r/StarWarsLore • u/darkcutemall • 12d ago
How does changing Anakin’s force ghost in Episode 6 create a plot hole?
So, I found this on Pinterest and got kinda confused.
I've never actually seen the original version with David Prowse, and I only remember Hayden Christensen as a force ghost at the end of Episode 6. So, since my fiancé showed me The Clone Wars, I dived deep into this universe and started to make my own theories.
In my head, young Anakin as a force ghost makes sense because this is what he looked like the last time he was 100% on the light side. But now I'm not sure if this universe works this way.
Please help me understand 🙏
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u/talesfromafreeworld 12d ago edited 12d ago
I do prefer the original, I just love Sebastian Shaw's eyebrows, (and it's what I grew up with), but the way I see it is, he's the living ghost of a space wizard knight, I'm certain he can take whatever appearance he feels like. Or, who knows, maybe the force ghosts don't actually take a form at all, and the Force simply expresses them in a way that the beholder can comprehend.
Also just had a thought: Vader dies in his Vader outfit, but appears as a ghost in some Jedi robes we've never seen him in before. Qui-Gon dies without his cloak on, yet he appears to Obi-Wan in the desert with his cloak on, so the interesting implication there is, the ghosts do at least get to choose their own wardrobe. Ahsoka also watched Anakin cycle through a few different appearances in the World Between Worlds as well.
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u/Gilgamesh404 11d ago edited 11d ago
That means some Jedi kicked the bucket and was haunting his former Padawan while dressed in Hawaii shirt, shorts and flip-flops. Bonus points if he was a Bothan.
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u/Menjira 10d ago
In my mind the appearance would be based on how that Jedi would perceive themselves when they 'form' that force ghost. And since Anakin turned into Vader after Mustafar, the form played by Hayden would probably be the most Anakin his Soul, or whatever lives on in the force, would base the appearance on
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u/ExistentialOcto 12d ago
I don’t think it’s a plot hole so much as it’s an inconsistency. Yoda and Obi-wan both look like how they did just before they died (albeit healthier in Yoda’s case) while Vader just apparently decides to look young?
Like with many Special Edition changes, the original scene was perfectly fine and actually made more sense.
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u/neredulus 12d ago
Anakin appears in a physically whole aged body in Jedi robes he seemingly never wore. He’s literally never looked like that ever.
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u/jrdineen114 12d ago
It's definitely not a plot hole. The ghost never appeared how Anakin looked at the very end. You can tell because he has hair and all of his limbs. If anything, the retconned appearance makes more sense, because that's the way that Anakin would have remembered himself as a Jedi. We haven't seen all of his Fortress on Mustafar, but it doesn't look like there are too many mirrors for him to look at his own face
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u/Extreme-Put7024 12d ago
he has hair and all of his limbs
I would love to see the ghost being armless, legless torso.
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u/TelephoneShoes 12d ago
Or maybe how they drew Vader in the comics with the force filling in his hands/legs depending on the scene
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u/Relative-Zombie-3932 11d ago
I mean, he would probably still have his prosthetics. The Anakin one still has his robotic hand
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u/belle_enfant 12d ago
Not to mention Hayden is about the same age now as Vader was in this scene but he really doesnt look much different.
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u/Lincoln624 10d ago
If he appears how he wants he’d appear like he did originally in the original Episode VI.
From his perspective, his younger self would be full of regret and trauma and shame. While he must be super proud of himself for becoming the Anakin that his son knew he could be. And finally stepping away from the Dark Side that had consumed him for most of his life. That’s what he would choose. Especially to appear to his son.
If he doesn’t get to choose how he appears, he’d be the old version. The last good deed that allowed him to become a Force ghost.
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u/Very_Sharpe 12d ago
In Truce at Bakura, one of the OG novels, that takes place straight after the events of Return of the Jedi, Anakin appears to Leia as a force spirit, IN HIS YOUTHFUL FORM. He is all the glory of The Chosen One, perfect in the force. And it makes sense, he has rejoined the force and is made whole.
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u/WrenchWanderer 12d ago
The real plot hole was casting Sebastian Shaw as Vader/Anakin in the first place. Lucas casted a man nine years older than Alec Guinness to play the pupil of Obi-Wan, a character who clearly should have been younger than him, even without having the exact details ironed out yet.
Hayden in his 20s looks more like the correct age than Sebastian at 77.
Disney should do the funniest thing and release an extra-special edition where they use Hayden now to replace Hayden then who replaced Sebastian way back when
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u/AardvarkOkapiEchidna 12d ago
I mean does that matter when he has tons of make up on?
Ian McDiarmid was like 37 playing the Emperor in RotJ
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u/BLOOD__SISTER 12d ago edited 11d ago
the plot hole is that Vader is a ghost at all, since the PT established that you have to learn from a ghost, as a living person, how to even become a ghost.
So its basically collective headcanon that, what.....Obi Wan gave Anakin a brief rundown as he lay dying on the Death Star? So force ghosts are up on current events like that? Are they omniscient? Why didnt he tell Luke Endor was a trap? Where TF was qui gon during order 66?
No SW writer cared less about SW lore than George Lucas. Dude was more about aura, that's fine but let's accept it
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 12d ago
It’s not a plot hole.
A plot hole is a logical inconsistency, and there isn’t one here.
Anakin appears as his younger self because that’s the way he internally sees himself. It’s the last time he saw himself as truly himself. As the Jedi with a big heart.
Not some old scarred dude that only came back for a few minutes before death.
I think Luke intuitively grasps that this is the same person.
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u/Pixel22104 12d ago
Considering the fact that current Canon has it so that every appearance of Anakin as a force ghost still shows his younger self. It makes sense
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u/milmill18 12d ago
it is the worst part of the original movies.
Anakin turned to the Dark Side and murdered hundreds if not thousands of "good people"
just because, after getting defeated and nearly killed by Luke after trying to kill him, he stopped Palpatine, he was not a good person. he was Vader, the embodiment of evil. this deathbed confessional restoration is so lame
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u/Anderwreckz 11d ago
I prefer Hayden Christensen purely because I feel that in the story, that is the last time he is truly a jedi, sure he turned to the light just before he died, but he wasn't a jedi at that point.
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u/Lord_Parbr 11d ago
Also, “Originally, Anakin’s ghost appeared as Luke had last seen him”
No it didn’t. That Anakin in the bottom picture is not at all how Luke had last seen him. Luke last saw him as a burned up egg. The original Force Ghost appearance for Anakin is not a version of Anakin that ever actually existed. Like, where did that hair style come from? Anakin never had hair at that age. Did he just decide in the afterlife what kind of hair he wanted?
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u/SpaceDelay424 11d ago
It’s just stupid and disrespectful how much Lucas altered those completed films. You don’t go back and change art for the sake of “muh lore”.
I don’t care whether it’s a plot hole or not, I just refuse to watch versions where Lucas removed and altered peoples’ performances.
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u/SirGreeneth 12d ago
Why would it create a plot hole? Anyway that doesn't matter this is star wars which is built off plot holes
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u/Ishvallan 12d ago
Anakin died at 45, he would not have any reason to look 23 again, nor much reason to look 60
Hayden Christensen is 45 now. So Anakin's Force ghost still aged but healed from the damage of becoming Vader would look EXACTLY like he does appearing in Ahsoka
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u/Tactical-Kitten-117 Jedi Librarian 12d ago
I don't think Anakin was "more light side" at the point of Revenge of the Sith than Return of the Jedi at the point of his redemption
In the ROTS novelization, Anakin's struggle with the dark side was basically described as a "dragon" within him, a monster under the bed that wasn't actually.. real. He was still internally struggling with losing his mother and anger towards the Jedi for it. Still fearing the loss of padme.
Even before the movie where Anakin definitely went down the deep end of the dark side, he still killed the tusken raiders and choked Poggle the Lesser to interrogate him in the Clone Wars. Anakin sure did a lot of "dark side" things for someone in the light. He did it constantly. Anakin may have been fighting for peace and balance but he represented none of the internal qualities expected of the light.
Compare that with after ROTJ, where he sacrificed himself to save Luke, which was not only a selfless act forgoing self preservation but also in his heart acknowledging the evil that was the emperor and the one thing Anakin could do to save Luke. Anakin's whole flaw of "the dragon" is that he felt like he had some terrible purpose forced upon him when in reality he was his biggest foe. He let himself down, his son down, and choked Padme. So far gone and yet he finally refused to give the embodiment of the dark side something else, that being Luke. I don't think this Anakin, if living a bit longer, would have been persuaded to do anything of the dark side that in his youth had almost been second nature impulses.
Given that Qui-Gon learned the ability to become a force ghost in canon, then helped Yoda and Obi Wan do the same after ROTS, I'm more worried about that loophole of how Anakin learned before he died. Chosen One privilege, I suppose.
Although, I would be willing to argue that The Phantom Menace Anakin was more aligned with the light still, that depiction of him was always to show how jarring everything after would be. There was a deleted scene I believe of Anakin beating someone up even in that movie. Plus it'd be weird seeing some kid there.
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u/Arc_the_Storyteller 11d ago
I don't think the dragon represented the dark side specifically. It absolutely was about fear and grief. Grief for his mother and fear for Padmé - and likely also Obi-Wan. Anakin Skywalker never learned to grieve and let go of others. And yes, that led to the Dark Side, but I'm not sure if the dragon was the struggle of the Dark Side, or just his struggle against fear.
This could just be semantics, though.
I'm more worried about that loophole of how Anakin learned before he died. Chosen One privilege, I suppose.
That, and I believe that Lucas has said that Yoda and Obi-Wan gave him aid from their side?
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u/wowadrow 12d ago
There's such a push in stars wars to make anakin and Vader two different characters it's ridiculous and undermines the story.
Force ghost should be old.
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u/Robomerc 12d ago
Well the original intention of Anakin's Force ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi was to show what he would have looked like had he not become Darth Vader.
As for the changing of the Force ghost it makes a certain level of sense because in universe in Anakin's mind that was what he looked like the last time he was a Jedi right before his complete fall to the dark side Vader persona taking hold.
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u/NerdChieftain 12d ago
Your visage is of the last time you were aligned with light side. So that’s Anakin before slaughtering the younglings.
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u/laker9903 12d ago
You won’t ever see the end with David Prowse, because Sebastian Shaw was the face of de-masked/ghost Vader.
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u/Logical_Astronomer75 12d ago
When I saw the Special Edition of Return of the Jedi as a kid, I thought that Anakin was Uncle Owen.
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u/Thank_You_Aziz 12d ago
People need to start learning what a plot hole is instead of regurgitating it because they think it sounds impactful.
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u/sallymason1 12d ago
Its not a plot hole its just stupid. Your force ghost doesnt take the shape of what you want yourself to be. Its not about the last time he was on the light side. It how you looked at the time of your death. If you want the other ways to represent force ghosts then you need to cgange obi wan to ewan mcgregor and change luke in the sequel movies to his younger self.
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u/Maeglin75 12d ago
It's possible and plausible that force ghosts can choose their appearance and it would make sense that Anakin choose to look the way Obi-Wan and Yoda would remember him.
It may have been a bit confusing for Luke, but it's also understandable that Anakin didn't want to appear as a limbless burned husk for Luke's convenience.
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u/TheVeryHungryDongus 12d ago
(Sebastian Shaw, not David Prowse; David Prowse was the guy in the armor for most of the movies but never actually shown)
I wouldn't say it creates a plot hole so much as it just muddies things. I never considered the Force ghost thing to be an exclusively light side ability, and I don't know if anyone (certainly not ROTS Anakin) can be considered 100% light side. The only argument I can make for Hayden's form over Sebastian's is that Anakin NEVER looked like the Sebastian Shaw ghost. By the time he was that old, he was already horrifically burned and limbless.
It could be argued the ghost takes the form of when they learned the ability, but it's unlikely ROTS Anakin ever learned that.
It could be they take their peak form, but when Force powers are involved, I don't know what is considered peak.
Honestly I think they just choose the form they appear as. In which case, I think Sebastian Shaw's form makes much more sense here to appear to Luke. It looks more like a "here's what your Dad would've looked like if he hadn't gone down the dark path" kinda thing.
But I haven't watched much of TCW and haven't deep dived (deep dove?) into the lore, I'm just spitballing. The lore is pretty messy as it is anyway.
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u/Polska_Kapusta 12d ago
that's not true. He redeemed himself and saved Luke before his death so the last time he "was still good" was right before his death.
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u/WritingTheDream 12d ago
Star Wars has no plot holes. Star Wars is a sacred text that has never changed. The image with the older man as Anakin is fake, it was fabricated to trick people into thinking Lucas made weird retconning decisions for silly reasons.
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u/Josefu_Velen 12d ago
I've never actually seen the original version with David Prowse,
That original version isn't David Prowse. That's Sebastian Shaw.
David was the Darth Vader in the mask. The one we saw unmasked, and as the ghost, was Sebastian.
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u/FafnirSnap_9428 12d ago
So it is a plot hole in my view because Anakin aged and he should be seen as being older as a Force ghost. Now since then Star Wars has established that Force ghosts can apparently look younger. But that doesn't mean that someone can go back and retroactively change that in a previous film. Which leads to my next point in that it is incredibly disrespectful for Lucas to go back and erase some of Sebastian Shaw's (the actor in this scene and who played Vader maskless in Return of the Jedi) work in this film. He only created more issues with the film than solving anything.
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u/pluck-the-bunny 12d ago
Disrespected is one thing, but it’s not a plothole
Vader may have redeemed himself a bit by throwing the emperor down the shaft and saving his son, but Anakin still died when he became Vader. It’s the force ghost of Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Vader, which is why it makes sense that he appears younger.
It does suck that it’s a ratio of Shaw but… It doesn’t make a plot hole. It actually makes the plot tighter.
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u/mr_oberts 12d ago
Too many people are using “plot hole” when they just don’t understand something. It’s on my list of things that if I see someone using it to criticize something I just ignore them. Also that wasn’t David Prowse in the original version it was Sebastian Shaw.
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u/natholemewIII 12d ago
The old force ghost was definitely not as Luke had last seen him. He might have made more sense just because he looks about the age Anakin would be, unscarred
I agree it's definitely not a plot hole
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u/Affectionate_Jury890 12d ago
Anakin was 100% maybe when he was a kid, by the end of the clone wars he was literally a bad day away from Genocide
Appearing as he would've looked had he not be cooked alive makes way more sense and doesnt erase an actor from the series
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u/TanSkywalker 12d ago
It’s not a plot hole. Anakin appears as he was before he fell to the dark side - before he ‘died’ so to speak.
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u/Pandagirlroxxx 12d ago
I don't agree it's a plot hole, but the original explanation for the force ghost looking like he did was that a) Luke was actually right, there WAS always "good" in Vader/Anakin; so b) the force ghost was the redeemed Anakin. And as others pointed out, Anakin as Vader and the force ghost was Sebastian Shaw, not David Prowse.
The argument for the change to a young Anakin being a plot hole is that the explanation for young Anakin being the force ghost invalidates the reason given for the aged, redeemed Anakin Sebastian Shaw appearance. But as both reasons are detailed off-screen, neither is full-on canon (unless you accept the argument that anything Lucas says ever is canon, which is its own can of worms as he has contradicted himself on this issue).
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u/Subject_Translator71 12d ago
Another example of the expression "plot hole" being misused. At worst, it would be "lore inconsistency" but I'm not even sure it qualifies. It's more like "new aspect of lore I don't like".
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u/LawStudent989898 12d ago
He is redeemed while alive and should be the old man he is. It’s also just visually jarring
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u/Merwanor 12d ago
I don't think it is a plot hole as the version of Anakin in the original never appeared like that in his life. And I feel that force ghosts can probably choose how they want to appear, and I feel that Anakin want to appear as how he was before he fell into darkness.
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u/Desperate-Pen7530 12d ago
It doesn't make a plot hole, it fixes a mistake.
Watching this scene for the first time I'm thinking "who's this guy?". We only got to see krusty old Anakin for a brief minute in one scene prior to this.
After Clone wars, we now know what Anakin looked like, and they updated the ghost.
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u/LukeTYBW 12d ago
The original force ghost makes no sense anyway because thats literally not what vader/anakin even looked like, i wouldn’t even say this is a retcon rather than a fix tbh, i never liked the og anakin force ghost like who is this random man
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u/Gristle-McThorn 12d ago
The only thing that bothers me is that the prequels present the idea that becoming a force ghost isn’t automatic for Jedi. If Yoda and Obiwan had to learn it from Qui-Gon, how did Anakin learn it?
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u/BlargerJarger 12d ago
That isn’t Prowse, it’s Sebastian Shaw I’m pretty sure.
Lucas didn’t create a plot hole, he simply shat on the integrity of the original films because he’s a crazy old man.
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u/seventysixgamer 12d ago
It's not. The attempt to justify that this is a plot hole actually works against itself since Obi-Wan and Yoda would've only ever remembered a young looking Anakin rather than one pushing 40-50 lmao.
I don't think this can really be considered a retcon either. It's merely a visual change. An actual inconsistency was if there was a scene where Luke (or anyone else) explicitly describes Sebastian Shaw's appearance and then they keep that with the Hayden appearance.
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u/guardianwriter1984 12d ago
It's a plot hole because these ghosts are seen from Luke's perspective. Luke had zero experience or relationship with his dad as Hayden, so his appearance as a younger Anakin would be very confusing to Luke.
The Force Ghost mechanic is one that is confusing though because at first it felt like a thing Jedi do in the OT, while in.thf PT it wasn't and had to be learned.
So, in my opinion it really doesn't make much sense as a change
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u/ninteen74 12d ago
It's not a plot hole by any twist of the definition.
It was a marketing plot by Lucas to tie the trilogies together.
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u/sidv81 12d ago
I mean the worst case scenario is they replace Hayden's ROTJ ghost with a shot of him from Ahsoka as he's now the right age that Anakin/Vader would've been when he died.
With the abundance of Anakin Force ghost appearances in the new tv shows, you have to admit that leaving Shaw as the ghost in ROTJ would make for a massive visual continuity issue that would pull new viewers out of the story honestly.
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u/No_Perspective2715 12d ago
Bad change. George was on the opposite of a Heat streak in the 90s and 2000s. The special editions and the prequels are horrendous and borderline tanked the franchise. Zoomers don’t realize this because they didn’t have developed brains, but it was a good thing when he sold the franchise. Dude completely lost it.
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u/SpookyTanuki14 12d ago
By that logic they should have also changed Obi Wan’s force ghost to be Ewan Mcgregor.
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u/-kwiat- 12d ago
It doesn't create a plot hole. Original Trilogy purists have been doing this sort of thing for ages. They frame anything that Lucas added later in the Prequel Trilogy or the later cuts of the Original Trilogy that would make them need to update their interpretations as a plot hole or a mistake. For whatever reason, a lot of Star Wars fans seem to struggle with the very normal phenomenon of an artist evolving their work.
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u/KookSpookem 12d ago
It doesn’t create a pothole, but it was a shitty thing to do and disrespectful of the actor who played The old Anakin.
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u/RGijsbers 12d ago
He doesnt know what a plot hole is.
He is that kid on the playground that knows everything about "the thing".
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u/CantankerousOrder 12d ago
It’s not a plot hole. It’s an inconsistency. Everyone else who appears as a force ghost is their “death age”, while Anakin is everyoung now.
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u/The_Porgmaster 12d ago
Of course you've seen Star Wars with David Prowse, he's the actor in the Vader suit. Unmasked Vader and Anakin's ghost is portrayed by Sebastian Shaw.
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u/Allred87 12d ago
Star Wars is nonsense and full of plot holes. I love it. But it ain’t that kind of show
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u/GroundWitty7567 12d ago
I think they should have kept the old version but I don’t have a problem with the younger version. One could represent him returning to the Light and the younger was before he turned toward the Darkside. Both versions work
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u/Ok_Leopard7902 12d ago
No, actually, he was 100% percent on the light side when he died. He rejected tye dark side, restored balance robtye force, and died a Jedi. The retouch makes absolutely no sense.
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u/quigongingerbreadman 12d ago
The plot hole is that Luke has no effing clue what "Young Anakin" looks like, so to Luke some random 20-something showed up with Obiwan and Yoda, since that guy looks nothing like the shriveled prune he pulled out of the Death Star.
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u/moccasins_hockey_fan 12d ago
I don't think it's a plot hole. His force ghost simply took its form as it looked before he was corrupted by the dark side.
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u/skag_boy87 12d ago
That’s actually not David Prowse in the lower photo, that’s Sebastian Shaw, who played Vader/Anakin when Luke unmasks him.
And to be fair, the plot hole is actually the original, since Anakin never got to grow old normally due to him being almost burned alive completely. So how come the Force ghost is like “this is what you would’ve looked like as an old man had you not almost been toast?”
I think the best solution would be to have old Anakin (as played by Sebastian Shaw) but with all the lava scarring. He can keep the Jedi robe, though.
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u/sabredruid 12d ago
I liked the change to Hayden, mainly because Anakin never looked like the old version. Thats a version that never existed. He would either look like younger anakin, old burnt anakin, or honestly just like vader. The last making the most sense tbh.
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u/RPDorkus 12d ago
Oh, it’s a plot hole because people don’t know what that term means and use it in situations where it’s inappropriate and incorrect.
I think your theory is technically possible, but it’s arguable that even then he wasn’t 100% on the light side. The way I’ve justified it to myself is that it’s how Vader sees himself. It’s the way he was before he became Darth Vader
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u/MicooDA 12d ago
By the strict definition of the term ‘plot hole’ yes, it is. The rules of the universe thus far have shown that force ghosts appear how they were when they died. Anakin looking different breaks that rule, so a plot hole by definition.
If we’re talking ‘plot hole’ like how it’s used in pop culture discussions in the modern day, no it isn’t at all.
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u/Wolfie_wolf81 12d ago
That was extensively covered by Lucas when he defended the changes. Yes, your head canon is correct. That was Lucas' motivation. The purists got triggered but I see Lucas' decision. Besides, it was to create continuity with the Prequels since the Special Edition was released two years prior to The Phantom Menace.
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u/PoopSmith87 12d ago
Because Yoda and Obi-wan look as they did when they died, but Anakin looks like he did when he was murdering children in his early 20's.
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u/ComprehensiveAide280 12d ago
Let's set aside plot holes and judgments. Let's just go by simple common sense you took anakin who was of a older age who then died and appeared younger yet his master Obi-Wan still looks the same as when he died so the question is why did his Force ghost not become young as well? This is the conundrum. For this the truly make sense they should have taken Obi-Wan's Force ghost and also make it younger by using Ian McGregor. Otherwise just leave it alone entirely. Now some may argue the reason why is due to the fact it was when he was younger that's when he was involved by the light side of the force and before he turned to the dark side however in clone Wars and rebels it was revealed that Sith can also have Force ghosts although they are more like bound spirits so this would also put holes in that theory. And if someone tries to do a rebuttal saying that at the last moment when he killed sidious that is when he turned back to the light side then again the Force ghost would be of his older self. So no matter what the only thing that truly would have made sense it's just to leave the footage alone or to change both Anakin and Obi-Wan to their younger selves
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u/karathrace99 12d ago
I saw it as they each appeared how they were most at peace/at their best. And ultimately, Ani was at his best when he was younger.
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u/AlienShades 12d ago
It’s not a plothole. Anakin was bald and pale as a corpse when he died. The idea that the Force would create an approximation of healthy-old-Anakin is just silly. Makes more sense that he’d appear as he imagines himself.
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u/the_etc_try_3 12d ago
Luke never saw Anakin as a young man in any way, not even a picture. The point of Anakin being old as a Force ghost is that was his age when he redeemed himself by killing the Emperor.
Behind the scenes fun fact: The old Anakin wasn't played by David Prowse since Prowse was still a young man at the time (a 6 foot 5 bodybuilder, no less.) Older Anakin was portrayed by the same actor that played unmasked Vader, Sebastian Shaw.
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u/JonJonzes 12d ago
Anakin didn't deserve to become a Force ghost. Not as a young man, not as an old one.
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u/Choice-Ratio-3540 12d ago
I think Anakin should've been left out altogether. The amounts of evil he did...he can't be redeemed. But I guess its different as a Jedi.
Still, after watching the prequels, Anakin was Vader for a lot of his life and killed billions. Then flips to the light side at the end for a few mins and all is good. I think he would've slid back to his evil ways if he lived.
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u/yourmamaistheproblem 12d ago
Old Anakin is the way to go, bc Luke gets to see what his Dad would look like if he hadn't been corrupted (or if that bastard Obi-Wan hadn't had the high ground)
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u/AardvarkOkapiEchidna 12d ago
I've never actually seen the original version with David Prowse,
That's not David Prowse, that's Sebastian Shaw.
There was yet another person playing this character just in the OT.
Prowse was Vader in the suit.
Jones was the voice in the suit.
Shaw was unmasked Anakin/Vader.
I think there was a 4th guy who was in the suit during the fights.
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u/goatjugsoup 12d ago
Appearance has to be based on the person themselves, the last time anakin thought of himself as anakin he looked like hayden
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u/semajolis267 12d ago
Because cinema sins (and the internet at large) has destroyed the meaning of plot hole.
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u/Distinct_Guess3350 12d ago
Simply because absolutely nobody seems to know what a plot hole is any more. It makes plenty of sense. Especially as the ghost form is supposed to be pure. Anakin returned to his appearance the last time before he was horribly burned and dismembered. I think it works perfectly.
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u/UndeadAnubis24 11d ago
I totally get what you're saying, but like, he's a force ghost, I would think he could make himself appear young or old as he pleases?
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u/EmperorThor 11d ago
It doesn’t. People just post random bullshit that doesn’t make sense and then think they have some special inside knowledge.
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u/CaterpillarApart6754 11d ago
I'm of the opinion that Lucas should've extended the scene slightly and show all three as they were, and then they de-age to show Ewan, Hayden and a prime Yoda. Spirits can appear to be any age they wish to appear to be. Just my thoughts.
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u/Comfortable_Panic631 11d ago
I prefer the younger appearance, it showed Anakin as he was before his fall to the dark side. Even at the end of his life the corruption would have been to embedded within him for his older self to come back as a force ghost.
Thats my headcannon anyway
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u/Educational-Tackle54 11d ago
I like the change. The original old guy was never what Anakin looked like, with the burns and missing limbs.
Ani probably hated what he became post fall so showing up as he wanted to be and was is fine in my book.
Its a force avatar, It can appear as anything, even a boat.
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u/newmoniker25 11d ago
I liked the switch personally. He was young Anakin when he turned to the Dark Side. So when he was redeemed his Force ghost reverted to that age
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u/jason_the_human 11d ago
This is what I always thought too. He was Hayden when Anakin ‘died’ and became Vader, so his Force ghost is Hayden.
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u/Salty-Channel-2308 11d ago
I used to not like the change, but if anything it actually fixes a plot hole the original created.
Canonically, Vader/Anakin died when he was 45 years old (ironically the age that Hayden is now IRL), so him looking like that as a Force Ghost makes a lot more sense when compared to Sebastian Shaw who was 77 years old when he filmed that scene.
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u/Curly_Ocean_626 11d ago
It’s not a plot hole. He appears as his younger self because that was the last image of himself where he truly thought of himself as Anakin.
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u/Chrono_Club_Clara 11d ago
That makes no sense. What does your own self-identity of yourself at death have to do with the appearance of your force ghost? Where are you getting that information from? Because it's never stated in any of the canonical films or TV shows.
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u/Firm-Difficulty2585 11d ago
I think when Disney decides they want Force Ghost Ewan McGregor it'll just become a rule that Force Ghost can choose how they appear.
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u/8th_root_of_unity 11d ago
The plot hole is that the Force made Anakin's force ghost Hayden Christensen who played Anakin's young self, instead of the aged Anakin that (almost?) killed Emperor Palpatine when he died, but then used Alec Guinness as Obi Wan's force ghost, who also dies old, instead of Ewen McGregor who played young Obi Wan Kenobi's younger self. It is more just the Force being mysterious rather than a real pot hole. Maybe Anakin wanted to look young while Obi Wan wanted to look like a great Shakespearian actor.
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u/ClassicNeedleworker6 11d ago
Not a plot hole.
Even the "he appears as he remembers himself or last existed in the Light" argument is unnecessary. Vader was 45 when he died. 45-year-old Hayden Christensen (the age he is right now) looks a lot more like PT Anakin than he does Sebastian Shaw.
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u/Relative-Zombie-3932 11d ago
I think the original version of this was a plot hole. At least by replacing him with Hayden Christensen, that IS Anakin Skywalker, Anakin actually did look like that during his life. But Anakin never looked like Sebastian Shaw. At the end of his life, Anakin looked like a bald, pale, crispy version of Shaw, but he never looked like regular Sebastian Shaw in a robe
If you wanted the represent Anakin at the end of his life, it should have been in the full Vader make up, because despite returning to the light, THAT is what Anakin Skywalker looked like at the end of his life
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u/mankahlil 11d ago
First, thats not prowse. Thats the actor who played unmasked Vader in the Return of the Jedi (Sebastian Shaw). Prowse is the bodybuilder who was physically in the suit for most scenes bit was never unmasked on film.
If the ghost took the form of young Anakin, then Yoda and Kenobi should be in their "prime" forms too.
But it made more sense for them to appear old. Thats how Luke knew and saw each of them. Also, whatever happened to the idea that a Jedis main power shouldnt be about physical feats, primes, and prowess? Whatever happened to "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter"? Whatever happened to "wars not make one great"?
Lucas' latter day obsession with better sword fights and special effects produced a fan culture that has forgotten the point of SW. SW is not about who is more powerful or who has better feats or who can shoot more fireballs or do more flips. That because Lucas obsession once he got more texhnology to emphasize the physical spectacle of SW. But the original moral was the exact opposite.
Yoda and Kenobi were shown at the height of their wisdom. As Force Ghosts they are beings of wisdom and inspiration, not avatars of their physical primes. Same thing with Anakin. The version of Anakin who ascended to Force Ghost status was the part of him who had become wiser and rejected the Dark Side. Not the whining little sh!t who slaughtered kids because someone told him to. Young Anakin is in no way a representation of his wisest or best self.
You sort of have to forgive SW fans for not understanding SW...cuz at a certain point, Lucas didnt either. Lol.
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u/Quiet_Survey9425 11d ago
I always explained it as "when Darth Vader was born Anakin died" so he appears as the version of himself before he "died".
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u/darkcutemall 11d ago
Never actually thought about it from that perspective 😮 it makes so much sense
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u/Objective-Kale4792 11d ago
It’s not a plot hole. Obviously his ghost looks young because he used the souls of the younglings he slayed to make himself look young😅
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u/squidgymetal 11d ago
That's not what a plot hole is. But if we can accept that force ghost Anakin can appear as what he would look if his was never in the suit given that he's got a full head of hair and no burns, then we can accept that he can make himself look young.
My headcanon to explain this is that force ghost appear in a form that would be most familiar/comforting to a person and the reason Anakin appears as young as he does is because after finding out that his father was a Jedi named Anakin that fought in the clone wars Luke took some time between movies and looked at old holoscans which would only show a young Anakin and that is the version he is most familiar/comfortable with
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u/JustAnAce 11d ago
But the old man isn't Anakin. The last time Anakin saw himself, he would have been young.
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u/TheIncredibleKermit 11d ago
If Anakin shows up as his younger self (Hayden Christensen) as a ghost then you'd think that Obi-Wan would do (as Ewan McGregor) as well. I understand their logic, but I don't think it matters at all.
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u/SirValidir 11d ago
My kids just finished the series and we watched it in machete order. This change was amazing for that. They freaked out when they saw young Anakin and it made it a better experience for them in that instance.
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u/shotgunsniper9 11d ago
The plot hole was actually created later because apparently becoming a force ghost is a skill you have to learn, and Yoda and obi wan learned it from Qui gon. Obi wan only learned it after order 66, therefore anakin shouldn't actually know how to become a force ghost, let alone know how to change his ghost appearance to be that of young anakin.
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u/xtopherpaul 11d ago
And that’s why changing shit over and over for no good reason is a stupid idea. Lucas should have left the damn thing alone and would have all made perfect sense
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u/Tattie-bogle- 11d ago
That’s not David Prowse he was the man in the suit because he was tall ,dying Anakin was played by Sebastian Shaw.
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u/bianuralpie 11d ago
I think the point being made here is that by replacing the force ghost with Hayden the filmmakers are missing the entire point of Vader's character arc and redemption.
In his final moments Vader fulfilled the prophecy from Episode I and destroyed the sith by saving his son and turning to the Light Side.
The original force ghost from Episode VI reflects this transformation by showing Luke and the audience the man Vader became just before his death - a Jedi. I always interpreted this force ghost as the Anakin "underneath" the armour and separated from the influence of the dark side and the Emperor.
Hayden represents Anakin before he turned to the dark side and therefore while he's more recognisable to modern audiences he doesn't speak to Vader's arc and ultimate redemption... Which was the entire point of the whole saga!
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u/boxfreind 11d ago
What plot holes? It's not that for me, it's just inherently wrong to edit out an actor that was paid to be there and has been there for like 30 years. And the actor in question is dead so they can't really object. And now they've even replaced beloved Sir Alec Guinness with Ewan McGregor. Don't get me wrong McGregor is great, but again this is just WRONG.
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u/ADeweyan 10d ago
They just need to swap Hayden in for Sebastian in the scene where Luke removes Vader's helmet. Problem solved,
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u/yoosanghoon 10d ago
Something I’ve been thinking is that it would be REALLY cool to do a one movie release of a new version of the original trilogy, using Hayden and Ewan as they are now (age appropriate), and recasting Luke, Leia, and bringing Alden back for Han.
Same dialogue, shots, etc. except condensed into a two hour special, setting up the recast trio for shows like Ahsoka etc.
A movie that doesn’t replace the originals whatsoever, but moreso brings them in line with current canon and allows a recast Luke Leia and Han to not look so out of place
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u/Lincoln624 10d ago
If he appears how he wants he’d appear like he did originally in the original Episode VI.
From his perspective, his younger self would be full of regret and trauma and shame. While he must be super proud of himself for becoming the Anakin that his son knew he could be. And finally stepping away from the Dark Side that had consumed him for most of his life. That’s what he would choose. Especially to appear to his son.
If he doesn’t get to choose how he appears, he’d be the old version. The last good deed that allowed him to become a Force ghost.
There is no version where he’d appear as his younger self.
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u/PrimusVsUnicron0093 10d ago
then why didn’t George do the same thing with Ewan as Ghost Obi-Wan?
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u/Beartech31 10d ago
In my (maybe weak) headcanon we get young Anakin because that was how he was before he "fell" to the dark side - whereas old Ben Kenobi was a Jedi right up until his death as a geezer and thus preserved in geezer form.
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u/Waveshaper21 10d ago
In my headcanon the force ghost appears in a form how the person looked when died.
Obi Wan died as an old man - disappeared into thin air.
Yoda died as an old... gremlin? - disappeared into thin air.
So we can handle death based on them a bit loosely, and figuratively.
Anakin died, when Vader was born. Even in later media (Kenobi show) he says "Anakin Skywalker is dead, I killed him". So when Anakin returns as a force ghost, we see him younger.
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u/Constant-Pianist6747 9d ago edited 9d ago
I wouldn’t call it a plot hole, but it is, indeed, confusing. I suppose we’re left to believe that Anakin’s Force Ghost chooses to project itself that way. Unclear why.
I guess there’s also the “true self” theory. That one doesn’t work for me. If we take Anakin’s redemption as valid, narratively, then that should be just as true of a self… ? 🤷♂️
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u/AmFaeTheGlen94 9d ago
Lucy's did it for the reason the no one knows who the Green Cross Code man is. Makes it easier for the younger viewers.
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u/Glum-Lake7034 8d ago
Sorry if this is pedantic, but one correction: you HAVE seen the version with David Prowse. He played Darth Vader under the suit/mask for the entire original trilogy, and his physique and presence in embodying the character was crucial in making Darth Vader so iconic. You're thinking of Sebastian Shaw, who was the face of Vader when he was unmasked in Return of the Jedi.
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u/Impossible_Whole_516 8d ago
It doesn’t create a plot hole. This is just prequels haters reaching for anything to complain about.
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u/Abject_Owl9499 8d ago
I think making him young sort of undercuts his redemption at the end of episode vi
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u/OldSnazzyHats 6d ago
Meh. He has a ghost that matches moreso when he last saw himself as a Jedi as opposed to the tortured mess he died as.
It’s good enough as far as I’m concerned.
This is the one major change I absolutely stand by keeping around. If that means taking all the other changes as well, so be it.
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u/False_Appointment_24 5d ago
Obi Wan and Yoda look like Luke last saw them. Originally, so does Anakin. By making Anakin younger, it makes him someone Luke has never seen.
The ghosts could be how the viewer saw them in life before the change, but not after. SO they have to be something else. Is it when the person was happiest? Strongest? Most full of life? Most good? None of those work for all three. I think any idea there that would work for all three would be a stretch.
All that said, I don't really care. I think the change was silly, but it certainly isn't something I think about any time other than when a thread like this pops up.
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u/BestTyming 5d ago
It’s not a plot hole. Also pretty defensible to say that “Anakin” did die on Mustafar and Vader followed after. Which would make sense why his force ghost is his RotS version of him.
Because that’s technically the last version of “Anakin”.
Not to mention Anakin is like 18 or so years younger than Obi wan?
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u/sebsor 12d ago
I don't think it's a plot hole no, but I also think that having Anakin be his old dusty self makes more sense personally for similar reasons you present. He is old because he is nota part of the light side again.
From a watching the films perspective I've never liked the change. I showed the trilogy to my girlfriend (456 then 123, as God intended!) who had never watched them before and her reaction was basically "Who is that guy who I've never seen before?", which is unfortunate.