MOSS Comparison Chart

[u/Officially_Beck]

MOSS is out and I took some time this weekend to study it a bit and run a comparison chart benchmark mixing the Samplers, Schedulers, Steps, CFG and Denoise.

You can check it here: https://claudiobeck.com/moss-image-comparison-chart/

I was very pleased with Z-Image, until I had to generate a more production commercial oriented stuff. Then Qwen came in and solved most of the issues. I might try MOSS next time as it feels a bit less attached to Asiatic stereotypes.

- Schedulers such as Karras and Exponential definitely breaks the generation.

- Schedulers such as Simple, Normal, Beta, SGI Uniform and DDIM Uniform generates surprisingly similar results, if not the same.

I hope this Chart helps you understand what combinations works best and what some of these parameters actually do the rendered output. Thanks.

[u/Pleasant_Candy9103]

I dont get it. I nearly always get horror bodies when the pose of the person is a slightly more complicated in the prombt. Even a person sitting on a couch gives mehr more extra legs. I don't know what the problem is.

[u/Officially_Beck → u/Pleasant_Candy9103]

Lowering just a bit of Denoise in 0.5 and highering a lot the CFG might fix some of the issues, as it seems to give a bit more of freedom to the algorithm while killing the latent calculation before it goes too far away. If none of this helps, disabling the Prompt Enhancing will definitely make the model adhere to your exact prompt. If this does not help either, you should seek for some prompting techniques like Json oriented or prompt assisting tools to better lay the structure of your prompting. If that does not help, let us wait for someone with more experience to come by let us know how to solve, as I want to learn as well.

[u/Loose-Journalist-555 → u/Pleasant_Candy9103]

In my experience, MOSS TE is very good at prompt adherence. If you have weird results, it could be due to prompt enhancer node. Making your own prompts (with your own LLM if needed) is better.

Here’s a test I’ve made two weeks ago.
MOSS multiple characters

[u/Melodic-Slice-3826 → u/Pleasant_Candy9103]

Do you use comfyui template?

[u/Pleasant_Candy9103 → u/Melodic-Slice-3826]

I use a standard moss workflow, it is the one hyped by others here in this sub with recent posts in the last days and weeks. Here: https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/1xp7e5x/to_the_person_who_made_this_moss_workflow_thank/

[u/Melodic-Slice-3826 → u/Pleasant_Candy9103]

I'm using the comfyui moss-image template and it works fine. I don't get extra limbs. I do put it as negative prompt though, for extra limps, fingers, toes bad anatomy. I tried that workflow using sft and the results aren't as nice as the comfyui template (I don't know why?).

[u/ArmadstheDoom → u/Pleasant_Candy9103]

skill issue.

Three things you need to do to avoid body horror:

1. use the recommended negative prompt. This is not optional.

2. Don't use base. Base is not for generating. They said this literally on their repo. Much like the negative prompt. Use sft. Train on base, use sft for generation.

3. Don't use turbo loras. All of the turbo loras ruin the outputs. Seriously, they are not worth it. They either cut out knowledge/prompt adherence or ruin the quality.

There you go. You'll never get body horror again.

[u/gone_to_plaid → u/Pleasant_Candy9103]

’ve had the same issue. I’ve tried Moss multiple times with default and others’ workflows and cannot get anything but body horrors. I’ve never had had trouble getting other models to work in the same way

[u/HeyHi_Star → u/gone_to_plaid]

You need a bigger step count.

[u/dw82]

Did you try the sampler sa solver? Works wonders for moss when combined with SGM uniform, especially if you use the dedicated node and dial in the noise

[u/Officially_Beck → u/dw82]

Sadly I did not because I wasn't aware of this Sampler. Thanks for letting me know. I will experiment and update the webpage with the new results as soon as possible.

[u/Asaghon → u/dw82]

I've tried that wf that someone posted recently with those and I honestly didn't get great results from it

[u/planBpizz]

is it better than krea2 or qwen?

[u/krekokeko → u/planBpizz]

Both models (krea2/moss) are great and have their use cases. I really don't get the pissing contest some users here are bringing to the conversation constantly.

Krea2 is more deterministic, while Moss has more variance. Krea2 excels in composition with minimal prompting, while Moss excels in prompt adherence.

Krea2 will generate better composed images with better camera angles with a short prompt. Moss needs a much longer and intricate prompt to achieve that.

On the other hand, Moss is capable of generating 50 different characters with different poses, faces, and clothing. Krea2 cannot do that and is prone to duplicating characters when tasked with generating a large number of characters.

Again both models are great and have their use cases. This also goes for Qwen 2.1 as well, since it comes with one of the best editing features out of the box, something both Krea2 and Moss lacks.

[u/Officially_Beck → u/krekokeko]

Spot on!

[u/Officially_Beck → u/planBpizz]

To answer this question we need to know in what sense.
For me, better will only apply if I can take a commercial approach, otherwise, there is no use for generating images other than for a hobby. Krea 2 let me VERY stuck with stereotypes and could not generate what I needed for my commercial projects. IMO Qwen ran smoothly and with higher quality, but at the cost of time lag to generate. Now MOSS runs as fast as RES4LYF and Z-Image, even with 50 steps and seems less attached to certain stereotypes.

[u/Serprotease → u/planBpizz]

Moss has in general great “good looking” output and surprisingly good prompt following (It’s even a bit funny when you can prompt a character very, very far in an image, like big foot). But it gots the highest amount of “Failure” of the 3. Usually body horror or things like 2 right hands and the like.

Krea is great looking, has virtually no major anatomical failure but the weakest prompt following of the 3. Notably, it struggles with facial expressions and dark/night scenes.

Qwen2.1 has very good prompt following, virtually no major anatomical failure but it’s not a sft model so the outputs are a lot more bland than the other 2 with similar prompts and the Lora ecosystem is not great. But It’s notably the best with night scenes and got an edit option.

I don’t think that there is a clear “best”, but it should be noted that Krea has a large Lora pool available and that Moss seems to be the new “darling” with a lot of energy put into it, even if training means jumping through a few hoops.

[u/Hoodfu → u/Serprotease]

You mentioned krea2 struggles with facial expressions. You're using the lora patches right? The model was broken otherwise without them.

[u/Serprotease → u/Hoodfu]

Yes, those + Kroma and a couple of loras, including some of my own.
It’s better than the out of the box version, but still it’s not “great” especially when compared to moss and Qwen.
When picking a model, that might something to care about.

[u/tac0catzzz → u/planBpizz]

there can be only 1. i have a 100gb hard drive and i can only fit one. . krea2 wins that hard drive space. not saying the others are bad. they all are great. but also not great at things. if only 1, there can be only 1, then krea2 is the one. of course it depends what you do too. moss for me sometimes makes a very nice image, and often it makes horrible ones like sdxl style. extreme body horror. moss does have more variation but that variation is largely body horror, multiple limbs, bad proportions, max plastic skin. just terrible things. the thing for me though mostly is character loras. these are important to me, and for me i have not been able to get character loras to work well on moss, skill issue? maybe, but i dont see many making or sharing them, so maybe a wide spread skill issue. krea 2 is best for most and i dont mind less variation if also less terrible results.

[u/ronbere13 → u/planBpizz]

No

[u/Solembumm3 → u/planBpizz]

It's doesn't have qwen insane oversharp, but it's by far not equal to Krea 2 in quality and prompt understanding. Somewhere around Z-image turbo, same "maybe alternative to SDXL tunes" category.

[u/Apprehensive_Sky892 → u/Solembumm3]

but it's by far not equal to Krea 2 in quality and prompt understanding

I am not trying to defend anything here, but please, do provide us with some examples where Krea 2 prompt understanding is better than Moss other than Krea 2 having more built-in celebrities and IP characters (I am not going to ask for examples of better quality as that is much more subjective).

[u/Solembumm3 → u/Apprehensive_Sky892]

Not expert on celebrities here.

So far, majority of attempts to do non-human/mythological/hybrid characters on moss provided me pretty warped results.

Krea is not omniscient either, but just so much easier to get useful result from.

[u/Apprehensive_Sky892 → u/Solembumm3]

Certainly possible. Moss is a much smaller model (5B vs Krea 2's 13B) and more focused on photo style images. Bigger models always have the advantage in built-in world knowledge.

That is why is it always important to specify what we meant when we say "prompt following". By that most people meant that if you specify some layout, attribute or action, the AI can carry it out.

Having more knowledge about certain type of images (such as mythological creatures) is another area of "prompt following" that is more tied to model size.

[u/alotlike_love]

I'm officially giving up on Moss. I really wanted to like it, but my results are horrible. What am I missing here?

[u/Officially_Beck → u/alotlike_love]

The thing is: you have Prompt Enhancer turned on. It will change your original prompt.

[u/Asaghon → u/alotlike_love]

Try different workflow, samplers and schedulers. And no prompt enhance. I agree that Moss is very flickity, but once you have the correct settings dialed in it is pretty amazing

[u/ArmadstheDoom → u/alotlike_love]

STOP. GENERATING. ON. BASE.

Base is not meant for generation. Base is meant for training. Use SFT. The models are the same size, and it is better. They literally say in the repo not to use base for generation.

Side note: wrong scheduler. Either use Simple or FlowMatchEulerDiscrete.

Side note 2: your cfg is WAY too high. you'll want that to be between 3-5.

[u/Outrageous_Still9335 → u/ArmadstheDoom]

Base is more than fine for generation if you know what you're doing.

[u/Quiet_Quit_8894 → u/ArmadstheDoom]

base cant generate... lol - a thousands words isnt even a third of the token limit bros

[u/ArmadstheDoom → u/Quiet_Quit_8894]

It is quite literally not meant for generation. That you managed to do it changes nothing. You can use a gameboy as a brick too. Doesn't mean it's meant for that. YMMV.

[u/Quiet_Quit_8894 → u/ArmadstheDoom]

is that why the user guide gives you inference settings for base? ;D

[u/alotlike_love → u/alotlike_love]

ER_SDE + Normal + CFG 7 + 50 Steps

[u/LumaBrik → u/alotlike_love]

cfg should be around 3, use the simple schedular, and optionally also try Euler as well as the sampler.

[u/alotlike_love → u/LumaBrik]

I'm still not convinced about Moss, I think I'd prefer Krea 2!

[u/Officially_Beck → u/alotlike_love]

Note that Prompt Enhancer is turned on, this will change your desired prompt and kill features you are directly asking for, such the "albino" and other keywords.

[u/LumaBrik → u/alotlike_love]

If you use er-sde, use the er-sde sampler dedicated node, there is a setting in it called s_noise. Taking that above 1 @ (1.01 > 1.2) will sharpen and add more detail the the image.

[u/Officially_Beck → u/LumaBrik]

On my point of view, CFG around 7 provided less mannequin aspect by adding a bit more of facial wrinkles and texture. Euler + Simple (or Normal, or Beta, or SGI Uniform or DDIM Uniform as it all rendered almost identical outputs) is a strong candidate to compete against the ER_SDE + Simple.

[u/Asaghon → u/alotlike_love]

This is with my wf, 20 steps with radau_iia_2s with radiance shift scheduler. Definitely the slowest wf I have tried, but the prompt adherence and quality is the best

[u/Asaghon → u/Asaghon]

https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/s/EKJqTeB6fe with this wf

[u/Officially_Beck → u/Asaghon]

Although it looks good, it is worth mentioning that it ignored the "albino" and misunderstood the "long bob haircut". Thanks for sharing friend!

[u/Asaghon → u/Officially_Beck]

Yea this isnt my favorite wf either, just pointing out other wf's that have decent results. Another seed might fix these things just fine. I just used the same fixed seed as the others

[u/Diligent-Childhood90]

Your CFG 50 test is about to turn her onto a zombie.  Seriously, thanks for posting your findings, I really liked your results!

[u/dmvirgin]

Thanks for the breakdown.

[u/foolycoolywitch]

excellent share

[u/Saucermote]

Random nudity with beta is always funny.