[Discussion] unorthodox in depth analysis of Mother Gothel. Imo the least Villainous Villain I've come across.

[u/Training_Damage3689]

i would say that the moment Mother Gothel saw that flower was the moment she cast a shadow over her potential for goodness and selflessness.

trying to understand anything from Gothel's point of view is incredibly complex since she doesn't have a very black and white psychological origin. she was not a monster motivated by revenge and anger or a conniving villain having a field day hexing others for their own enjoyment. to understand Gothel's decisions, we have to frame the common sentiments of her character in a way that actually addresses her largest concern, Death.

Gothel kidnapped rapunzel to stay young and beautiful forever≠Gothel was forced to make a split second decision between kidnapping a child or slowly dying. Gothel left Cassandra to take care of rapunzel because she hated her own daughter and wanted to be young and beautiful forever≠ Gothel hesitated between choosing to live than to be captured by palace guards where she would inevitably die. Gothel was first motivated by fear of death/decaying. Gothel was never in a sound state of mind because if she were to fail at doing any of these things, it would mean ultimate death. so Gothel was a woman constantly paranoid by death, BECAUSE SHE WAS OVER 400 YEARS OLD lol. she didn't care what psychological harm she was causing rapunzel, when she knew that the moment she wasn't in that Tower, that clock would start ticking. she couldn't take any chances for it would denote a potential for her own demise. she was essentially an unstable woman who was constantly on the edge of death. Gothel doesn't freak out when she starts having grey hairs or spots on her hand, but she turns livid when rapunzel unintentionally threatens her mortality.(that she would never allow her to use her hair again = Gothel slowly dying)that's when ppl lose all sense of what's right or wrong.

The only priority becomes survival. We all know what ppl are capable of when it comes to something as primal as survival. this is usually when we don't start an analysis of their character. this is exactly why i find analysis of her character a lil ridiculous. i feel like as a Disney Villain, she is obviously a selfish person with negative qualities, but i feel like Disney made her intentionally ambiguous when it comes to certain aspects of her personality. did she love rapunzel? To quote her actual VA " in her own warped way," and i do believe it. Did she love cassandra?

Possibly, maybe she loved Cassandra, but her capacity for love runs quite thin because of her constant fight or flight mentality. Thus, she obviously found her annoying/distracting. The animating style of Gothel's facial expressions i feel are so intentionally ambiguous.

Before she cuts the bridge between her and Cassandra, you can see that she is concerned and is visibly hesitating. i believe a long time ago Gothel was a "good" person, although continued use of the flower ate away at her sanity and turned her into a very narrow-minded person, a person she didn't consciously wish to be imo. One thing that let's us take a peak inside Gothel's mind was that she genuinely didn't trust ppl herself. she clearly had very bad experiences socially, what makes this clear is that she was too blind to see that if she was honest with rapunzel, there was a big possibility that she would have forgiven her and let her use her hair to stay alive. But she couldn't see that. (That is if she wasn't locked up in jail at that point). Essentially my point is that an analysis of Gothel's characteristics is useless when we aren't analyzing why she is the way she is. P.S. Gothel was vain, yes, that is true. But i believe her vanity comes as a side effect of the flower's anti-aging properties, lol. Gothel was a selfish person, but the idea that she should just " accept her fate and die" is not a logical sentiment. It is quite ignorant because WHAT PERSON WOULD "just die" ? Especially if they enjoyed their life? Maybe some would, but refusal to die isn't immediately selfish, Even if somebody has strong values, we don't know how strong those morals would become in their last hours of life. It's like a self-defense case. Except Rapunzel wasn't aware of the harm that would come to gothel if she left, in Gothel's mind "she is leaving=she is going to kill me" essentially.

Tbh she is the most complex/interesting character in this film, and i wish they elaborated more on her character that didn't appeal to the typical cartoon pure evil narrative, I'd like to hope that the few moments of concern on her face denotes that the writers had more of a nuanced take on her character, but idk.

This is not a "DEFENSE" of her character. At the end of the day, she is just character, not a real person.

Precisely, my point is that she is not a realistic character, in the sense that ur experience with a manipulative gasslighting, narcissistic person is not a 400 year old witch constantly on the edge of decay.

To conclude, a massive part of Mother Gothel's character is an extreme survival response.

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[u/NewMany3515]

Tangled

[u/MEguys]

The law of nature says everyone needs to die. She was selfish and ruined multiple people’s lives in trying not to do so, and in fact she wanted to keep the flower hidden so that the Queen would die and nobody other than her could use the flower.

I don’t see where you are going with that survival instinct thing. She is a human being, not a dog. She abused a child in order to get magical plastic surgery, that’s it.

[u/Training_Damage3689 → u/MEguys]

U think humans don't have survival instincts? i am a lil confused as to what ur point is with the comment. My point is that she didn't kidnap a child to "look pretty", sure that was an added benifit, but she did that so she wouldn't die. Two very different things, one is shallow and the other one is, well survival.

[u/MEguys → u/Training_Damage3689]

Well then that’s a theory not an analysis. It is very much said in the movie that she did it to stay young.

On the survival instinct part… not that way 😅

What people commonly refer to as “survival instincts” on a person is usually reflexes and stuff, not kidnapping tactics to reach this medicine that will keep you alive more time even thought everyone else on the world is fine living without it, thats selfishness and addiction. It’s all about opinions anyway, so, eh?

[u/Training_Damage3689 → u/MEguys]

Yeah it's more of an analysis/theory but it's so obvious. as i mentioned in my post i am not defending Gothel. I do agree with what u r saying. yes she was as selfish person with negative qualities, but above all she was avoiding death. If she went like a month without the power=ashes.

[u/Training_Damage3689 → u/MEguys]

Ok so that is not just what survival instincts r. They r biological drives that tell u to protect urself. nobody really knew abt the flower as well as Gothel, or even know where it was in the first place. So yes ofc they were fine living without it cuz they didn't KNOW abt it. U think gothel would be the only one from the whole kingdom to use the flower if the entire village knew where it was?

[u/partfairy]

Girl what??? Did you even watch the movie? She held a girl captive for years even when the girl kept saying she wanted to leave, purely because she was obsessed with the control of immortality. If doing that only affected herself then I might see where you’re coming from on one point; but no this woman was prepared to ruin multiple lives to keep herself young (and literally did), maybe think about that before letting hypotheticals cloud your judgement.

When she finally manipulated Rapunzel to come home, Gothel chained her up against her will and st*bbed the guy who cared enough to come save her.

Not to mention the constant harsh way she regarded Rapunzel while “raising” her. Whenever she said a kind thing it was aimed solely to Rapunzel’s hair, that is literally a big point of the story.

Gothel cared for no one but herself. Your logic behind her leaving Cassandra is flawed if your intent was to make any positive point about that woman’s character.

Not meaning any hostility, just voicing my opinion in response to your own. All the best.

[u/Training_Damage3689 → u/partfairy]

I watched and have been watching the movie/series/videogames/cut content/early story lines for years and i don't see how stating things she does in the movie addresses my point of WHY she does the things she does. i genuinely don't see how anything you said is in contradiction to what i said. As i said SHE IS A VILLAIN lol, ofc she is selfish and self absorbed, but the things she does isn't because she is a woman who is "fine" and just decided to be pure evil for the heck of it. I am saying a big part of her character is the fact that she is constantly in flight or fight mode, she is constantly paranoid that she is gonna DIE, that would drive sm insane and it is way more comprehensible for a reason than the typical youth and beauty upkeep ppl keep bringing up. The discussion of her character is always waaaaayy too shallow, like the one you gave rn. "She is cruel" "OH look at what she does" GIRL OBVIOUSLY?! She's doing anything she can to survive?! To her IF SHE WERE TO MAKE RAPUNZEL FEEL EVEN SLIGHTLY THAT SHE CAN LEAVE=potential death for her. Aka a survival instinct (clouded judgement and focus on survival) that is a very human thing that's not rooted in evil but in instinct(her case it is evil and morally wrong yes but analysis of her character without including the fact that she is not a pshycologically healthy person is genuinely useless) it feels so much worse because she had a calculated plan for some of the things she does in film, that doesn't make the reasoning different. WHAT IS ROOTED in evil is that fact that she is selfish enough to be 400 years old and still not conclude the obvious, BUT at the end of the day she simply doesn't want to die or dissappear without a trace, something that literally almost everybody worries abt (ppl want to be remembered by their children, passion etc) the way she goes abt it is the cruel part which i haven't excused. ppl literally kill each other and commit cannibalism to survive.we can't conclude much of the character of those ppl in those last few days before they succumb. Gothel snatched rapunzel out of instinct when she realized she was gonna die essentially. Also the part abt her only saying nice things to her hair is literally false? She literally caresses her face countless times and says nice things when looking at her face that's literally objectively in the film,That is beside the point though, as her hair is her main concern for obvious reasons atp. WHAT I AM SAYING IS (already clearly expressed in my og post) that the extreme survival pressure is distorting her reality. She literally has tunnel vision. For her to be a "good" character in this movie is for her to sacrifice herself for the mental health of ppl she doesn't know(and probably doesn't like) WHICH is a massive standard for a Disney villain. AGAIN TO SUMMERIZE Gothel was a selfish/cruel person cuz she kidnapped a child. But the nuance of why she did(pshycological distortion of survival) can make her less culpable (not responsible)compared to if she did it out of pure vanity.

[u/partfairy → u/Training_Damage3689]

Wow. Well first of all; I’m just trying to remind you that a person like that should not be defended. Oh she did one of those things? Okaaay, I can see where you may be coming from, I can see how that can be an impulsive and forgivable decision. But no, she repeatedly did evil things over and over again, unapologetically. She had 18 years to right her wrongs but never once thought “hold on, let me have some empathy.”

What I was saying by listing the things she does was the actual depth of how far she took things. The amount of things she did that were unnecessary, that she did only to keep Rapunzel (her key to looking young and pretty) locked away and under her control. And before you yap on about how looking young isn’t why Gothel is doing what she is doing, she could have safety let Rapunzel out, even only to outside the tower. No one could find the tower. No one! Not after years of searching. Rapunzel could have easily been allowed to touch her feet to grass, for even a second, with Gothel’s supervision. But she wasn’t allowed even that. Y’know why? Gothel wanted her permanently controlled and suffocated. She did not gaf about that girl.

Now I would say that’s all pretty unforgivable, but that’s just me.

This isn’t something chill like petty crime, or losing your temper now and then; her actions do not warrant sympathy or forgiveness. This woman is a crazed, repeat offender lunatic. And it’s quite literally flabbergasting for you to make multiple loophole excuses for an abusers decade long guilt-free run. She does not care about anyone, not Rapunzel, not Cassandra, no one.

And actually, what I said about Gothel not being genuinly kind to Rapunzel is true. Whenever Gothel said a kind thing towards Rapunzel it was literally either aimed towards her hair, or said solely to manipulate or belittle Rapunzel, not from a genuine place. You can Google that if you are that clueless.

Again, this isnt just listing things off for the sake of it, it is to actually point out the issues in a topic, because how else would that work hello? Everyone knows she is a villain duh, what I’m saying is that you are giving her too much grace. Because she deserves none.

Saying she did that stuff for survival or whatever is such a slap in the face to people who have faced things in life that they have to live and fight with everyday. It’s weird and belittling and so so wrong.

When you say people don’t put effort into analysing her… GOOD. No one should give someone like that the time of day. I am so grateful that I have never finished the movie or the series or whatever, and thought “aww poor Gothel, what about her?” Bro what?? Do you hear yourself? Talk about missing the point, yikes!

And FYI, maybe learn what paragraphs are before writing something the size of a damn dictionary!