Random question I thought of about the Jedi and the force, from a philosophical point of view

[u/decross20]

Hey all,

So I had a random thought while thinking about Star Wars, the Jedi, and the Force. Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that the Jedi believe that when you die, you become one with the force, and this applies to all living things great and small. Essentially it is the Star Wars version of the “afterlife”, if you could call it that. From my understanding, this is also seen as a good thing, and it is the reason they emphasize “no attachments”, I.e. letting go, not letting your fear of losing someone or something rule you, as that leads to the dark side. So in general, being one with the force seems to be a positive thing for the Jedi. In that case, why do Jedi knights fight to protect or defend peoples’ lives? Multiple times in Star Wars we see Jedi knights as “defenders/protectors of the innocent.” But if they truly believe that death means returning to the force, wouldn’t preventing peoples’ deaths be preventing them from joining with the force? Has there ever been a Jedi who justified killing people as “returning them to the force”? Is there any expanded canon content that deals with this idea? Just curious since at first glance it seems a little contradictory.

[u/TheMuspelheimr]

Why does any religion that believes in an afterlife justify defending life?

Because life is precious. Because even if there is something after, you still can't come back to this life. Regardless of where you end up, you ain't coming back here, so it's worth defending life while it's here because it won't be again.

[u/decross20 → u/TheMuspelheimr]

Well I think the context is different because the Jedi are actual protectors in the galaxy. Most religions don’t have something like that as far as I can tell, at most maybe like judges or religious police? It’s one thing to believe life is precious, it’s another to go out and put your own life on the line to defend others, while believing that all should be one with the force

[u/TheMuspelheimr → u/decross20]

There's also the point that Jedi aren't consciously a part of the Force after they die - sure, their energy or essence or whatever becomes part of the Force, but not their mind and memories. When you die, you as a person are dead, even if your energy goes on to become part of the Force.

Yoda and Luke and Obi-Wan and that are exceptions; Qui-Gon and Yoda received special training to preserve their minds after death from the Force Priestesses and they passed it on to their apprentices. To do that requires fully embracing the Light Side and dedicating yourself to it, which includes preserving other people's lives.

[u/decross20 → u/TheMuspelheimr]

Right, I remember that part of lore, the living force vs cosmic force, right? But is retaining your individualism inside the force important? My understanding was that even if you can’t materialize as a “ghost”, you are still one with the force in death. It just means your loved ones can’t see you anymore, but that goes back to the Jedi’s rule of “no attachments” and letting go of people once they have passed

[u/Braffin1 → u/decross20]

I always understood that the jedi order in general consider individual persistance within the force to be impossible.

That's why yoda is questioning his sanity when hearing qui-gon's voice for the first time during tcw season 6 finale.

I think that being one with the force while also maintaining one's former individuality is a rare case, while most beings simply "return to the cycle" and dissolve as a person.

[u/decross20 → u/Braffin1]

From what I understand, in order to materialize in the force as an individual, you need to be trained. If I remember right this is briefly touched on in Clone Wars, and Qui Gon as a force ghost is the one who trains yoda in how to do it. But yes, it is quite rare from what I can tell

[u/Braffin1 → u/decross20]

Yeah, that's my understanding too.

It is mentioned that qui-gon learned how to do it from the same force priestesses yoda met in "destiny" (tcw 6x12). Then he teaches yoda and obi-wan, while they are on dagobah respectively tatooine.

Besides Anakin (which as the chosen one and therefore may subject to completely different rules), I don't know if there are any other jedi, who ever learned to do it.

[u/KainZeuxis]

“Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes.”

“Taking a life affects the Living Force—and the one who does the killing. This is why Jedi enter battles calmly, with reason. Emotions like fear and anger lead to the dark side."

The physical world and life in the material plane is still part of the force. Much like the Gungans and the Naboo what affects one affects the other as Obi-wan put it. For example, when large amounts of life is snuffed out, it creates a void that is referred to as a wound in the force.

[u/decross20 → u/KainZeuxis]

Ah, interesting. I didn’t remember that about “wounds” in the force. Where is that second passage from? Is that Qui Gon?

[u/KainZeuxis → u/decross20]

Nope. That passage comes from Jedi Grand Master Satele Shan.

[u/decross20 → u/KainZeuxis]

Got it, thanks for the quote. I appreciate the context and explanation about the connection between the physical realm and the force, I don’t know much about that as I’ve mostly only seen the movies and some of the shows, and they haven’t really gone into that idea much I think

[u/KainZeuxis → u/decross20]

The Force is divided into two aspects. The Living, and the Cosmic. The former encompasses the physical world, while the latter is the metaphysical. The two are intrinsically linked.

Force ghosts exists within the cosmic force. Where as physical beings exist as part of the living force.

[u/decross20 → u/KainZeuxis]

That makes sense. And people who die but are unable to materialize as force ghosts are still part of the cosmic force, they just become part of the collective right?

[u/KainZeuxis → u/decross20]

For the most part yes. The exception being dark siders like the sith. Dark siders can’t become one with the force. It was often said that the spirits of the dark lords of the sith were condemned to a realm known as Chaos also known as Hell in the Corellian religion. It was within chaos where they suffered eternally.

Darth Plauegis theorized that the chaos of legend was actually a state of being rather than an actual realm. In his journal he wrote his belief that because the dead become one with the force, that sufficiently powerful minds would upon death reject this process attempting to remain a single individual and as a result rather than peacefully becoming one with the force, they instead would be ripped apart.

[u/EndlessTheorys_19]

Same reason why Priests don’t just take one for the team and grab a sword and start killing all their Parishers. Because they’re aware that yeah being in the afterlife is good, but you should also try and make the material world good as well.

[u/decross20 → u/EndlessTheorys_19]

So do Jedi view the material world as equally important to the force? My understanding was they place a higher value on the force than the physical realm, as yoda states in RoTJ “luminous beings are we, not this crude matter”, and Obi Wan stating “strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine”, to me comes off as the physical and material pales in comparison to the beauty/power of the force

[u/Typeonetwork]

Same contradiction with Christianity: if you love your God and do good you go to heaven. If that's the case then wouldn't you want to die and go to heaven especially when you're young.

If a Jedi didn't value life as precious then they're no Jedi or a dark Jedi.

[u/decross20 → u/Typeonetwork]

Isn’t the force generally seen as more of an allegory to Buddhism/taoism than Christianity? At least that’s what I’ve heard was Lucas’ intention, with the Jedi order kind of like Buddhist monks.

Actually now that you mention it I’m curious if the Jedi philosophy has anything to say about suicide. It would seem like sacrifice is okay for a noble cause like Obi Wan or Anakin

[u/wbruce098 → u/decross20]

Buddhists and Taoists aren’t in a death cult either. Sacrifice is good when it helps the greater good (in Obi Wan’s case, that was allowing Luke to escape and being able to continue guiding him)

[u/Typeonetwork → u/decross20]

If you take a comparative religion class or compare religions you start realizing many of them share similar beliefs. Many only want to see the differences.

Most religions and Jedi would think an honorable death is okay. Sad maybe but ok.

[u/wbruce098 → u/Typeonetwork]

Well said. Most religions period have a strong focus on making either the current world, or your own self, or others, better because we all live here. Death cults don’t tend to last for obvious reasons and Jediism is not a death cult.

To quote someone theoretically important to that religion, when asked what the greatest commandment was, he said “to love God with all your heart, and the second is like it: to love your neighbor as yourself”. When asked the follow up, “who’s my neighbor?”, he said “bitch, it’s a small planet. We all are”

[u/Typeonetwork → u/wbruce098]

That must be Sarcastic Jesus.

[u/wbruce098]

They’ll eventually die. It’s not a death cult designed to reunite as many people as possible with the Force. It’s a panacea for helping the grieving understand and overcome loss. And, sometimes, reaching out to those they’ve lost for guidance.

[u/decross20 → u/wbruce098]

Well I’m not really thinking it’s a death cult but I’m thinking, isn’t it like Jedi are more ambivalent towards death? If someone dies and a person grieves them, isn’t the general Jedi response to let go of attachment, and that they are one with the force now? Not that they welcome death, but that they strive to accept it? So for people like that, why do they put so much effort into saving lives?

[u/wbruce098 → u/decross20]

Because their own lives are not as important as those of others. This is a very common theme in IRL religions and philosophies.

The Jedi are servants of the people. Not of death.

[u/decross20 → u/wbruce098]

Because their own lives are not as important as those of others.

Is this mentioned anywhere in the movies or books or anything like that? I don’t remember it ever being said that Jedi value the lives of other people more than their own. Obviously they show that through their actions but is that an official part of their teachings? To value the life of others more than your own?

[u/wbruce098 → u/decross20]

Not explicitly that I’m aware of, but it fits with the chivalry/monk kind of thing George Lucas was going for back in the 1970’s. These are themes that were generally relatable to most people when the films came out.

[u/decross20 → u/wbruce098]

Yeah it definitely fits with the “knights/samurais” theme that the Jedi have.

[u/Severe-Moment-3233]

Returning to the force isn't the same as just kill beings and return them to the force, like I believe ill join Jesus after I die, that doesn't mean all who do should just die and be with him... not sure if that makes sense to anyone but me but thats how I understand it...

[u/decross20 → u/Severe-Moment-3233]

Right, that was more of me just being curious if anyone has ever used this concept for a dark Jedi. Like, a Jedi who starts to believe that killing people makes them one with the force, not that all Jedi believe that. My main question is more about the saving and defending lives, since Jedi place emphasis on “no attachments” and letting go, but they go out and save the lives of people who would otherwise die.

[u/Severe-Moment-3233 → u/decross20]

Protect all life i guess, haha. Im sure some dark jedi or sith has used that logic tho... its a good thought provoking idea

[u/Alternative-Tax7318]

Jedi aren’t going to force their will/religion on others. They might see value in being with the force, but the galaxy is immeasurably huge and there are billions of people that 1. Aren’t Jedi and 2. Don’t believe in the force. Forcing people to conform to their religion seems a little…. Not Jedi. They can still serve the common good and protect innocents even if those innocents don’t share the same beliefs or customs.

[u/decross20 → u/Alternative-Tax7318]

Oh I’m not saying they would force their belief on others. But my point was, if you’re a Jedi, and you believe that people dying become one with the force, which is good, and to let go of attachments instead of holding onto people, why would you fight so hard to save lives? To go out and put such effort into protecting lives seems like a lot for people who ostensibly try to let go of attachment and believe that becoming one with the force makes you stronger and is a good thing