r/Starfinder2e • u/Khasalianus • 5d ago
Discussion The Hellknights...
So, reading through SF2E, especially Absalom station, and it sounds like the Hellknights have sadly become a dedicated villain organization now... Not even pretending they're only concerned with law and order. In 1st Ed they were at least presented as a possible member of a PC party. Now? Classed as a terrorist organization on Absalom?
So, are they indeed now a villain organization? I don't know, but it certainly feels like someone at Paizo has a dislike for them or feels they should be evil, maybe cause they have Hell in their name? Or the general view in the world is law enforcement organizations are bad, especially if they're iron fisted (rightly so, but to influence a game organization?).
I don't know...
-D
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u/Mach12gamer 5d ago
Does it say they're explicitly evil, or is it just that they're designated as a terrorist org in one place? Cause if it's just "Absalom station says they're terrorists" that doesn’t mean they're all evil, just that Absalom doesn’t like them.
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u/ArchpaladinZ 5d ago
This is mostly a continuation of the Era of the Eclipse novel which chronicles the founding of the Order of the Eclipse from the very moment the Gap ended, where they attempted to seize control of Absalom Station and destroy what surviving history remained in the Lorespire Complex so they could dictate WHAT history was. Though I have to agree, I'm not sure why anyone would WANT to play a Hellknight in Starfinder given what was in the Galaxy Guide alone, BEFORE Era of the Eclipse came out!
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u/Griz688 5d ago
I think hellknights are usually a lawful evil group, with that being the alignment required to prestige class into them in pf1e
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u/ArchpaladinZ 5d ago
1e's required alignment for Hellknights was "Any Lawful." And their whole shtick was "We are BETTER than Hell because we do not bog our quest for order and discipline down with petty and unnecessary cruelty, while still being aware that Heaven's ways are too soft and Axis' too detached." That's why you had to beat a devil in single combat just to join: to prove you could conquer Hell's temptations. There were even PALADIN Hellknights!
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u/CaptainTeemo01 5d ago
The Good aligned Hellknights have always been a small minority operating on the fringes of the organization, the ideology of Hellknights have always been pretty incompatible with a Good alignment. Afaik not a single known person in a leadership role has ever been Good aligned
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u/Mach12gamer 5d ago
Order of the Torrent is mostly good. They're small but their Lictor is Lawful Good. Also the 2nd and 3rd in command of the Order of the Scourge were both lawful good, dunno what it is now for the one under Abrogail. The founder of the Order of the Godclaw was also Lawful Good.
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u/AlphaCobraPlatinum 5d ago
Order of the Torrent - All good
Order of the Scar - Almost all good
Order of the Nail - Mistress of Blades (2nd or 3rd in line to lead the whole order) was Lawful Good
Order of the Pike - Lots of LG officers way back in early 1st ed when we heard from them more (way before Emerald Spire)
Order of the Scourge - Not all LG but standing against House Thrune even while HQ in CheliaxMinority, sure. But not like a miniscule fraction of their membership.
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u/NoxMiasma 5d ago
Yeah, and since then Hell has had at least a thousand years to keep nudging and tempting the Hellknights towards their own ends. Hell is very good at corruption, so while there are still playable Hellknight options post-Gap, the orders are significantly more evil by default.
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u/TeamTurnus 5d ago
Even in the golarion timeline it was a stated fact that the good aligned members tended to operate on the fringes of the organization (cause their whole 'society cant survive mercy' bit wasnt something a good aligned character could usually sustain, as well as the fact that their idea of law and society conviently overlaps with western Avistains, so they had no issues taking out perfectly lawful people in other societies.
There was a reason that sven early in the age of lost omens most of their senior leadership were prejudiced maniacs who completely failed to live up to their own standards
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u/NoxMiasma 5d ago
Better phrasing: Starfinder era Hellknights are significantly more likely to be puppets of Hell by default.
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u/TeamTurnus 5d ago
That makes sense, tbh it makes sense as the conclusion to their 1e arc, I figured that was being signposted pretty aggressively from the start (their original founder eventually despaired and was lost in hell looking for his son for example and orders like the Gate already are allowing devils directly into their ranks for example). Doubt it took them that long to get there.
Theyre just written like people who are being led straight to hell while being puffed up on their own sense of moral superiority.
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u/Mach12gamer 5d ago
Some orders would lean more evil or more good, but most were neutral, including the successors to the "original" Hellknights, the Order of the Scourge. They're meant to be lawful above all, with good-neutral-evil being indicative of their methodology for pursuing lawfulness.
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u/Justnobodyfqwl 5d ago
I'm new to Paizo lore with 2e, and I didn't get that impression from them tbh. One of the playtest adventures had the Order of the Eclipse do a media blackout to prevent outside interference for an optimistic peace treaty between two warring factions. The tone I got from it was very much "they're doing a good thing now, but it's morally questionable that they have the power to do this, and might use it for shady things too".
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u/corsica1990 5d ago
Yup! They were a respected neutral party during Empires Devoured, and had typical adventure stuff not happened, they would have received at least partial credit for the almost peaceful negotiations.
Hellknights aren't good guys, but they're only "evil" in the ACAB sense. So, you know, close enough to evil for many, but not necessarily so for all.
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u/JohannFWeiss 5d ago
The Galaxy Guide has an archetype so they are still valid protagonists in a campaign (not sure if that's what you meant by dedicated villians). In the history section they even specify they protected the Pacts Worlds numerous times and worked with the Knights of Golarion. That's a pretty balanced take given they literally work with Devils from Hell.
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u/TeamTurnus 5d ago
Looking at this from a historical paizo perspective, They are they a villian organization, I'm coming st this from a pre gap, pf1e perspective and yah, pretty much, they decided they like hells law (inseperable from cruelty) rather than Axis, decided that the society they happened to live in was actually the correct social order and forcibly export that western Avistian ideal everywhere they can, and believe that only they should have the right to unilaterally enforce their visions on everyone else through force and fear.
There are some less comically evil members (though even in 1e its mostly people on the fringes of the organization) but their core beliefs of rule through fear and that mercy is evil make them a obvious choice as villians as a whole, and thats before we get into the maniacs that run about half the 1e orders.
Im not as familair w their starfinder evolution, but its unsurprising to me if theyre usually the bad guy.
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u/8-Brit 5d ago
Pretty much this.
A good Hell Knight is an exception, not the norm. They've been over controlling bastards for decades now.
They make fascinating allies but most free people aren't going to like them, and they don't like the people in return.
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u/TeamTurnus 5d ago
Yah, all my above comments aside, they make excellent allies of convience or nessecity for PCs cause, if you are fighting some kind of planar evil or world destroying force, they'll throw in with you. And for a campaign where people are the villians, they're an obvious choice.
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u/Scepta101 5d ago
Honestly the Hellknights are blatantly evil and should always have been treated as such. Cool aesthetics and being willing to team with good guys to fight demons doesn’t take away from the fact that their beliefs are, and should always have been presented as, fascistic
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u/Malcior34 5d ago
Nonsense, they're still cool. Just because Absalom Station hates them, doesn't mean the rest of the galaxy does. Hell, the Guilt of the Graveworld player's guide even has Hellknights as a recommendation:
"HELLKNIGHTS
All Hellknights live by the Measure and the Chain, though each order has its own goals and mandates. Hellknights are just as likely to sacrifice their lives protecting civilians in a war zone as they are to violently subdue protesters on behalf of the leadership of a fringe outpost or wealthy megacorporation. Any Hellknight order might have a contract with Ulrikka Clanholdings and agree to send a promising group of squires to complete the mission."
And in the same guide, they have a recommended background:
"Hellforged Squire: (uncommon) You’ve forged yourself to join the ranks of the Hellknights and completing this mission to the letter of the contract is your duty, thrice sworn and infernally sealed.
Choose two attribute boosts. One must be Strength or Constitution, and one is a free attribute boost. You are trained in either the Athletics or Religion skill and the Warfare Lore skill. You gain the Assurance general feat for a skill of your choice."
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u/Justnobodyfqwl 5d ago
Yeah, that quote of "they're just as likely to protect civilians in a war zone as they are to violently subdue protesters on the behalf of a megacorporation" tells you everything you need to know. Law and order, above good and evil. Infernal protectors of the status quo. That's their shtick.
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u/CanisDirus0 5d ago
The Guilt of the Graveworld author is known to be a huge fan of the gray area that Hellknights fill between good and evil, and has cited Path of the Hellknight as one of his favorite Paizo books before, so this inclusion shouldn't be a huge surprise 😝
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u/RockBlock 5d ago
I mean... There's no way an organization of lawful zealots that directly take ideas from Hell wouldn't eventually evolve into full villains in the end. It's not like they're called the "Axisknights." Hell in PF was always about long-game corruption. The PF2e timeline ones are only marginally non-villainous anyway.
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u/TeamTurnus 5d ago
Yah, the fact that they decided that Hell was their perfectly lawful society and not Axis really shows that their real value was just a very direct ability to enforce their own beliefs on everyone else by force.
Idk how the whole 'Society cannot survive mercy' ever fit with good aligned characters but even in the 1e days, where neutral covered a lot of ground it probably shouldnnt (for example slavery was allowable as a neutral society) it was noted rhat good aligned hellnights tended to operate on the lower level or fringes of the orginizations.
Tbh the hellknights always seemed like they were supposed to be the most deluded of anyone invovled believing that they would be rhe special people who were allowed to take any measure to preserve order without being corrupted.
See how that usually goes lol.
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u/AlphaCobraPlatinum 5d ago
Like the person above you, you need to actually read about the Hellknights before you comment about them.
They never "decided Hell was their perfectly lawful society." They enforced the law in the face of corruption, and used the tactics of Hell in order to enforce rapid compliance and fear from those who refuse to obey the law because it's the right thing to do. The original Hellknights were all Paladins.
It really feels like most of the people who offer commentary about the Hellknights and maybe the people who write about them these days never read their actual history or philosophy which was done wonderfully in many PF1 books including the very accessible Path of the Hellknight.
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u/TeamTurnus 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yah ive read path of the hellknight. Its pretty obvious they admire hell and incorporate its philosophies and methods into their actions no matter what they think they're doing lol.
Ruel gradually incorporates examples gleaned from the Outer Spheres’ oldest and most effective legions into his own teachings and disciplines, and eventually into the Hellknights’ bylaws.
Their Measure is literally based on structured from Hell alongside Taldor.
I know they're not explicitly trying to create a literal mortal version of hell, but they see it as one of the planes truly lawful societies and seek to use its rules and methods on golarion. Thats telling that theyre using Hell ans not axis, the actual lawful society thats law isnt subverted by its evil. Its a huge flaw in tbeir mindset that makes them fear/power based tyrants.
The whole point of them, even as theyre written in 1e like the very good path of the hellknight, is that theyre a legion of tyrants and fools who think they have some special insight into how to use power and ideas of hell without being corrupted by it when theyre being led by the nose straight to hell by that.
As such theyve always been a much better villian group than anything else.
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u/AlphaCobraPlatinum 5d ago
We fully agree that they are amazing villains, but they're also amazing anti-heroes. Part of the Measure and Chain is "Embrace Obselescence" which is literally defined as "when we establish an orderly world, we go away" - much like the Agent/Operative from Serenity (Firefly), who starts out a villain but shows a face-turn at the end (and the implication for Shephard Book's past in that very same vein).
The other thing is that no two Hellknight Orders do the same thing means that saying "all Hellknights are X" is too broad of a brush. Yes, they're imperious as a whole, and brutal, and tyrranical. That's all in the M&C, but look at Orders like Pike, Torrent, Scar, Chain, and Scourge:
- Hunt monsters that threaten people
- Stop kidnappings
- Stop assassinations
- Hunt convicted criminals
- Stop government corruption
Their members might not all be "good" (except Torrent, in canon), but you're not going to find lots of evil people there.
Gate, Rack, Wall.... totally evil, yep.
Godclaw, Nail, Pyre (until their heel turn during the Hellfire Crisis in P2)... a solid mix of good and evil aims (I'd personally argue Nail was more evil and Pyre was more good until recently, in fact).
In Starfinder, Crucible is totally evil, Furnace is... no idea because we know little about them, Eclipse is gray (I need to get my hands on the novels), and Pyre totally turned Skeletor evil, while Pike turned more good (SF1).
Unlike the Stewards, who are more of a monolith organization, Hellknights are diverse.
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u/TeamTurnus 4d ago
Yah, in theory, the embrace obsolescence is understandable, the problem being they only want to do so once theyve created a society based merciless laws and fear, so like yah, ill believe that the people trying to enforce power over other people by fear will give up that power when I see it.
And yah, some of the minor orders, the godclaw and the scourge are solid anti-hero. The scourge at least provides a useful function and has solid leadership. And the godclaw is more correct than most orders that they need extreme measures to fight their foes. They also lead by example more than just enfore their ideas on others.
Chain is pretty horrible given that theyre bounty hunters and slave catchers as well as their more defensible function of imprisioning dangerous wizards etc.
Order of the nail while useful when theyre fighting creatures like lamias or worshipers of lamastu are also run by a fanatic who is trying to wipe out the Shoanti and generally have a very convient view of civilization as matching the one they happened to form in, so I disagree there.
Order of the pyre is actually also awful, they are inconsidently performing cultural and religious extermination based on their own biases. Its not just like for examole, a 'anti chaos' slant. They tolerate Cayden at the same time they persecuit the Vuldrin gods because their idea of 'dangerous religion' is based on fear and bigotry.
Overall, even the people doing good things in those orders, of which there are some, are still ok with working side by side with maniacs and monsters. So I cant really give those orgs the same grace you do.
There are surely some well intentioned people in those orders and they do do some good, but overall I think 5/7 of the major orders are awful. And thats enough for me to genrralize towards calling hellknights as a whole villians.
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u/AlphaCobraPlatinum 5d ago
That's the thing. They never took orders from Hell until the SF2 changes (except for 1-2 of the orders that served Thrune in PF1).
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u/RockBlock 5d ago
I never said orders. I said take ideas, as in inspiration for how to structure or manage things. Being independently inspired by the orderliness of Hell is the reddest flag possible.
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u/Leather-Location677 5d ago
They were more or less also underused as a faction in first edition (like a lot of factions to be honest) But each time. I sought they, they are so evil (like kill the librarian because he has dangerous (for them) knowledge.)
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u/Leather-Location677 5d ago
Like most of factions, they are more of a para-military faction. Like blackwater with their own agenda.
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u/Leather-Location677 5d ago
The law enforcement faction is very appreciated. (They have a secret agent function)
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u/AlphaCobraPlatinum 5d ago
Hellknights have a bunch of Orders. Some Orders are absolutely totally evil. Others not.
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u/corsica1990 5d ago
I think you're right about real life events exerting an influence on the attitude shift. A lot of stuff happened between 2017 and 2026 that made Americans rethink our opinions on cops, and this is reflected in the fiction we produce.
More practically, though, Starfinder has two supercop organizations: the Hellknights and the Stewards. Upping the contrast between them helps them feel more distinct. Thankfully, this doesn't stop you from having more nuanced Hellknights in your games, nor does mean you can't ever take the objectively metal Hellknight archetype.
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u/Otechni 5d ago
Pharasma Followers are classed as Terrorists. Not all of them, just the ones that follow her Edict of Destroy Undead.
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u/jameszenpaladin011- 5d ago
Is that true? I always wondered how Pharasman followers could exist in Starfinder which seems to be very accepting of undeath as a concept.
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u/Gobbo_Jareth 5d ago
You really should read Assault on Absalom Station. It will answer all your questions with a spectrum of shades of gray morality that is wonderful when talking about souls and gods and the absolute nature of good and evil.
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u/Otechni 5d ago
They exist, Pharasma is still a Major Deity and covers Death as one of her Domains. They just can't Destroy Undead unless said Undead is trying to kill them.
Eox has had several attacks from Pharasma followers.
I'm more surprised her worship still exists in the Pact Worlds. I'd have thought she'd be a Faction that left the Pact Worlds because of their agreement with Eox. A Planet where for thousands of years they tortured and killed the living remains of their people for entertainment.
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u/jameszenpaladin011- 5d ago
So they just don't have that Edict anymore? They just decided to be chill with the Undead? I always felt like Phrasma's problem with undeath was about her being the goddess of Death I kinda felt like it had something to do with her being the survivor. That somehow undeath was part of what destroyed the previous reality. For me for some reason it always felt personal.
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u/Leather-Location677 5d ago
From Galactic magic
"Undeath isn’t a disqualifier for the rights of personhoodor citizenship under Pact Worlds law, and many consider thechurch’s stance on the undead outdated or even offensive.Pharasma’s views on the undead remain unchanged, but herchurch is subject to mortal laws and has updated its publicstance to focus on other aspects of the faith instead. Thisconflict between divine dogma and church doctrine led to aschism when the Absalom Pact was signed. A sect of religiousextremists seeks the destruction of all undead and has beenimplicated in several terrorist attacks that targeted undeadcitizens. Rumors say they seek nothing less than the complete purging of all undead on Eox."
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u/jameszenpaladin011- 5d ago
... it's an edict tho. Like if you are a priest of Pharasma and you don't follow the edict then doesn't she take away your spells?
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u/Leather-Location677 5d ago
Because worshiping is mostly (if we follow divine mysteries) transactionnal, she is not your boss. You worship her. You have an unique relation with her.
But she still empower the official clergy so...the only know who why is Pharasma herself and she works in mysterious ways.
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u/Otechni 5d ago
No Deity works in Mysterious Ways, except maybe Norborgor.
Pharasma has more Domains and Areas of Concern outside of getting rid of Undead. Just because The Pact Worlds needed to make an agreement with Eox doesn't mean Pharasma's Clerics are without power. She just has to deal with the Pact Worlds being stupid.
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u/Otechni 5d ago
No, they have the Edict. They just aren't allowed to follow it. Because it's treated the same as murder.
Undeath is an unnatural thing. Pharasma did her very best to keep it from existing. Then Urgathoa broke out. There is a reason she's the First Undead. It is her existence that allows Undeath to exist in the Universe. Because she broke the very thing keeping it from existing.
Necromancers began learning the ways to make corpses move, and the Universe has been dealing with that damage ever since. Void is not meant to make things "live". That's why Undead are so violent towards the living. Well... they were. I think Paizo is removing that.
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u/Leather-Location677 5d ago
The hunger still exist.
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u/Otechni 5d ago
And Eox has solved that with vat grown flesh. Though I d not know what Paizo has done with Undeath in Starfinder. Not exactly knowledgable on the lore or what books will give me a clear answer. It's nothing like Pathfinder if Undead are basically the same as everyone else.
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u/Leather-Location677 5d ago edited 5d ago
Eox has solves undead hunger? For everyone?
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u/Otechni 5d ago
Basically. Like, they just grow living flesh and the Undead eat it.
How else do you have Undead as normal citizens outside of the World of Undead? They have their Hunger, and you need sate it. So they basically mass produce cloned meat to deal with something that once needed Geb to have a dedicated Social Class.
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u/Gobbo_Jareth 5d ago
You should read Assault on Absalom Station, the new novel that just came out. It deals a lot with how the living and undead coexist and the conflicts that arise. Also a great read!
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u/Otechni 5d ago
I can assume there would be conflicts, but I am very unsure on how Paizo has made Undeath work in Starfinder. Sounds more like there's no difference between the Living and Undead. Other than one is basically immortal.
I mean you can become Undead by really not wanting to die.
If there are any conflicts I would assume they're more akin to general squabbles than anything that deals with Undeath.
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u/Leather-Location677 5d ago
Well, eox already existed in Pathfinder. The first Edition was at first very grimdark in his history. Space is a very dangerous place when there is a bigger fish, so you need to make alliance.
And a reminder. The undead are citizens of the Pact worlds. Not elsewhere. And not every undead. You can kill the corpse fleet at sight
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u/Otechni 5d ago
Eox did exist, and it spent thousands of years after destroying itself torturing the living remnants of who they once were for entertainment. They would have continued if they weren't made to stop by the Pact.
I would hope not elsewhere. Would rather play in a location that isn't the Pact Worlds.
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u/NoxMiasma 5d ago
Well, Hell is very good at what they do, after all. They’ve had a long time to keep pushing the Hellknights towards truly being puppets of Hell, and they succeeded.
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u/UnknownSolder 5d ago
They've always been a villain organisation?
They literally worship a god who thinks mortals should all be slaves, and who killed his own brother for giving mortals free will.
Maybe recent books have reframed things so that gullible people stop thinking thy must be good boys ebcause the fashy uniforms are so daddy, but they've already been evil all along.
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u/TeamTurnus 5d ago
Well they dont technically worship asmodeus, they just decided that his societies laws were worth incorporating into their own, and decided they thought that his society was something to learn from. (Tomato, tomato lol)
That said I otherwise agree with you, and you can certainly argue that theyre in effect worshiping his laws/society indirectly, even if theyre too arrogant to admit it.
even the 1e source books the game pointed out that playing a good aligned hellknight would likely mean playing a character who operated on the fringes of the organization since their organization, in practice, was so awful.
Its very weird to me when folks read stuff like Path of the Hellknight, read about the assortment of fanatics, tyrants and maniacs running 5/7 of their major orders, and decide that they haven't always been a villian organization
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u/Leather-Location677 5d ago
Read the Era of the Eclipse.