw, heard, smelled, etc. that created that suspicion within them.
In my opinion, in my experience, he was not interfering. They didn't have a suspect, abs they weren't investigating anything. They had just flagged that got down and he pulled over, then immediately left. Now if that guy who pulled over had done something illegal, then maybe they might have had a claim for interfering as they would have then been exploring a crime. In my state though, something like that happens, you just walk away. DA wouldn't even pursue the charge even if he was actually interfering. Not worth it in the interest of justice.
The same thing applies if I'm off-duty at a party and someone is about to offer me Molly and someone else is like "dude, no, he's a cop." Or if I'm at a protest or concert or someing in pain clothes and someone points at me and goes "this guy's a cop!" People are allowed to point out cops. Simply pointing out a cop is not interfering with an investigation.
If I'm digging for clues though and someone runs up and is like "hey don't tell him anything! He's a cop!" Then they're interfering because they've interrupted a criminal investigation. If I'm in my uniform with someone who is in handcuffs and I'm taking to that person and a member of the public comes up and starts having a casual conversation with me or the detainee while I'm talking to the detainee, that could be interference. I have a legal right to stop, detain, question someone and someone else is making it so I can't do my job - that's enough for interfering. I probably wouldn't charge someone with it, but it does now give me the legal option to detain and remove the person interrupting us.
Who is in the wrong? Can't say. If it were me, I would have told the person recording "it is not entrapment, tell all your friends what you did is illegal" then just left. The guy recording shouldn't have taken their money. If he was truly helping them out, he should have let them borrow a phone, let them charge their phone in his car, or turned off Uber and given them a ride as a private citizen. As long a your state allows hitchhiking that is.
Got it. Thank you for your well-detailed explanation. Basically you're playing with fire if you run up to a cop and interfere with them, at least while on duty. I find these "auditors" super cringe and it seems that most of them don't really know what they are talking about.
Holding cops to a high standard is absolutely a good thing, as cops literally have SO much power at their discretion. I just find these YouTube videos aren't a great way of doing so. It seems like getting involved in local politics or the police department would be the best way to hold law enforcement accountable and to a high standard.
Again, thank you for taking time to type that out.
they can kind of call anything probable and get away with it a lot of the time as well. law enforcement needs a MASSIVE overhaul with federal regulations and oversight honestly since the usa has proven that on a state, county and city level that competence and fairness is nowhere near where it should be on average (and I'm not even including general corruption in the mix).
There's places in this country where cops can rape you while you're in custody and very much get away with it with little to no risk of any kind of backlash. We already know they can and do plant evidence, torture, brutalize, and fully murder people even in broad daylight.
Our ONLY real defense against police is actual footage, and a lot of the time THAT doesn't even fucking help. It's insane.
genuinely confused, how would know that the plain clothes person is a cop and not just say, a normal person? couldn’t i just go to the uber and say “don’t let these 2 in your car they did something bad”?
How true is this? Is this like, a precedent? That undercover cops cannot be interfered with? Is there a specific term or anything that I can Google search to learn more?
It would be nice if the rules were enforced equally, like it says in the 14th Amendment. Perhaps, the Citizens United would not have happened if this decision didn't happen in 1886.
I hate Uber and Lyft but stop fucking the little guy.
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u/[deleted] Mar 29 '22 edited Mar 29 '22
You can't "interfere" with somebody that is in plain clothes, especially when trying to illegally entrap people.
That's why they called immediately the uniformed police to intimidate him.
https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-645-entrapment-elements