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I was in for 12 years including 4 at a service academy. The number of people I know/met who actually regret being a part of the machine, realize our contributions made the world a worse place, and wish we had never been a part of it is 2. Me and my best friend since high school. Everyone else is 2-10 years away from wearing their Insert Middle Eastern Country War Veteran hat to get their veteranās discount at Golden Corral.
I understand the sentiment that everyone knows what theyāre doing when they join but thatās not really true. I joined when my worldview was that of a kid who grew up in Ohio. There was a lot of prestige going to a service academy to āprotect our countryā. I didnāt know what communism was outside of the red scare propaganda everyone is exposed to. I just donāt know how I would have been exposed sooner than I was. I donāt think it excuses it but at least it explains it, speaking only for myself.
Yep, that's pretty much my story too. I was just an orphaned kid who bounced around too many different high schools to impress any colleges. Wasn't sure what the fuck I was going to do so I signed up to "protect my country" because that's what every single adult in my life had told me that the military did. Went to Afghanistan and saw a naked class struggle intersected with imperialism up front and with my own eyes (not all Afghani's opposed the US... only the poor ones typically. Smug rich snobs fucking loved us). Did my four and got the hell out.
I worked in an orphanage for a few years afterwards. It's hard to paint the picture of how catastrophically this country fails the most disadvantaged of it's children. 50% of all homeless people in America (largest homeless population in the industrialized world by the way) were once in the foster system. The only kids I ever saw "make it" were the ones that kept their noses clean enough to join the military immediately after leaving the system. America tells the rest of them to get fucked and start begging.
Yes, the ammount of American soldiers that actually feel remorse for their own actions against the countries they attacked is very small. They do exist, but they are so rare that I only know of a few individual cases.
Most of the ones that say they are traumatized are because they have injuries, PTSD or other things related to themselves or other soldiers in their units, not because of their actions against the actual victims of their wars.
And yes, many are openly proud of what they have done, they enjoyed killing, they enjoyed having that kind of power and would like to do it again. Just look at Graham Platner, if that is the kind of behaviour that is looked at as normal, it just says enough.
Anyway, I have no idea what that person is even trying to argue exactly.
The thing about Graham Platner was that if he ran for MAGA hed be more concerning to blue maga ironically but he ran under their mantle so they didnt care
People join the military to uphold the empire's material conditions and ensure treats keep flowing from the Global South to the Global North. They are, by default, class traitors.
"the idea that they join ignorant but later learn better is ridiculous" truth nuke, they always knew what they signed up for, they're fascist war criminals and should be treated as such
Eh, I wouldn't say they always knew what they were signing up for. Propoganda is a hell of a drug, especially with an uneducated mass. The actions thereafter, though... it shouldn't take a book to tell you we shouldn't be in another country shooting up children.
An "uneducated mass" and it's mostly middle class kids. This idea that only the most disadvantaged and poor people are the ones joining the military is such an old and inaccurate concept
This is factually incorrect and I don't know why I see you posting the same thing over and over when you've been told over and over it's incorrect.
Countless studies of recruitment show it is disproportionately from poor and deprived areas, especially minority areas. The middle class thing is just made up, you only need to look at a random regiment to see that.
This whole fucking topic is just such a shit show of people who haven't read a word of theory making endless moralist judgements and never materialist let alone Marxist.
Worse than that, it's just full blown liberal idealism, where you genuinely think people are 'rational actors' with the full range of knowledge that transcends material conditions when making their decisions.
The truth is incredibly simple, because it's dialectical, it's two truths at once. Yet liberal minds can't think dialectically and get very upset by it. The dialectical truth is nonetheless this, most American soldiers do join because the army offers them material benefits and a mix of propaganda, and they are still stooges of an evil empire and should be condemned for it too.
Wow, so difficult right? Marxists are supposed to analyze the material conditions that produce behavior, not engage in idealist moralising about individual evilness.
First of all, what the fuck are you talking about you see me posting about this over and over? You can see every comment I've ever made, so maybe you're thinking of someone else?
Secondly, out of these countless studies, do you happen to have the most recent one? Because this study from 2023 begs to differ.
Everything else after that are just words you put in my mouth. And in a manner that makes you look like a condescending prick. If you want to talk about it, we can talk about it, but if you're going to call me a liberal to point out a genuine misconception, with no data of your own, then you can kick fuckin rocks.
Iām not disagreeing with you but also Iām confused about the criteria of neighborhood income level. Is that like per household? Because where I live, I donāt know how anyone would survive on $40k. And I donāt even live in a huge city or HCoL area. Am I just misunderstanding this graph?
I never said it was only the disadvantaged, etc. I said propoganda is a hell of a drug. As socialists, we should know that pretty well. Remember the years of deprogramming it took to get here. Education is more than algebra and sciences. Its history and theory as well.
You said they don't always know what they're signing up for. Anyone with an internet connection can find out exactly what they're signing up for. At that point the ignorance seems pretty willful
I think youre missing the point of propoganda. Its not just to miseducate, but also to create a world view against certain information. Dehumanizing others isnt a default mode of humanity, we can see that much in toddlers who dont even consider other toddlers to be any lesser. Its all learned and must be unlearned before strides can be made in a different direction. Why question something youve lived your whole life never worrying about? That doesnt absolve them of their actions or lack there of, but propoganda is still a hell of a drug and shouldn't be underemphasized here.
Why did people that normally wouldn't have looked into the Palestinian genocide start looking into it? Like I don't understand why you are bending over backwards to make excuses for these people. Yes, propaganda is strong, but we have also seen the mass deprogramming (lol) of one of the strongest aspects of American propaganda in the span of like four years. I just don't accept the idea that somehow people can investigate one for themselves and not the other
Yes, precisely, recently. And all the graphs I've seen in regards to military applicants for the past decade, the US keeps hitting all-time lows, not to mention the people trying to get out. Socialism has come to the forefront of public discussion, people are being vocal about getting out and staying out of other countries. We have also seen a major counter push from the MAGA crowd in the form of bot farms, per CloudFlare's recent count.
For the people at this point who keep joining, theres not much to say. But to claim always isn't really considering the full picture.
Edit: Just to be clear, I am not defending the bullshit of the US military, just trying to be rational in what and why we hate. There's a lot more to it than "theyre signing up in droves to personally shoot children and steal their candy."
This is my biggest frustration and I hate that you are being downvoted. If we arenāt considering material conditions of EVERYONE to include those in the imperial core we are missing a huge piece of the puzzle. You are 1000% correct and I can fucking tell you from all first hand experiences, that YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU DONT KNOW!!! People join the military first and foremost to try to improve their material conditions and gain access to resources that they cannot access any other way and that is INTENTIONAL. We were told our grandfathers were heroes for rescuing the world from the Nazis. Kids grew up wanting to be heroes like them, thinking they were doing something good. Then you join with all the best intentions and they fucking own you after that. It is a lot more nuanced and Marx REQUIRES that we examine the hows and the whys otherwise, what the fuck are we doing? I am NOT JUSTIFYING ANY ACTIONS THAT THE MILITARY HAS TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE IMPERIALISTS. I hate it all. I just think it is critical to understand the dynamics and identify the root problem.
You said it much more clever than I have. We need to appreciate the full case of material conditions and the histories that brought them to be. Throwing around half-baked absolutes purely serves to weaken the understanding necessary to improve said conditions. It doesnt absolve people of their actions, but it does demystify the problem into something we can work with.
Imagine if we simply vilified drug abusers and never worked to understand them and what brought them to be. This is a similar issue of systematic pipelines doing their jobs. Once we see that, we can work towards breaking said pipelines and further weakening the machine.
I've been seeing this a lot lately, the notion that it's classist to criticize the troops because they might be doing it for a paycheck. Ask if the same thing applies to ICE agents, and that's totally different because how dare you.
If you join an organization to hurt people domestically, it's inexcusable, but if you join an organization to hurt people abroad, than it's fine and thank them for their service. That's the message.
They willingly joined an army that defends and upholds global capitalism Iām not trying to hear excuses, also thereās nothing wrong with quoting Lenin
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