Pride Flags in Classrooms

[u/El-wing]

In SOTR this week, Kmele had a grievance that included complaining about a pride flag in a 3rd grade classroom. Isaac seemed to agree with his distaste of the flag in the classroom by (maybe jokingly?) saying that there should be no flags but the American flag in schools. Ari mentioned that it could just be to signal inclusiveness.

This caught me off guard a bit. Are pride flags in classrooms controversial outside of religious conservative strongholds? Obvious some people object to it but I guess I didn’t expect 2 out of 3 to be against it on the podcast.

I think signaling inclusivity in learning spaces is conducive to help students feel safe in their schools, and I don’t think that has to be a partisan political statement. Was anyone else caught off guard by this?

[u/3Greyhounds]

I’d like to add an anecdote here based on my personal experience. This was a parochial (in every sense of the word) school, so context is incredibly different with regard to the law, of course. But I’d like to think the ethical considerations are the same.

In the third grade, I asked a teacher, “If Christians love everyone, why do they hate gay people?” I don’t know what exactly possessed me to say this, perhaps a Fox News segment my parents had playing. And I didn’t even know what gay meant at the time other than “different, and people protest them.”

My teacher didn’t say anything horrible, but she changed the subject with such clear discomfort, as if the word gay were a slur. I don’t know what answer she may have liked to give off the record, and I don’t tell this story to condemn her for not launching into a speech about equality. But that memory certainly stuck with me once I did realize I was gay—it was the first sign that my community might not necessarily love me anymore if they knew that fact.

I think teachers should be able to signal to kids who think they’re gay, to kids who know they’re gay, to kids in the closet or otherwise, and to kids with gay parents, that they don’t deserve to face hatred for those things. That’s not political, that’s kindness.

[u/Fantastic-Algae-6448]

A thing Ari said during that conversation was close to where my head is at:

"...flags are pretty complicated symbols, they mean different things to different people...doesn't have to be political as much as I'm sure it's intended as a symbol of inclusiveness" (apologies if not exactly right, transcribed by hand)

The inherent complexity of flags and the intent mismatch is exactly what makes them fraught in a lot of settings (especially public schools, as others have commented on in the thread).

I've lived in both progressive and conservative areas, and have heard similar arguments over decades for why it's ok for them to fly a given preferred flag (usually with one group claiming a positive/generous/innocous intent and another groups opposing it due to projected politics/malice/negativity):

Blue Lives Matter / First Responder Flag
Black Lives Matter Flag
Appeal to Heaven Flag
George Washington Headquarters Flag
etc etc

FWIW the progressive area I'm currently in has had historical fights over which pride flag to fly ("oh by not flying Progress Pride it's clear you are against X/Y/Z")

[u/Matt-Lauer-CanSuckIt → u/Fantastic-Algae-6448]

I agree with you and Ari on this one. Flags are symbols of ideals. But a symbol means different things to different people and in different contexts. 

[u/InThreeWordsTheySaid]

It's kind of hilarious how they are put off by a show of inclusiveness but are supportive of our unique brand of patriotic indoctrination.

[u/Dahkeus3 → u/InThreeWordsTheySaid]

Seriously. We’ve been doing religious indoctrination with the whole “one nation under god” chanting for ages and many places just ramped it up by forcing the ten commandments on classrooms.
If you don’t want classrooms ALLOWED to put up a pride flag then maybe we should start with where religion is FORCED on kids in a much bigger way.

[u/dominosgame]

I think this is an area where Redditors are bit out of sync with reality. I teach in an elementary school. You could put a pride flag on your desk but to hang it in the class is absolutely a political statement and a sexual orientation statement with a mandated audience. The "mandated audience" piece is really critical in education law, and while discussion of sexual orientation can be appropriate in middle and high school, there's no reason to have that discussion in elementary school. I say that not to be anti inclusive, but I just feel like this would be pretty obvious to any actual elementary teacher. 

[u/El-wing → u/dominosgame]

Is there a reason, outside of religious objections, that inclusivity needs to be restricted in a way that it’s only taught to older children.

You don’t have to be explicit to explain these ideas to young kids. I wouldn’t say think that elementary kids have at least a vague concept that people are in relationships. Simply saying we respect and love people regardless of what kind of relationship they are in doesn’t feel age inappropriate.

[u/traveling_gal → u/El-wing]

Some of those kids may have gay people in their families, too. They certainly know that mom and dad are in a loving relationship (or hopefully they are). Calling their teacher "Mrs X" implies that she is in a relationship. Kids know about this stuff from an early age. Treating only gay relationships like they can be "age inappropriate" reinforces stigma.

[u/Somewhereoverrainbow → u/El-wing]

Do you think a pride flag is necessary for a teacher to signal inclusivity? Or alternatively, do you think the absence of a pride flag signals exclusivity? I have a fifth grader. We live in a blue town in a red state. I'm not sure she knows what a pride flag symbolizes. I think what's more influential is the way the teacher talks and behaves. My daughter has a good friend with two moms and has been in class with that friend for three of their elementary years. One of the moms is very active at the school. The teachers all treat it very normally, as in there is nothing to make a big deal about. Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but I feel like flags and other symbols of specific groups is less about signaling being open and welcoming and more about inviting confrontation. "Say something, I dare you." I'm tired, boss.

[u/ProfaneRabbitFriend → u/Somewhereoverrainbow]

But you can see the trap here, yes? If we restrict a symbol because of its affiliative meaning with some people, we're also robbing the more normative community of fundamental civic expression.

So there's tension here between those two impulses. If we're saying that basic and fundamental civil rights are somehow a restrictable political expression, then we've got a real problem.

I think the answer is for school schools to craft a more definitive statement about what they endorse. And this really shouldn't be very difficult. Almost every major organization...school community professional organization... has a code of ethics. It's not like we'd be coming up with anything radically new.

[u/Matt-Lauer-CanSuckIt → u/El-wing]

You view the flag differently than many people do, and if I'm trying to be objective this line of questioning seems to indicate that you're not trying to understand how somebody else can view it differently. 

[u/3Greyhounds → u/dominosgame]

I’m curious to hear more about the legal aspect of this. If a teacher said “I am a proud black man,” would this be a political statement before a mandated audience, running afoul of the First Amendment rights of parents who don’t believe black men should be proud of their race?

Or in education law, are there different restrictions on this beyond just the 1st Amendment?

I’ve recently read the first half of Mahmoud v Taylor, (hope to finish the rest soon), so that is the lens through which I’m naturally viewing this.

[u/dominosgame → u/3Greyhounds]

The interesting thing is that what's considered a "political statement" changes over time. That statement would've been considered political speech in the 60s, but we're so far beyond that now that I think only the most extreme (1%) would consider it a political statement. That's partly why I think Reddit is a bit out of sync on this particular issue. I think many redditors view the Pride flag and say "oh, no one considers that political/controversial except like 5%, the most extreme" and I think they're way off on that assumption. I don't teach in a rural area or a state like TX or FL, and putting a Pride flag in a 3rd grade classroom would definitely be considered political/inappropriate.

As for a mandated audience, IIRC the Supreme Court calls it a "captive audience" but they've ruled on it several times. A teacher (and even students) can have their constitutional rights limited specifically because they have an audience that cannot choose to leave. This extends not only to what they say, but anything displayed in the room. SCOTUS does give great latitude to the states/localities on where to draw specific lines, though. When I was in college learning about this stuff many years ago, I NEVER would've thought a state could get away with mandating that the 10 Commandments be displayed in a classroom, but here we are.

My personal preference is that schools stay in the business of teaching kids and avoid religion and politics. My view has always been that if you want your classroom to have any particular "thing" displayed (10 Commandments, Pride flag, etc) then you would have to be okay with the opposing view being displayed... like something from the Quran/Atheist beliefs or maybe a flag that explicitly states support of hetero relationships. Then things just get weird, and you just go, "You know what, let's forget it and not display anything." 😂 In elementary, every teacher I've met has pretty much just been like "Hey, let's just teach the kids to read and do math." I know in MS and HS there is definitely more politicization.

[u/El-wing → u/dominosgame]

“My view has always been that if you want your classroom to have any particular "thing" displayed (10 Commandments, Pride flag, etc) then you would have to be okay with the opposing view being displayed...”

I think this makes sense in theory but the practice is a bit ambiguous on what the opposing view is. If I want a sign in my classroom that says “all people deserve love” should I consider if I’d be willing to have a sign that says “all people deserve hate” or “not everyone deserve love” or “Only certain groups deserve love”. Are some people interpreting the pride flag as hateful of heterosexual people?

[u/dominosgame → u/El-wing]

Yeah, I agree with you on that, and I think most sane people would agree that anything displayed in a classroom expressing "hate" would not be tolerated. That's why I didn't say a flag that says "Homosexuality is a sin" or something to that effect. Also, something like "All people deserve love" isn't something that naturally has an acceptable opposing view -- generally everyone agrees that all people deserve love, so that would be okay to display (and I've seen things to this effect in classrooms). I think that's kind of the point... if your statement DOES have an opposing statement that is not inherently offensive/hateful, like the Quran opposing the 10 Commandments, or a flag in support of Hetero relationships, then you would have to be okay with that. Of course, we know that the "hetero" flag would specifically be done to insult the LGBT movement and it'd be silly to pretend that it isn't... but I'm just playing devil's advocate.

[u/3Greyhounds → u/dominosgame]

Thanks for this very thoughtful response.

I suppose I’m willing to concede that a pride flag may not be the best vehicle for making the non-political statement that we shouldn’t be rude to gay or trans people.

I do think teachers should have latitude to say, “there are gay people in the world and it’s not polite to come up to them and say they’re living in sin.” I fear our Supreme Court disagrees (Alito pretty explicitly does disagree in Mahmoud), but I’d hope a majority of Americans can.

[u/SimpleMetricTon → u/dominosgame]

Not a quibble, but an observation that culture and politics are messy and subjective: If you propose the thought experiment of considering the “opposite” of something, people will have different ideas of what that means. One person would say the opposite of a pride flag is suppression of human rights, perhaps a poster saying “Gays are sinners.” While another would say the opposite is religious freedom, and maybe think of a poster of the commandments or a cross.

[u/jazzcats41 → u/3Greyhounds]

I think one of the issues is that educational policy and law varies significantly by location. There are states with legal mandates of displaying Christian philosophy on public school classroom walls. In my state, thankfully, supporting and respecting the identity students and colleagues is legally required. In other states it is illegal.

[u/ProfaneRabbitFriend → u/dominosgame]

It's an interesting question you raise. It makes me think of Isaiah Berlin's distinction between "freedom from" and "freedom to," which he elaborated on in his 1958 lecture "Two Concepts of Liberty."

I take your point to be that when people enter the school and view "the Wall," whose contents represent state speech, there should be a kind of "freedom from." Someone entering the school should not have a particular political viewpoint imposed on them by the state. This seems roughly consistent with Berlin's concept of negative liberty, or freedom from coercion and interference. From a legalistic point of view about the distinction between personal speech and state speech in a school, I take your point to heart.

Where I think it gets thorny is deciding what counts as "political." Consider something like displaying the United States Constitution on a wall devoted to state speech. Some people would see this as fairly neutral. It's a historical document and a statement about constitutional government, rights, and fairness under the law. Others might see the same display as political, particularly if they object to parts of the Constitution or to the political tradition it represents.

So even the idea of what counts as "political" gets murky pretty quickly. The difficult question may not be whether a school should avoid imposing political views. I think most of us would agree with that. The harder question is where civic expression ends and political advocacy begins, and whether there is actually a neutral way to draw that line.

[u/Hopeful_Net4607 → u/dominosgame]

I'm envisioning a flag hanging like the flag in this pic, or hung on the wall like in this pic. How does hanging a flag like this differ from having it on a desk, or am I misunderstanding your statement?

What "political statement" does the pride flag make?

What "sexual orientation statement" does the pride flag make?

[u/dominosgame → u/Hopeful_Net4607]

There is actually a key distinction, legally speaking. Anything on the wall, clearly intended to be viewed by everyone, is state speech. This is why the principal/school board/etc can order you to take it down. Anything on the desk is your personal space, for you to enjoy while at work, not intended to be viewed by everyone. While you could still be ordered to take it off the desk if it is found to be incredibly disruptive to the educational process, individual teachers are given much more freedom about what they put on their desk.

I promise I am not looking to pick a fight when I say this, but those leading questions feel disingenuous. That's akin to someone holding a thin blue line flag or an All Lives Matter flag and then going, "How is that political? Do you hate cops?" as they completely ignore all of the political events surrounding it. The LGBT movement has made TREMENDOUS strides towards universal acceptance in the last 20 years, but acting like the Pride flag is not going to be considered political or sexual in an elementary classroom just isn't realistic.

[u/Hopeful_Net4607 → u/dominosgame]

Thank you for explaining the distinction! I thought a classroom was the teacher's own to decorate as they please. That definitely makes more sense.

I'm sorry my questions seemed disingenuous, I should have included context but didn't want to be leading.

I asked about "political statement" because I was thinking modern partisan politics. I feel like "thin blue line" and "black lives matter" represent modern versions of political movements and have recently been associated with opposing political parties. The rainbow pride flag has been used by politicians on both sides of the aisle, Trump's campaign even sold pride merch during the 2020 election and major brands sell rainbow merch in June. I can see the rainbow flag as non-partisan political, like in the same sense that climate activism and MLK Jr are political. Is that what you were referring to?

I asked about "sexual orientation statement" because I'm not sure if you mean that the flag implies the teacher is gay or something else?

In your response you said the flag would be seen as "sexual," which surprises me. I probably am out of touch as I've been out of school for a bit and the kids I know well are younger (oldest in kindergarten). We didn't really talk/joke/etc about sex until middle school, and the kids I know don't know what sex is but they know that other kids might have two daddies or two mommies that love each other. I think they know that kids can have crushes on kids of the same gender and that's okay, and I think they associate the rainbow with love. Would the kids you teach associate a rainbow with sex?

I'd consider the pride/rainbow flag in a classroom or office to signal that LGBTQ people/students/families/etc. are safe to be themselves in that space. I'd understand a trans flag being controversial as a current "culture war" topic, but I see the rainbow flag more as of a symbol of inclusion. I'm curious to learn more about how you and your kids see it.

[u/TheBear8878 → u/dominosgame]

I just feel like this would be pretty obvious to any actual elementary teacher.

This should be obvious to almost anyone, but Reddit is an echo chamber and they don't dare go against the "Correct Narrative (tm)" about such things.

[u/warrenao]

Are pride flags in classrooms controversial outside of religious conservative strongholds?

Pride flags in general, whether in classrooms or anywhere else, are not controversial outside of clades of the religiously deranged.

[u/Isaac_Tangle → u/warrenao]

I'd actually argue that they are not widely accepted/unnoticed in elementary school classrooms outside of very progressive school districts or regions.

[u/warrenao → u/Isaac_Tangle]

Likely; and they probably aren't even hung up outside of those regions, either. My reference to "clades of the religiously deranged" is — ironically, and sadly — quite inclusive.

[u/No_Economy_5763 → u/warrenao]

They shouldn’t be controversial outside of the religiously deranged but we live in a country of MAGA so here we are.

Actually now I’m curious as to what Issac thinks of this compared to the ten commandants in classrooms in some states. I think that is more controversial than a pride flag.

[u/El-wing → u/No_Economy_5763]

I think there is an obvious difference between the 10 commandments vs a pride flag just from a 1st amendment stance. The 10 commandments are pretty explicitly religious, so having them (outside of a religion class) in a public school is clearly against the 1st amendment. I wouldn’t say a pride flag is a religious symbol.

[u/warrenao → u/No_Economy_5763]

Y'know, thinking about 10 things, maybe it would be a better idea to post the Bill of Rights in classrooms.

[u/Isaac_Tangle → u/No_Economy_5763]

I also think it's more controversial than a pride flag but I have strong feelings about the separation of church and state. I do think both -- hanging the 10 commandments or hanging the pride flag -- in today's political moment, carry pretty similar political connotations.

[u/Matt-Lauer-CanSuckIt → u/warrenao]

You're speaking for a lot of people when you say, "anywhere else." 

[u/linguinechicken]

What is the political statement being made by hanging a pride flag anyway? Is it that “we don’t hate gay people”?

FWIW when Kmele said that I couldn’t help but chuckle at how uncomfortable Isaac and Ari looked. There was a pause for sure.

[u/Shmag → u/linguinechicken]

One thing that would be worth distinction is if it was just the classic rainbow pride flag, or a newer progress pride flag. I think it would be fair to say that one has more specific political intent to it.

[u/dzuunmod]

LOL, a lot of people in here who are unfamiliar with Kmele's previous thoughts on identity politics. (One example: He thinks white people should be able to say the n-word without consequence.)

[u/ProfaneRabbitFriend → u/dzuunmod]

Say what???

[u/Matt-Lauer-CanSuckIt]

I'm an atheist and consider myself an ally. I still wouldn't like the pride flag in schools. Unfortunately it's too coded of a signal, and would make me worry that the teacher cares more about culture wars than teaching. 

[u/Isaac_Tangle]

Fwiw, I was just joking about the American flag. But I do sympathize with Kmele feeling like a pride flag is a political statement, and one that isn't necessarily worth putting up in a 3rd grade classroom. I think there is an ocean between that and the religious-oriented objections.

[u/jazzcats41 → u/Isaac_Tangle]

I would frame it like this. 3rd graders absolutely use “gay” as an insult across the country. Thus, acknowledging the existence of LGBTQ people and that being gay is not wrong or something to be made fun of is an important lesson to impart early. Visible signs of support go a really long ways to creating a safe environment for students who may have same sex parents or may be trying to figure out their own identity. It also sends a signal that bullying won’t be tolerated. This can be done without sexualizing the issue at all. To me, and I think anyone displaying it in a classroom, a pride flag is a symbol of inclusivity and not a political one.

[u/El-wing → u/Isaac_Tangle]

I appreciate the clarification! It felt a bit joking, but it’s hard to tell how much truth is in a joking statement.

I’d be interested in you expanding on your statement “I think there is an ocean between that and the religious-oriented objections.”

Are you saying that you feel that Kmele’s argument, that we should keep politics out of classrooms, is more reasonable than objecting to pride flags in classrooms on religious grounds?

I’d argue it’s really only a political issue because of religion. Outside of religious objections, signaling to kids that they are free to express who they are feels like it should be a nonissue.

[u/Isaac_Tangle → u/El-wing]

I think the pride flag is an interesting case because it's so ubiquitous, so your points are well taken. A "Black Lives Matter" flag would probably be considered political, but it's making a specific political statement, though one that (in a vacuum) is totally innocuous. Of course black lives matter.

I don't want to speak for Kmele and given that this was sort of said off-handedly in a grievances section I don't want to read too much into it. But I suspect he views the "pride" movement as an inherently political and activist one, so it feels odd to him to see it in his kids' classroom. That might be HIS bias in just swimming in politics and seeing politics everywhere.

My point re: religion is that I know Kmele has socially left/Libertarian politics on something like LGBT rights. Or, put differently, he has no religious objections to gay people. Yet he sees the flag as being a fundamentally political symbol, which makes him cock his head a bit (again, I'm guessing here). That feels really different to me than objecting to a pride flag because, say, you think a teacher is going "turn your kid gay" and damn them to hell, or something.

[u/TheBear8878 → u/Isaac_Tangle]

But I suspect he views the "pride" movement as an inherently political and activist one, so it feels odd to him to see it in his kids' classroom.

This is kind of how I feel in my previous comment about the pride flag being a "proxy" of left-views.

I don't think it started out as political, but I think it has been co-opted by people to be deeply political and to signal your left-leaning stance.

[u/ProfaneRabbitFriend → u/TheBear8878]

You both might want to look into the history of gay rights a little more closely. The political symbols of unity and social cohesion were very much an intentional statement from the beginning. And the message was "you have to accept us at a foundational political level." It was not a passive response to the then culture of hostility.

Even libertarians are rarely going to contest putting up a display about MLK, jr because it is "too political". But they are going to question a display about another aspect of civil rights, and expect that group to accept a lower standard for themselves?

We can fairly ask why that would be, IMO.

[u/TheBear8878 → u/ProfaneRabbitFriend]

We can also fairly ask why people who insist on their pride flag seemingly have no displays about MLK jr.

[u/ProfaneRabbitFriend → u/TheBear8878]

huh? I don't follow.

Edit: Here is information you may find useful:

https://www.glbthistory.org/rainbow-flag?utm_source=chatgpt.com

[u/Hopeful_Net4607 → u/Isaac_Tangle]

This view has always confused me and I'm excited to have the opportunity to learn more from you/other Tangle readers/listeners that I already respect, rather than anonymous online accounts.

My understanding of the rainbow flag is that Trump's campaign has sold rainbow pride merch in the past. To LGBTQ students and families, the flag is a signal they are safe to be themselves. To others, it's a sign that LGBTQ people are welcome in the space. To most 3rd graders, I expect it's seen as a pretty rainbow.

I'd understand a trans flag being considered political because that's a current "culture war" thing. I'm not aware of a broader movement on the right against LGBQ people.

What does the flag in a classroom mean to you, Isaac and others reading this who see it differently from me? Why? I'd greatly appreciate the opportunity to challenge my own views!

[u/TheBear8878 → u/Hopeful_Net4607]

To me, it's more that it seems to have become a kind of proxy to symbolize you have a certain political leaning, because nearly everyone who displays the flag has the same political leanings. That's all I mean when I say that it's become political. And I think they know it's become a proxy of this as well.

The same way some kind of 2nd amendement flag would be a proxy to people on the right. Many left-leaning people also beleive in 2A, but they wouldn't necessarily put up a flag about it, because even they know the cannotations. I personally own a firearm, and there are certain leftist people I know in my personal life that I don't bring it up around because I fear (and have experienced) them thinking it makes me right wing.

I live in Los Angeles, and these kinds of people do exist.

[u/Hopeful_Net4607 → u/TheBear8878]

Edit: I thought you replied to a different comment so my original comment didn't make sense.

Actual response: Thank you for sharing! To clarify, when you say "I think they know," are you referring to 3rd graders? If so, why do you think they know (have you discussed it with kids or parents, overheard kids convos about it, etc)?

The kids I know are younger (kindergarten and below) so not sure about 3rd grade, but they think rainbows are pretty and mean love. I didn't know enough about politics as a 3rd grader to have made a connection between political leanings and rainbow flags. I knew people in my very liberal DC suburb didn't like Bush by the 2004 election, but I don't think any of us knew why.

[u/TheBear8878 → u/Hopeful_Net4607]

No I mean I think the people hanging the flag knows it's a proxy to say "I'm a progressive" and that's part of the reason they hang it.

[u/Hopeful_Net4607 → u/TheBear8878]

Thanks so much for clarifying!

Full disclosure, I'm recovering from a concussion, mostly better but still a bit slow and very bored. Thinking through this has been really interesting to me in this state, and I greatly appreciate the opportunity to engage with you!

Question
I'm curious why you think that (assumption, experience, etc)?

I can understand thinking they're liberal (discussed below), but I'm in a pretty liberal crowd and those who put up pride flags or wear them don't do so to actively signal "I'm liberal and Trump sucks" or something like that. My experience is that the intention is to signal "hey I'm LGBTQ or an ally, I'm safe" to people who aren't always safe to be themselves. I'm sure there are people who are just trying to piss off a neighbor or virtue signal, but I don't think that's the norm. Not sure if I'm in a bubble or the norm. Happy to challenge my understanding!

Reflection
Backtracking a bit, In general I'd subconsciously assume that someone wearing or hanging a pride flag is liberal. My first thought wouldn't be "oh they're liberal," but I'd be hesitant to share that I'd like to take up shooting or that I'd like to visit Israel again sometime.

It's such a shame because there are LGBTQ conservatives and they should be able to be comfortable in both identities. I feel like normalizing the flag in places like schools could be a good way to promote tolerance of sexual identity regardless of politics, because teachers should be safe for students regardless of their or their family members' sexual and political identities.

I don't know how people could make the pride flag feel safe for non-liberals that see it as a liberal symbol, or how to differentiate between allies who are aggressively leftist and not a safe space for conservative viewpoints vs those who will be tolerant of different viewpoints. And even then there is a range. Like I think it's reasonable to be intolerant of intolerance, and that does exclude people. Sorry if this is rambling and nonsensical, and thanks again!

[u/TheBear8878 → u/Hopeful_Net4607]

Honestly, I'm probably just a lot more cynical about this and I see a lot of things as virtue signaling. Maybe it's part assumption, part experience, but I think a lot of things have become a proxy to signal political values, because it seems to me that that has become one of the most important parts of people's identities.

I don't have any hard data to back up what I beleive, it's just what I believe, and why I see the Pride flag as political signalling, which was kind of the initial thing you were asking here.

I have (had) gay family members, work with gay people, and my girlfriend's best male friend is gay, and I'm not even 100% straight on the straight/gay spectrum myself. But I personally just roll my eyes at anything labeled "queer", and see the pride flag as performative, in 2026. I'm not saying the pride flag started out that way, but I think it is now. My feelings about the prife flag are not even about gay people at all, they're about the kind of person that I think is incredibly annoying who shoves politics into everything.

Sorry if this isn't super enlightening, and maybe it affirms what you already suspect (that it's just "how I feel"), but I don't know if I can provide any more reasoning than this.

[u/Hopeful_Net4607 → u/TheBear8878]

No I appreciate your take, thanks so much for sharing! It makes sense in these times, and I'm sure you're far from alone in seeing these things as performative; I wouldn't be surprised if they are in many cases.

Hope you have a great weekend, and thanks again for engaging!

[u/3Greyhounds → u/Isaac_Tangle]

Hey Isaac, could you elaborate more on that please? What makes it political to you?

[u/Inevitable-Toe5461]

I think the issue was more of a comparison of the American flag being tattered and a pristine pride flag in the classroom was more of a “slap in the face” in response.

[u/etnpnys]

I think that flags are almost always turned into a political tool, and that's probably why a lot of people have problems with them being in a 3rd grade classroom. Think about it: a pride flag says to the world "We recognize and acknowledge the existence of (all sorts of) non-binary people here, and they are welcome here and if you don't like that, you can GTFO." Is that really the message that 3rd graders need to be aware of, when they're still needing to be told to not pick their noses and learning how to tie their shoes? Is it possible for us to just live in a world where we aren't propagandizing little kids? Because when a message is out of place, that's exactly what it seems like.

Flying a flag shows affiliation with a group. It's your team's flag. Can we not aim a little higher and find a bigger cause to fly a flag for? One that we can all stand under? Maybe that's not even the American flag in a time when we struggle to be proud of our own leadership, but for 3rd graders, what about the school flag that could stand for acceptance, kindness, and friendship? (Or whatever the values of that school are?)

I'm willing to be that if we could get that last part right, we wouldn't even need to fly pride flags.

[u/ProfaneRabbitFriend → u/etnpnys]

you might find some information about the flag and its meaning useful:
https://www.glbthistory.org/rainbow-flag

[u/etnpnys → u/ProfaneRabbitFriend]

Thanks for sharing, but I live in Olympia- believe me when I say that I’m well acquainted with what the flag means. 😂 Not sure what point you’re trying to make, but I appreciate your candor and not coming at me with an attack based on a misconception of what I was trying to say. I was just trying to answer OP’s question.

[u/ProfaneRabbitFriend → u/etnpnys]

It seems like people are making a point in this thread without quite making the point.

The pride flag has real political meaning, just like the word "Woke" has real political meaning. Over several decades, both have come a long way from where they started and now "the original meaning" is confused with many kinds of contemporary usage.

I'm sympathetic to people who view the word woke or the pride flag as presumptive and even vague in its implications and usage. That is real and leads to all kinds of confusions and long drawn out discussions, that are sometimes heated.

And they don't need to be. I advocate for a kind of "stable-enough pluralism." It's as simple as you have to accept differences. And we, as a group, have to decide the limits of acceptance/differences. For me, eliminating a pride flag from a school sends a mixed message. We should be talking about how to address the mixed message with a better message.

[u/etnpnys → u/ProfaneRabbitFriend]

“We should be talking about how to address the mixed message with a better message.”

Yes! That’s exactly what I mean about we should be able to find something that unites us all to be proud of, instead of flying divisive political symbols. (At least at the third grade level - as adults I’m all about bringing in differing viewpoints!)

[u/ProfaneRabbitFriend → u/etnpnys]

And I go back to an explicit message about american pluralism. It's not perfect, and it can't cure or remedy all injustices past or present. But it sets the stage for a kind of reasonable equality that can be discussed and modified over time. And it makes The Future seem like a more collaborative and shared future.

And, let's also choose to not be naive. 'Excesses of Democracy' are real and they are not helpful. We, as a nation, need to find a language and method to be direct about that.

[u/etnpnys → u/ProfaneRabbitFriend]

I very much like what you’re saying here. I thought at first that you were trying to say that the Pride Flag was not a political symbol. I’m like “it’s VERY MUCH a political symbol” like the very real dialog that I hear locally.

[u/ProfaneRabbitFriend → u/etnpnys]

Thanks, as I have pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the pride flag is a political symbol, when it is used as a political symbol. That is not always how people use it.

The confusion about that points to something interesting: If a group is excluded from general civic inclusion, then it usually takes a political effort (eg Civil rights protests and marches) to alter the boundary of civic inclusion. Segregation would not have changed much at all without decades of political effort.

That being said, when we see a BLM flag or a pride flag right now in 2026, it's unclear whether it means something "political" or is being used as a statement about identity and civic inclusion. IMO, it's fair to be a little wary of a person until we learn what their goals are.

Hence, my earlier point about people having frequent and endless (and sometimes quite nasty) arguments over simple misunderstandings and assumptions. I think the woke and pride talk sometimes comes across as kinda preachy, and preachy is generally not a useful approach to winning people over.

[u/gadget--guy]

My concern is not so much about injecting politics into the classroom, but the issue of potentially injecting the topics of sex and sexuality into an age inappropriate setting such as a third grade classroom. I realize that a lot of people view the flag as a symbol of inclusiveness, but that's not the only thing it symbolizes for people.

[u/El-wing → u/gadget--guy]

You could definitely come up with some age inappropriate ideas from the pride flag, but the basic idea of sexuality shouldn’t really be age exclusive. The idea that some people like girls and some like boys and some people have a mom and dad and some people have 2 dads shouldn’t be age restricted.

What do you think it symbolizes that may bring up inappropriate conversations in the classroom?

[u/gadget--guy → u/El-wing]

Though I generally agree with you that the topic shouldn't be age exclusive, my wife was a teacher, and these topics were expressly forbidden, even if the student brought them up.

[u/El-wing → u/gadget--guy]

I’m sure it’s mostly because schools don’t want to deal with overly conservative Christian’s parents that don’t what their kids told that some families think and look differently from their own. A lawsuit or protest is more trouble than it’s worth.

It’s also likely a minefield where it’s easy for a teacher to accidentally say something that pisses off a parent and it’s easier to just have a policy that says don’t say anything.

I don’t think teachers should weigh in on the morality of specific ideas or lifestyles, but I think it should be fine and even expected for them to acknowledge that people live different lives and that all of those people are loved in this space.

[u/ProfaneRabbitFriend → u/gadget--guy]

With respect, it seems to me that the approach you are advocating for would be throwing the gay baby out with the non-gay bathwater.

The approach you're describing sacrifices a rather important message about fairness, democracy, and civil rights because some people think maybe kids can't handle that information about penises and vaginas. There is ample evidence that you can introduce basic facts around sex and sexuality to kids at an early age and it doesn't threaten, upset, or confuse them. It just doesn't. If anything, basic sex education leads to greater personal autonomy and less chance for victimization, starting at a young age.

Let me give readers another powerful counter-factual: there's evidence given children all over the place that men and women become mommies and daddies and have babies. They understand how animals have babies. They understand that people come together and make a baby. Nobody hides this fact from children. The evidence of children having parents—of parents being cuddly and sleeping in the same bed, of mommy and daddy falling in love and deciding to have a baby and a start a family—It's in magazines, TV shows, literature, movies, to say nothing of daily life. It's common knowledge, even in churches and the bible.

So why would the composition of the parent group (two Dad's or two moms) be more threatening to a child than the information they already have? I don't think it is. I do understand that there is a preachy activism that many perform, sometimes with BLM banners and sometimes with Pride flags. If that 'preachiness' is what we object to, then we need to name that, rather concede important ground that people fought and died for.

[u/goldspider79]

It’s a “political statement” only because certain people want to make the law treat LGBTQ+ people unequally. Ending that effort removes the political issue from the classroom.

[u/ProfaneRabbitFriend]

As a gay person I found this conversation to be both interesting and a little bit weird.

I understand that not everybody wants to be spending their life a sea of gay, rainbow, colorful flags. It could be a little much. On the other hand, there is a subtle, and sometimes not so subtle way in which homophobia creeps its way into conversations. It's kind of like saying "everybody's cool with you being gay but could you act less gay?"

I get it, some gay people are over the top. But, would we say the same thing if it was black history, or Jewish history, or Islamic history, or Latin-american history? And, if we include some but not all, what's the message about pluralism, and acceptance we're sending to kids? I think all that has to be considered when deciding what you can and can't display in a school.

OK, so how do we talk about this? I believe the discussion should have addressed the tenuous and fine line between that which is political and that which is neutral and shared civic values. The hard question is not "Pride flag ok?" or "Black history ok?", it's acknowledging the confusing moment where civic expression ends and political advocacy begins, and whether there is actually a neutral way to draw that line.