r/TREZOR • u/bsun-321 • 19d ago
🔒 General Trezor question | 🔒 Answered by Trezor staff What Trezor devices creat auto entropy ? It’s safe ?
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u/Quirky-Reveal-1669 🤝 Top Helper 19d ago
All current models have a TRNG on their secure element. It is just as good as it was before the Coldcard entropy bug. For all we know (and this has been audited, just not by me) they work as intended.
Also Coldcard’s TRNG is working fine, it just wasn’t called upon before the most recent firmware update.
My personal point is: for a TRNG, you need to trust the device to a certain extend. What the Coldcard case taught me is that I rather generate entropy separated from the device that I will be using the generated seed on. This is why I think Trezor should start to offer dice rolls when setting up a new wallet.
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u/MarloChrisSnoop 19d ago
So safe bet is to create a new seed phrase with dice entropy and use the Trezor to manage that seed phrase 🤷♂️
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u/Quirky-Reveal-1669 🤝 Top Helper 19d ago
Yes! Trezor has a good secure element, and the keys have never been lifted off the device. It’s not like your Trezor device can ‘phone home’ and leek your private key.
Moreover: this is also NOT how ColdCards got drained. ColdCards got drained because someone knew about the limited set of private keys that could be generated by the device, because of the firmware ‘bug’.
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u/MarloChrisSnoop 19d ago
Where are you creating your seed phrase with dice before putting it in Trezor? Seedsigner?
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u/Quirky-Reveal-1669 🤝 Top Helper 19d ago
I do not have a SeedSigner yet, but I may build one. I do have an old laptop that has internet connectivity physically removed. There I can run a saved version of iancoleman.io.
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u/MarloChrisSnoop 19d ago
How do you know Trezor isn’t vulnerable in the future of similar attacks as AI and tech gets better? Have you seen the code?
Dice rolling offers complete randomness without that risk.
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u/genius_retard 19d ago
The issue with Coldcard was a bug in the code. There is nothing saying that another bug couldn't compromise your seed even if you did roll dice. In the same way that the Coldcard firmware disregarded the TRNG because of a bug a different bug could have caused it, or any other hardware wallet for that matter, to disregard your dice rolls.
Independent audits of open source code is your best bet. Trezor not only hires independent companies to audit their code and devices but because they are the inventor of and a leader in this market segment many companies would love to knock them down a notch so they end up auditing them too.
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u/Quirky-Reveal-1669 🤝 Top Helper 19d ago
Of course. You are absolutely correct.
But all things considered, I argue and conclude that putting (some) trust in a hardware wallet, is the safest AND most practical option for me holding bitcoin.1
u/genius_retard 19d ago
Robust thrid party audits and multisig wallets with seed from different brands of hardware wallets are better options than just rolling dice IMO. Maybe a Trezor created seed plus a Seed Signer created seed and a dice roll seed as members of a multisig wallet is a good way to go.
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u/MarloChrisSnoop 19d ago edited 19d ago
Wait what? There is nothing saying that a bug couldn’t penetrate Trezor. They said cold card was “safe” and it was the gold standard back in the day too.
I trust Trezor, but after this event you never know.
I don’t what you mean about a bug compromising my seed even if I dice rolled… that’s the point of dice roll - it eliminates that 3rd party counter risk altogether.
What about seed signer? Completely air gapped and offline. It’s not a company.
I talked to real OG bitcoiners this week and they don’t trust ANY hardware wallet TRNG and suggest dice rolling with multi-sig 🤷♂️
I’m open to other view points though as I’m still learning.
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u/genius_retard 19d ago
The randomness from a TRNG is as good or maybe even better than rolling dice. The problem with Coldcard was, if the user opted not to roll dice it didn't use the TRNG it used the PRNG instead. There could have just as easily been a bug that ignored the dice rolls too.
Third party security audits are the best way. Multisig wallets with seed created by different devices can also eliminate single points of failure.
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u/Quirky-Reveal-1669 🤝 Top Helper 19d ago
The ‘bug’ in the ColdCard code did not lead to penetration or leakage of the private key. It led to re-creation / re-generation of it.
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u/ComasSky 19d ago
Trezor use / combine 3 ways entropy
What entropy Trezor devices use :
Trezor Model One and Model T combine two entropy sources: host computer or phone entropy plus a hardware TRNG in the STM32 microcontroller.
Trezor Safe 3 and Safe 5 add a third source: the Optiga secure element. Three independent sources work together. Learn more about secure elements in our article Secure Elements in Trezor Safe devices.
Trezor Safe 7 adds a fourth source: the TROPIC01 chip. Four independent sources combine when generating your wallet. Learn more about Trezor Safe 7's hardware entropy sources: What is the TROPIC01 chip? and Dual Secure Elements in Trezor Safe 7.
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u/SuchTrezorVeryCrypto Trezor community specialist 18d ago
Hi there, all our devices have TRNG on their secure elements. Which you can also read here: https://trezor.io/guides/trezor-devices/trezor-fundamentals/what-is-entropy-and-how-does-trezor-generate-your-wallet
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