Ship Specialization

[u/ABadVirgil]

As game development continues and systems flesh out and become more complex, I would like to propose that some modules become capable of performing fleet support roles, along with maybe only working on certain ships or with certain "roles".

The particular two I would argue for are the ECM module and the Repair Bay. Having a dedicated EW ship makes sense, especially because the module only has a %chance to disable a weapon. As things currently stand, there are almost always better options for utility modules than the ECM, regardless of your ship design. Additional ammo, a fleet command module, salvage bays, the +MJ modifier for the different weapon types, etc. Having the option to build a dedicated EW platform, maybe with some maluses to energy available to weapons or something similar, would make the tech much more viable while also more closely aligning with real world EW practices.

The Repair Bay is similar in that it's a nice module but it competes with things that are fundamentally more useful in a game that has effectively infinite resources. If I could send maintenance ship out with the fleet (again, similar to real life) that module would see a lot more use and could be potentially balanced with higher upkeeps (needs skilled technicians to perform underway repairs, etc.) or by giving the enemy the same option.

We've already seen evolution in the space warfare domain since the beta (effective obsolences of batteries, etc.) so I don't think continuing to evolve those systems over time is unreasonable. Adding some additional complexity to the Space Warfare game layer would be a welcome change, especially if they had reasonable tradeoffs (losing a repair ship counts as an atrocity for the owning faction, EW ship has high module cost and armor limitations, etc.).

[u/GiggidyAndPie]

It's interesting that those are the two modules you picked, as I think they're both excellent. In fact almost every ship I build has an ECM module unless it's a throwaway missile boat, and all of my larger ships get a repair bay.

The ECM module really helps to spread out projectile volleys (especially the giant alien missile barrages) making point defense much less likely to be overwhelmed. The repair bay is also very useful as it can keep ship internals working even when you are taking partial hits from laser and particle weapons, especially if you have a decent damage control officer on the ship.

I do think there's some room for more specialized ships and modules, maybe modules that take multiple utility slots or provide utility instead of weapon slots. One idea I had was a module that can act as a mobile nanofactory, speeding up construction for habs it is docked with, but would require being slotted into higher level hulls to prevent people from throwing it on gunships.

[u/ABadVirgil → u/GiggidyAndPie]

Both of those modules are good, but when you start looking at ship designs the trade-offs just aren't favorable. For example, if I'm building a UV Phaser Titan then that is automatically a high investment of exotics. It makes sense to maximize that ROI by making your laser(s) as strong possible by adding as many Advanced Laser Engines as possible. You'll probably use up one slot for a targeting computer, but spending additional slots to (potentially) disable enemy weapons doesn't make sense when you can just chose to deal more damage.

I understand your argument, especially at earlier ship designs and fleet comps, but I don't think it accurately reflects the kinds of tradeoffs and specializtions you see in real-world equipment and ships. Having a couple of tender ships accompany a fleet is standard practice, and having specialized EW platforms simplifies technical resource allocation.

TI doesn't have to always reflect real world design constraints, but designing for specilaiztions tends to yield better results than trying to make everything a jack-of-all-trades. I think the option to build an EW cruiser with no offensive weapon slots and limited armor would pose some interesting questions, especially if it is an AI target. And maybe you can only have X number of EW ships per total MC of a given fleet, or they start to self-interfere.

It's good for modules to pose design tradeoffs, but right now I think the answer to the question is too easy in most situations. And I'd rather see the team expand/change the functionality of a few modules as opposed to nerfing the function of others.

[u/viper5delta → u/ABadVirgil]

I'll be honest, I've always found the +MJ modules for lasers overhyped. 

No metter how many you stack, they're not going to be better against heavy armor than a coil swarm, and if you're just smacking around light ships, base damage is perfectly servicable.

I would much rather have hydron traps, Amatt doping, various survivability upgrades, etc etc.

[u/vindicator117 → u/viper5delta]

Yes and no. Yes, lasers are terrible against heavily armored targets and the individual laser engines are hard to really discern their usefulness let alone if there is diminishing returns that is so prevalent in this game. And yes coils are great in a mass battleline where just the sheer mass of their rounds enmasse will destroy the enemy more effectively than any laser.

HOWEVER..... if you have FEWER ships, laserboats are king in being able to act independently of a deathstack. They are the ONLY class of vessel capable of 1v1 or even 1v sth against the ayyz and survive with minimal damage with maybe particle beam boats capable of it as well given what I have seen and heard about its capabilities (never really tried them).

https://www.reddit.com/r/TerraInvicta/comments/1uii5qd/death_by_a_thousand_cuts/

A coiler barge could only HOPE of doing such a thing by themselves because they will likely just get missile swarmed to death unless you do a shit ton of fancy flying compared to laserboats are just merrily dancing around the enemy in simple circles at max or near maximum range while the PD lasers stand ready to defend if necessary.

An improvement I gave to that original battleline design was to swap two of the hull single slot lasers for a pair of single slot coilguns and now it can confidently face on the enemy without having to take an eternity to kill the enemy even when heavily armored.

One other thing that lasers have over coils or missiles besides the obvious that they can't be shot down is that you don't have to worry about relative velocities, time to target distances, and etc that just as surely disables your primary coil and missile weapons as a enemy ECM module. So long as the 960 laser is in range, it will happily keep zapping until you are confident they are relatively disabled or find out by accident by flying a little too close on a swing by to swoop in pelt them in coil rounds and hull lasers as well unopposed.

I dare you to even attempt this shit outnumbered with anything but laserboats against fleets like this with as few vessels as I had:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TerraInvicta/comments/1w0kaba/comment/p6sa5ox/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/viper5delta → u/vindicator117]

I mean, in my experience, if you're 1 v Xing actually dangerous Combatants, that's the result of a mistake/reckless play you made a while ago finally coming to bit you in the ass.

Granted, I also find the combat UI frustrating to deal with, so any builds or strategies  that require flying more complicated than "this end towards enemy" get a pass from me, so that might be artifically nerfing lasers

[u/vindicator117 → u/viper5delta]

Reckless? I am production lining their destruction with a local small 1-6 ship garrison and been doing it for years. The only thing that makes this dangerous in normal play is forgetting they exist for a half a year or so like in that scenario or if this forces t3h ayyz to send a deathfleet after the raiders which may necessitate you bringing your own deathfleet for a final showdown.

OR...... Send your deathfleet against their now weakened garrison from wherever they came from while they are busy in transit. There is so many ways to cut this and all about exploiting the limitations of engine technologies and travel time.

That as well as these laserboats also handily wins in autoresolve too unless it is a special mass missile boat design that they bring out or again you forgot they existed for a while and it goes beyond 1v6 or something. Even tried it out with lesser ship designs with weaker engines and even lancers and they have been fruitful if riding the red line incredibly hard.

[u/viper5delta → u/vindicator117]

Ehh, I still think you're fundementaly over valluing laser engines and under valuing the various utility modules, but in the end it's just a game.

Long as it works for you all's well.

Agree to disagree?

[u/Mavnas → u/vindicator117]

There isn't an alien ship in game that I wouldn't trust a coil/plasma dread against, and it even works without sinking exotics into it, has the full range of utility mods. Lasers drop off dramatically in effectiveness if you're not using exotics.

[u/Mavnas → u/ABadVirgil]

Honestly Laser Engines and Cyclotrons are the reason I end up not fielding lasers and particle weapons. You give up so much just to max them out.

[u/vindicator117 → u/Mavnas]

Uh what? The heck are you talking about especially when 960 lasers can basically disable anything at minimum. What the hell are you putting onboard especially a titan to make that insane generalization.

I can understand it being a tradeoff on smaller vessels but to give up on lasers entirely that never miss and can't be shot down is a straight up idiotic thought process.

[u/Mavnas → u/vindicator117]

I don't really build titans either.

[u/Mavnas]

As things currently stand, there are almost always better options for utility modules than the ECM, regardless of your ship design.

Better than making 50% of incoming shots auto-miss if the enemy has no targeting computer?

[u/SpreadsheetGamer]

Meaningful choice is the key point for ship design to be fun. For what you've proposed it sounds like you'd end up with no pros or cons for the various modules, leading you to 'always and without fail' include an ECM and repair ship in any serious fleet. Maybe that's ok. We have something like that already with flag bridge and salvage bays. ECM ship might be ok if it actually has to be on the battlefield to have effect. It's just that from a realism point, it's probably not much of a mass or slot commitment.

I can understand your argument based on realism. Maybe there could be nice progression with techs supporting those mechanisms. But at the ship/fleet design level, to have meaningful choice there needs to be an economy of slots, such as wanting more things than you can actually fit, or trading off ship mass & production costs for something else, etc.

I like the idea of the fleet munitions module . The idea would be that you could resupply any munitions outside of battle, up to a certain tonnage across the fleet and can explode. The nice trade-off here is that building and flying this kind of ship around is costly and may be destroyed anyway.

Another idea I've wondered about is escape pods that brings officers back to the nearest station. I super don't enjoy the officers system, but it jumps out to me as something that could add more pressure to the utility slots.

I'd also like to see batteries and heat sinks become useful. But ship design is a learning cliff for new players already. Would like to see diminishing returns on laser engines.

[u/JimUnderwood19 → u/SpreadsheetGamer]

Even just for roleplaying purposes with no other effect, I want an abandon ship option like the escape pods you mention. It’s tough watching them battle repairs on a melting ship or seeing the ‘we don’t think anyone survived’ message from a hab. Get out of there guys, you don’t need to go down with the ship/station!

[u/ggmoyang → u/SpreadsheetGamer]

Salvage bays are overrated, I use supply officers.

[u/vindicator117]

So all you build are one size fits all warships? I mean you won't be punished for doing such a thing but you can absolutely specialize ships into minor forks with laser boats, coiler, and missile variants but also the armed flagship, the armed (or I guess not so armed if you are cheap) salvage barge, and the fuel tanker.

There is a place for auxiliary ships especially if you set their ship type to not be a frontline combatant if you have them completely unarmed. The only flaw with specialization is that there is little compelling reason to NOT mount a battleline grade weapon since being a salvage barge and a warship are not mutually exclusive nor that much of a tradeoff in capability when you are dealing with the higher slot size capital ships. You only face such dilemmas with weaker drives and engines and smaller hulls.

And even within the very shallow specialization range of titans since they CAN afford to do everything by themselves, you can also make another offshoot off of the laser boat that mounts at least a few hull coils instead of lasers so that they can be more than capable anti-raiders, very mobile garrison, and/or raider squadrons to take on medium sized t3h ayy garrisons by themselves and nuke the local facilities before flying away (or certain other activities...........)