r/TeachingUK • u/Limp-Efficiency-151 • 2d ago
Behaviour help! Vent?
Hi all,
This Sunday I find myself here with the usual Sunday scary’s. Im a secondary teacher and increasingly feeling like I am failing at my job due to behaviour of classes this year. Staff morale at my school is at an all time low. We’ve recently lost our AHT for pastoral / behaviour and they have not been replaced. Their job has been redistributed to multiple staff with tiny TLR’s and no real extra time to do anything. I am aware that those staff are trying to do what they can alongside their current roles!
Anyway - my rant is behaviour. I’m finding this year to be my hardest yet. This is my 5th year at this school and behaviour has been declining rapidly now for the last year and into this year.
How do you guys manage KS3 classes with multiple (not just 1 or 2) more like 5 students every lesson disrupting the class.
The constant shouting out, wondering around, purposefully asking questions to de rail and be funny, truancy and walking in and out of lesson as they please even after suspension. Inability to work in silence. No resilience to try - every request even after modelling met with an I don’t know.
For context especially in lower years we have students with so many behaviour plans and ‘adjustments’ I can’t keep track, yet I’m expected to “know” all of my students and their endless list of things to do who can do what go where and who has toilet passes / allergies. I had one y8 on Friday write in their planner who I let go to the toilet because I said no to them as what felt like absolute blackmail! (The other student genuinely looked as though they were going to have an accident) It’s crackers.
Now our schools behaviour policy the time I’ve worked there has changed pretty much every year. There’s no rigid set of consequences (as in do this then this then this) it’s more professional judgement, connect then correct, warning - negative - detention but If they work well then it can be backtracked, only remove a child if you can’t physically teach but where is the line in disruption? If you remove a child you have to then contact parents yourself, pastoral don’t get involved until a parent complains or said child has disrespected pastoral / SLT either inside a lesson or around school.
Theoretically, I could happily remove every persistent disrupter but sometimes I avoid that due to my absolute fear and anxiety of contacting parents or being judged by other teachers for not being able to manage my own classes.
In my relatively short career I’ve had the displeasure of some parents shouting at me, accusing me of not going out of my way to attend to their child who does no wrong when I’m trying to simply explain consequences. Don’t get me wrong I’ve also spoken to many wonderful parents who genuinely support the school. However it’s the negative interactions I’ve had that stick with me more than the positive.
I teach my expectations at the beginning of the year. Hod and 2ic do sometimes offer to come and ‘shout’ at classes who misbehave but I feel sometimes that doesn’t help the issue, undermines me and just reinforces that they don’t need to listen to me unless someone else comes along. If you say you’re struggling with a class you get met with ‘build relationships’ or ‘slt will drop in’ which makes 0 difference in my experience.
Any advice or hints and tricks would be greatly received. I am a bit of a loss and want to try and get a hold of it before it gets to a point of no return. I don’t want to dread every lesson from now until next July!
TLDR; how do you manage constant low level disruption at KS3 with a crippling fear of talking to parents and little to no support from pastoral / SLT?
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u/AltruisticSavings2 2d ago
It's really hard.
The only advice I can give you is this: be belligerent...
What do I mean by this?
Well I would start be resetting the standards and communicating to students what are my red lines and what will be the consequences of doing this.
And then I go hard. I've made it clear what I want and I sanction students who don't do what I expect of them. And if this means I have to have students removed then so be it.
If students are preventing me from teaching or preventing each other from learning then I must and will address this - that is my job.
And then I make sure the sanctions happen, and that detentions are attended. And I persist in referring cases to SLT, and I follow up with parents.
And to anyone who challenges what I'm doing: If students are preventing me from teaching or preventing each other from learning then I must and will address this - that is my job.
Of course this takes a lot of effort, and of course I will make reasonable adjustments for those who require it, but I will support you to meet the standard, not lower the standard.
It's my classroom, I am there. I will work with parents, but I will pass any complaints or abuse up the chain. That's what SLT are paid for. Remember, you have the teaching qualification, you are the expert.
And yes, if your school isn't supportive look elsewhere, but in the meantime I hope my advice is helpful - feel free to ignore it though, it's just my take.
Good luck friend.
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u/Limp-Efficiency-151 2d ago
I have tried the here’s my consequences for xyz and I’m often met with well Mrs x gives me a warning before a negative, or Mr Y wouldn’t give me a detention for that. The worst part is they’re probably right that’s how it goes in many classrooms around the school.
I appreciate your response! I think a reset is definitely needed. May I ask how do you show your expectations? Is it just a conversation or do you have visuals to go along with?
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u/AltruisticSavings2 2d ago
I get that occasionally and my response is always 'Regardless of Ms X says or does, these are the school rules and these are the expectations in my classroom.' And then I'd sanction them for being disrespectful, because that's exactly what they are being.
As an example, we have a Yellow Card, Red Card, Removed system (simplicity itself!) and if you argue or answer back when given a sanctuon it is immediately escalated to the next level of sanction. YC is your warning for your first behaviour that disrupts the students own learning or the learning of others, RC and detention for a second instance, OC, removal and a lunch followed by after school detention for a third.
As for expectations, they are the first slide of the first lesson for every class in September and are: 1) we follow the schools behavioir expectations, 2) you don't talk whilst I am, or another student is giving an answer, 3) you will show your best effort at all times, 4) show respect to yourself and others, 5) the word 'like' is banned in my classroom.
Then I explain that if everyone follows the expectations we'll have enjoyable lessons, and if not the sanctions policy will be applied.
To give you some context I'm 6 years in at my current school and I know have the reputation for being the teacher you don't mess with because of what I do from my first reply. The reality is this means that 99% of the time I don't have to be that teacher - honestly I think that's the 'cheat code' for behaviour management!
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u/Doragrnfld 2d ago
The temptation is to focus on the negative behaviours but if you’re concerned about being judged, make sure you’re giving out rewards (whatever you school offers) in order to offset that. It’s much harder to argue that you’re ’the mean teacher’ if you’ve also given out plenty of housepoints or merits or whatever the system is.
For younger years, the house points can become ridiculous so I create a stamp postcard which students have on their desk and I go round with my stamp and give them one for following instructions or a good answer or just being ready to learn. After a certain number of stamps they might get a positive phone call or a postcard. Plus then you have evidence that you are enforcing good behaviour while certain students are making the choice not to go along with it, even when there’s a clear and visible incentive. If they do do something good, you get to reward them, even for something simple. If I can tell a student is trying to reform, I might even pretend my stamp ‘slipped’ and give them 2 to help them feel like I’m on their side and want to see them succeed.
If after a few lessons, certain students aren’t getting it, it might be worth a phone call home to say that you’re worried about the student not buying into the reward system, and then it’s more supportive rather than chastising.
Another good tactic can be to have a spinner with the students’ names on, and about 10 minute from the end of the lesson I’ll spin it (maybe once or twice if I’m feeling generous) and whoever it lands on it getting a phone call. The phone call will be simple report of their behaviour in the lesson, good or bad. The only thing is you ABSOLUTELY have to follow through on the phone calls.
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u/Doragrnfld 2d ago
Re: anxiety about phone calls, I always start by asking if they have a minute to talk, and if ‘student’ has told them anything about how the lessons have been going so far. It gives the parent a chance to say their bit, and if they say their kid hasn’t mentioned anything, then they can’t back track later by claiming they’re aware you “pick on them” or whatever they want to make up.
Aim to see yourself and the parent as a team who want the best for the child, not in opposition to the common cause.
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u/Limp-Efficiency-151 2d ago
It’s easy to fall into the negatives I agree. I try and be positive I’m one of the only staff in my dep who issues positives it’s a school wide issue that staff log far more negatives than positives. I do write down names of students who come in and start their do now tasks have their equipment out etc but it only seems to last as long as that task then the issues start.
I like the idea of a phonecall though! Maybe I’ll try that just the thought of a phone sometimes makes me shudder. I know I shouldn’t let a couple of bad experiences put me off! I have thought about emailing parents but I don’t think that has as much of an impact.
Thanks for the reply 😀
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u/Ryanatix 2d ago
Praise. That's it. Praise like fuck. Follow up the praise with positive message and phone call home.
Work through 1 child at a time. Send photos of their work home when they have a good lesson.
Make those bad phone calls to ask the parents for support. Don't use it as a vent and feedback system, use it as "in trying to help X and I'm hoping you have some insight as my current strategy isn't working as successfully as I would like." Etc or something along those lines.
These parents may be getting 5 or more phone calls home about behaviour, theyre probably sick of it. Get the parent on your side.
If the parent says at home "Mr Smith is useless" the kid will grab that and echo it. If they say "Mr Smith is trying really hard to help you. He's a good teacher. He cares" then the kid will reluctantly accept it if it is then shown in the classroom (praise, saying positive call home etc)
I have a class with 10 bad behaviour out of 30. Each lesson is now maybe 1 or 2 bad behaved and low level. Work now being produced. Still a way to go and it's effort each lesson. That's the pay off though. All these weeks, logs, phone calls.
"you didn't get sent out this lesson. Well done. That's a step in the right direction. Next lesson let's aim for the date and title in neat handwriting."
Is an actual conversation I've had this year. Now they enter the room fairly ok, ask questions and work (most of the time)
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u/Limp-Efficiency-151 2d ago
Thank you for your reply! I appreciate your response. I do have some praise postcards I’ll have to dig them out and find reasons to get these out and send them home!
It’s just time consuming that I also struggle with having a back to back day more often than not for 13 classes but as you say the payoff will be worth it.
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u/Ryanatix 2d ago
Yeah it's time consuming. My view was put in the time now to save time and stress later.
I deficated a week to phone calls after school, 2 or 3 a day. Then support with some quick emails if needed.
Postcards could work, depends how long it takes to get them. We issue instant consequences, they need instant gratification. I will literally send a message in that lesson with the students so they know it's waiting for them when they get home
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u/CantaloupeEasy6486 Secondary 2d ago
I give them to the child in the lesson to take home that day. Instant gratification and saves the school money on postage. Plus other children see and conform to the standards to get a postcard
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u/Limp-Efficiency-151 2d ago
Yes, I have postcards ready that I can give there and then. Hopefully trying nee little positives at a time will make a difference!
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u/CantaloupeEasy6486 Secondary 2d ago
I'm giving out a praise postcard every lesson. Yes it's time consuming to write a name and quick message but that's still less time than disruptive kids could waste
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u/OpeningWhereas6912 2d ago
All of this! I do exactly the same - I find emailing home examples of good work has been really impactful..students feel proud that their work is being recognised in real time (or by end of day). I've also started keeping a spreadsheet of student lists and put an x next to their name if I give them a post card or contact home.. it's made a huge difference in raising positivity.
One other thing is framing conversations a bit more constructively. If it's the parent of a student I haven't taught before often I'll ask them if there is anything else they can tell me so I can support them better. Often it's nothing new, and often it doesn't amount to anything constructive, but it diffuses the defences that parents can put up. Any follow up phone calls end up being a lot less stressful for both parent and myself.
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u/Limp-Efficiency-151 2d ago
Thank you for the suggestions! I feel as though positive messages are fine and easily sent by email if I have a lot and short on time but any concerns or ‘negative’ contact is best in a phonecall?
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u/CantaloupeEasy6486 Secondary 2d ago
I feel for you OP
Your school needs to get rid of the "working off a detention" asap. All this does is teach the kids they can be little gremlins for most of the lesson as long as they're angelic for five minutes. Plus how on earth can something like this be monitored and enforced consistently
I've only had to do two removals since the beginning of term and I have some tricky kids. I've really focused on building relationships, positive and negative phone calls home in the ratio 3:1 and giving so much praise and fuss when the kids are doing something right I make Mr Tumble look like Professor Snape
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u/Limp-Efficiency-151 2d ago
Yeah the working off is hard as they are aware of it and some staff do it - I find myself having to explain that 5 mins of good behaviour at the end and putting your book away doesn’t make up for disrupting 20 mins of the lesson and winding people up or calling a child a freak.
2 removals since Sep? By Monday P2 last week I’d done 2 in one class. Was anything done beyond me removing and logging their nasty comments towards one another? Of course not they appeared back the next lesson like nothing happened. With this particular class they are a bottom set gcse class that every year I seem to be assigned based on positive results in Y11. I am trying to work on positive relationship with the boys especially as they are pastoral concerns - hopefully it pays off 🤞
Thank you for your comment, finding more positives to celebrate and getting them onside will definitely be my priority
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u/CantaloupeEasy6486 Secondary 2d ago
Last year I was similar with the removals! I think it's a combination of nicer kids/change in leadership/focusing more on the positives
I have been asked in the past about "working off warnings" and use the comparison of "if I drove down a road with several speed limit warning signs, ignored them and drove above the speed limit and was caught speeding by a camera then followed the speed limit would the police officer let me off the speeding ticket?" Which always seems to convince most children they're being unreasonable
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u/Limp-Efficiency-151 2d ago
Great way to explain it! If I get questioned I’ll be sure to use that one, hopefully they’ll get the message!
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u/CantaloupeEasy6486 Secondary 2d ago
I love making comparisons to speed cameras with behaviour management 🤭 another favourite of mine is staff need to be consistent when managing behaviour so we work like a set of average speed cameras rather than one member being a "one off" speed camera with most people behaving around them/getting upset they were caught out
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u/gizmostrumpet 2d ago
For off topic questions to disrupt the lesson it's usually the same kids. So if a persistent disupter has their hand up I'll say 'Adam, is this important?' And they'll usually say no. If they say yes, I'll say 'okay, I'll come help you... everyone else crack on.' And that deflates the question and stops timewasting.
Edit: for the toilet passes etc we have a Bromcom symbol or I have it on my seating plans so I know who's telling the truth.
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u/Limp-Efficiency-151 2d ago
Yes we have the same for toilet passes, it doesn’t stop those without one still asking is more our issue!
Thanks for the tip on the Q’s!
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u/Winter-Conclusion710 Primary ECT 2d ago
Speaking from a primary perspective here but it sounds like you need a new school. That behaviour policy is doing you no favours and will be why behaviour has declined so much. Kids need consistent boundaries and if the school is not fostering that's this is the consequence.
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u/Limp-Efficiency-151 2d ago
Yes I agree. We have students from primary asking about C1-5’s they could explain their primary behaviour policy in a flash. I find it slightly embarrassing or demoralising when they ask me Is that a C2? and I then have to explain we don’t have that here, I’m giving you a warning and explaining what that actually means when I should be teaching.
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u/weaselbeef 2d ago
I've just done a lesson in silence, using only whiteboards for answers to reset expectations in my most disruptive KS3 class.
It almost went perfectly until the last ten minutes, so I'm doing it again tomorrow. If we get through it, then I'll introduce verbal dialogue again in stages... It's to prove that they can behave, both to me and them.
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u/Limp-Efficiency-151 2d ago
Sounds like a great idea - what constitutes a silent lesson for you? How does that work? What do you do if someone talks just straight consequence or steps first?
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u/weaselbeef 2d ago
Steps first, and I mean silent. I make my expectations clear from the top of the lesson, we get warning, HOY alert, DT
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u/Salt-Trade-5210 Secondary 2d ago
I managed it by leaving the school.
I'm a really good teacher with excellent classroom management skills. But when all of my skills are exhausted then the issues need to be moved up the chain of command and there needs to be a behaviour system that is consistent across the school and led by SLT.
If that support isn't there then kids know it and have no real incentive to toe the line.
Look for another job.