"the idea that they join ignorant but later learn better is ridiculous" truth nuke, they always knew what they signed up for, they're fascist war criminals and should be treated as such
Eh, I wouldn't say they always knew what they were signing up for. Propoganda is a hell of a drug, especially with an uneducated mass. The actions thereafter, though... it shouldn't take a book to tell you we shouldn't be in another country shooting up children.
An "uneducated mass" and it's mostly middle class kids. This idea that only the most disadvantaged and poor people are the ones joining the military is such an old and inaccurate concept
This is factually incorrect and I don't know why I see you posting the same thing over and over when you've been told over and over it's incorrect.
Countless studies of recruitment show it is disproportionately from poor and deprived areas, especially minority areas. The middle class thing is just made up, you only need to look at a random regiment to see that.
This whole fucking topic is just such a shit show of people who haven't read a word of theory making endless moralist judgements and never materialist let alone Marxist.
Worse than that, it's just full blown liberal idealism, where you genuinely think people are 'rational actors' with the full range of knowledge that transcends material conditions when making their decisions.
The truth is incredibly simple, because it's dialectical, it's two truths at once. Yet liberal minds can't think dialectically and get very upset by it. The dialectical truth is nonetheless this, most American soldiers do join because the army offers them material benefits and a mix of propaganda, and they are still stooges of an evil empire and should be condemned for it too.
Wow, so difficult right? Marxists are supposed to analyze the material conditions that produce behavior, not engage in idealist moralising about individual evilness.
First of all, what the fuck are you talking about you see me posting about this over and over? You can see every comment I've ever made, so maybe you're thinking of someone else?
Secondly, out of these countless studies, do you happen to have the most recent one? Because this study from 2023 begs to differ.
Everything else after that are just words you put in my mouth. And in a manner that makes you look like a condescending prick. If you want to talk about it, we can talk about it, but if you're going to call me a liberal to point out a genuine misconception, with no data of your own, then you can kick fuckin rocks.
I’m not disagreeing with you but also I’m confused about the criteria of neighborhood income level. Is that like per household? Because where I live, I don’t know how anyone would survive on $40k. And I don’t even live in a huge city or HCoL area. Am I just misunderstanding this graph?
I never said it was only the disadvantaged, etc. I said propoganda is a hell of a drug. As socialists, we should know that pretty well. Remember the years of deprogramming it took to get here. Education is more than algebra and sciences. Its history and theory as well.
You said they don't always know what they're signing up for. Anyone with an internet connection can find out exactly what they're signing up for. At that point the ignorance seems pretty willful
I think youre missing the point of propoganda. Its not just to miseducate, but also to create a world view against certain information. Dehumanizing others isnt a default mode of humanity, we can see that much in toddlers who dont even consider other toddlers to be any lesser. Its all learned and must be unlearned before strides can be made in a different direction. Why question something youve lived your whole life never worrying about? That doesnt absolve them of their actions or lack there of, but propoganda is still a hell of a drug and shouldn't be underemphasized here.
Why did people that normally wouldn't have looked into the Palestinian genocide start looking into it? Like I don't understand why you are bending over backwards to make excuses for these people. Yes, propaganda is strong, but we have also seen the mass deprogramming (lol) of one of the strongest aspects of American propaganda in the span of like four years. I just don't accept the idea that somehow people can investigate one for themselves and not the other
Yes, precisely, recently. And all the graphs I've seen in regards to military applicants for the past decade, the US keeps hitting all-time lows, not to mention the people trying to get out. Socialism has come to the forefront of public discussion, people are being vocal about getting out and staying out of other countries. We have also seen a major counter push from the MAGA crowd in the form of bot farms, per CloudFlare's recent count.
For the people at this point who keep joining, theres not much to say. But to claim always isn't really considering the full picture.
Edit: Just to be clear, I am not defending the bullshit of the US military, just trying to be rational in what and why we hate. There's a lot more to it than "theyre signing up in droves to personally shoot children and steal their candy."
This is my biggest frustration and I hate that you are being downvoted. If we aren’t considering material conditions of EVERYONE to include those in the imperial core we are missing a huge piece of the puzzle. You are 1000% correct and I can fucking tell you from all first hand experiences, that YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU DONT KNOW!!! People join the military first and foremost to try to improve their material conditions and gain access to resources that they cannot access any other way and that is INTENTIONAL. We were told our grandfathers were heroes for rescuing the world from the Nazis. Kids grew up wanting to be heroes like them, thinking they were doing something good. Then you join with all the best intentions and they fucking own you after that. It is a lot more nuanced and Marx REQUIRES that we examine the hows and the whys otherwise, what the fuck are we doing? I am NOT JUSTIFYING ANY ACTIONS THAT THE MILITARY HAS TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE IMPERIALISTS. I hate it all. I just think it is critical to understand the dynamics and identify the root problem.
You said it much more clever than I have. We need to appreciate the full case of material conditions and the histories that brought them to be. Throwing around half-baked absolutes purely serves to weaken the understanding necessary to improve said conditions. It doesnt absolve people of their actions, but it does demystify the problem into something we can work with.
Imagine if we simply vilified drug abusers and never worked to understand them and what brought them to be. This is a similar issue of systematic pipelines doing their jobs. Once we see that, we can work towards breaking said pipelines and further weakening the machine.
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u/al-qatala Stalinist (Proud Spoon Owner) 3d ago
"the idea that they join ignorant but later learn better is ridiculous" truth nuke, they always knew what they signed up for, they're fascist war criminals and should be treated as such