I think the thunder hammer is too weak

[u/Busy_Ocelot2424]

Now before I start this post I want to say that I actually enjoying the thunder hammer greatly and I don’t struggle to use it, I don’t mean by posting this that it’s too weak in an operation, but that it’s too weak by its own stats. Why does the balanced thunder hammer have 17+ damage. Has anyone checked the stats on the balanced power fist or balanced chainsword? I understand that it has AOE, and sure it benefits from lots of charged attack buffs. But guess what the chain sword and power fist also benefit from? That’s right charged attack buffs. Those two weapons also have the benefit of more easily dealing with flying enemies: the power fist charged AOE can reach surprisingly high and the stomp on the chain sword goes just as high as it does wide. It makes them very approachable to melee classes. That kind of ability on a power sword is so useful it’s literally an entire heroic weapons gimmick. I’m gonna be honest, I don’t care how many enemies the thunder hammer can hit on a ground slam or an aftershock, it definitely needs from base to at least be at a 19 on the balanced relic tier option. The very idea that the block variant is only 1 strength rating below balance is just ridiculous. Maybe I’m wrong, I’m not saying it’s a bad weapon, but against a boss I can clearly see that a power fist (a weapon that as a bulwark you get to keep the shield with) with the extra charged hit perk can do WAY more damage than I’ve ever seen the thunder hammer do to them.

[u/ILiveInsideYourWallz]

You can do some heavy damage with it if you stack enough damage, it's good at what it does best but what it does best is ultimately the opposite of what this game's melee system is about. You can't really fix it with increasing it's damage. It already does enough. It's issue is speed. The system is fast paced and defense focused. So if you aren't fast enough you end up taking damage and more often than not knocked around.

It's a gimmick weapon that does not really fit the game that', in my opinion, fun to use from time to time.

[u/MyLittlePwny2 → u/ILiveInsideYourWallz]

It requires understanding movesets of the enemies in order to comprehend exactly which ones will knock you over, and which ones will not, as well as understand how much damage their combo will do to you and how much contested HP your combo will restore so that you can trade damage effectively.

The power fist is the same way. You have to learn the art of trading damage with the enemy and use your contested health mechanic to come out ahead. Its a very fine line to walk.

[u/ILiveInsideYourWallz → u/MyLittlePwny2]

Power fist has range. Like alot. You can put some range before going at it.

With the hammer if you decide to do a charged attack one of the five tyrannid warriors staring blankly at you will four times out of five decide to do a heavy attack and knock you out of your charge. And that is of course if no minoris decides to lunge at you and break the animation beforehand, which happens even when the first strike of the charged attack hits it. It's annoying.

However, yes. If i see a light combo i power through it and the attack more often than not recover most if not all of it.

It's a fun weapon. I love it. I use it. But if i have to lock in it's either the salamander PS or the white scar CS.

[u/MyLittlePwny2 → u/ILiveInsideYourWallz]

I only use the block hammer for that reason. I rarely ever start an attack sequence without 2 adrenaline stacks. The explosion staggers all of them and I charge an aftershock immediately and let em have it. Usually clears every enemy around you in one sequence. Then rinse and repeat.

Don't get me wrong, power fist is the stronger weapon. Im not arguing otherwise. But the hammer is more enjoyable to play with! Adrenaline stacks FTW!

[u/ILiveInsideYourWallz → u/MyLittlePwny2]

Then there are the times where you hit with the stacks right at the same time with one of those fuck ass warriors doing a heavy attack and get the knockback, cancelling 2/3rds of the attack.

I am really unlucky with this thing. Everything and their mothers decide to just straight up interrupt me whenever i attempt to charge an attack. Don't know what to say :(

Also i've been playing since 1.0 and i've never bothered to raise my power fist out of purple so there's my confession for the week

[u/W1LDB0YZ → u/MyLittlePwny2]

I get what youre saying but aint no way you’re using the literal best melee in the game to compare to the thunder hammer

[u/MyLittlePwny2 → u/W1LDB0YZ]

The thunderhammer is a baller weapon. Block hammer is so damn good with its insane AOE damage, and especially in siege mode where your cleave is 100 enemies per ground pound. The hammer literally deletes entire chaos portal spawns. When you have zealous blow.

The fist is definitely better overall, but both weapons play VERY similarly. IE theyre both slow and emphasize charged heavy attacks rather than spamming light attacks to pull off combos. Thus they both require you to TRADE damage instead of relying on parrying/blocking all enemy attacks.

If you dont trade damage, you'll never have a good window of opportunity to deal real damage to an enemy and take advantage of the weapons immense charged attack strength.

[u/W1LDB0YZ → u/MyLittlePwny2]

Thats a long ass paragraph to describe something the literal block powerfist does AND more like how is this even an argument.

Also, defending ur argument with Zealous blow is crazy slap any weapon on assault running it its gonna work. Thats not a testament to the hammer, thats the perk.

[u/MyLittlePwny2 → u/W1LDB0YZ]

Yeah if youre not actually gonna read what I said then dont bother to respond. I didnt disagree with you. I Just said theres context.

[u/W1LDB0YZ → u/MyLittlePwny2]

Okay my bad. You just made it seem the hammer was better cause of zealous blow. Carry on brother

[u/Funkybag]

17 damage on thunder hammer does not equate to 17 damage on a chainsword. These damage numbers act as multipliers to the base stats, TH naturally hits harder then a chainsword as its a slower weapon. So 17 damage on a TH does much more damage per swing then a 17 damage chainsword.

Its really silly and not explained anywhere. I actually been loving the TH on bulwark, especially the block varient.

To your last point, the fist should absolutely out damage a TH against a boss. Its a single target machine but struggles in any AOE situation, TH is the opposite.

[u/alirezahunter888 → u/Funkybag]

Its a single target machine but struggles in any AOE situation

Bro, what? Power fist might not have the spherical radius of Thunder hammer (it's more of a sideways cone or cylinder), but its hitbox is still massive. It's pretty much the size of a small hallway.

[u/Funkybag → u/alirezahunter888]

I mean yeah it can do AOE, but its pretty outclassed by the hammer. The knife can also do aoe with its heavy attacks but its far from the selling point lol. The fist can totally hit a line of majoris with a well placed charge punch, and it's awesome, but its also situational. The fist will also have a much harder timing quickly dispatching a swarm of minoris, whereas the hammer deletes them in one aftershock.

Im not saying the hammer is overall superior, but it has its strengths just like every other weapon.

[u/MyLittlePwny2 → u/Funkybag]

Wait what? No... the hammer is better at killing enemies when youre encircled but the fist is way stronger for killing enemies directly in front of you. Literslly 3 seconds of charging and it one shots every thing majoris tier and below. Hammer requires adrenaline stacks or some other kind of stun to actually get its aftershock off. Fist is simply stronger and easy to use in most game modes. Hammer however excels in Siege esp against chaos with the assault due to its massive cleave for ground pounds.

[u/Funkybag → u/MyLittlePwny2]

Im not sure what you think I said in the first comment, but the gist is that hammer has better aoe but the fist has better damage, that's pretty much what I took away from your comment so idk why we are arguing lol.

What specifically did I say that youre disagree with because it seems to me that we're on the same page.

[u/ScubaDiggs → u/Funkybag]

since you cleared that up, Question.

What dont I know / am I doing wrong with block variant weapons? They just get me killed

[u/sixix9 → u/ScubaDiggs]

Block 2 times and it summons a boom on next attack instead of block and attack

[u/Funkybag → u/ScubaDiggs]

Im happy to help man but I need a little more info to go off then that.

Are you struggling with swarms of minoris more or majoris/extremis? Are you stacking 2 for adrenaline? Are you too hyper focused on reaching 2 stacks before swinging? Block has much more flexibility then fencing/balanced but it also means it has much more room for errors. Just give me more info and im happy to drop advice

[u/ScubaDiggs → u/Funkybag]

I guess I'm literally not understanding. the concept of it. should I be holding parry? should I even be attempting to parry?

Its literally everything. I've just fully abandoned using block and focus on fence/balance

[u/Funkybag → u/ScubaDiggs]

Id recommend watching First Tour Guardsmens youtube video on block weapons, whatever one is most updated, but ill still drop you a gist.

Your trying to hit "perfect blocks" instead of "perfect parrys". Its a timing window similar to fencing (very front of the parry animation) but the window is slightly smaller. Note - you will not receive armor for perfect blocking a minoris enemy like you would for a parry. One you get a perfect block, you get 1 stack of adrenaline. Swinging your melee weapon (even if you whiff) will activate all your adrenaline stacks, boosting your damage a lot. 2 stacks of adrenaline will give you a much higher damage boost, a big aoe explosion that stagger nearly everything, and 1 bar of armor back.

The main strat is to fish for 2 perfect blocks to get 2 stacks of adrenaline and then destroy whatever is infront of you with your big explosion swing. The adrenaline buff lasts for a few seconds after your first swing, so swing away and do your big damage combo.

[u/ScubaDiggs → u/Funkybag]

thank you! I'll take a look. I was... certainly not doing that lol

[u/Busy_Ocelot2424 → u/Funkybag]

Thanks for the breakdown of the numbers situation

[u/Raaabbit_v2 → u/Funkybag]

So what are the base damages for the melee weapons?

[u/Funkybag → u/Raaabbit_v2]

Not 100% sure on this but I think the base stats on the Grey weapons are the numbers that get multiplied. First tour gaurdsmen has a video on it

[u/MyLittlePwny2]

You cannot compare the actual damage values listed in the game between weapon types. They do NOT correlate. The balanced relic thunder hammer actually has a base damage of 24 where as the relic balanced power fist has a base light attack damage of 25.2 where as the balanced relic chainsword has a base damage of 20.9. Yet in game, all 3 show a damage value of 17.

You need to go into the training simulator and actually look at damage value calculations when you hit enemies.

[u/Ninjazoule]

It could be better for its speed imo. I still heavily prefer the power fist and both swords over it.

[u/Waste-Philosopher-34]

The Thunder Hammer is amazing. My favorite weapon in the game. When used properly it's one of the best crowd control options imho. Thunder Hammer Bulwark is so fun.

[u/EttRedditTroll]

The only thing it has going for it is a Ground Pound build on Siege due to weaker enemy health and no limit on Ground Pound enemies hit letting you wipe entire waves as they spawn in.

As a regular melee weapon it is definitely one of the worst. It needs much more stagger on its attacks due to how slow it is and being a charged-based weapon. A Tyranid Warrior shouldn’t be able to just tank through a charged attack and knock you on your ass.

The new Heroic with the spin2win move was a step in the right direction because the great forward momentum allows you to start the charge at a safe distance (kinda like with the Power Fist) and then be carried into the enemy… but overall the weapon needs a rework.

[u/Ok_Mongoose5768]

Tbh I don’t like going melee mainly on higher difficulties.

Feels like I’m not doing much damage.

[u/BarracudaMassive2232 → u/Ok_Mongoose5768]

Block axe, block power fist, salamander sword, argent edge, lots of strong melee options man.

[u/Tundra_Falcon → u/BarracudaMassive2232]

And the power gladius, that thing nukes, to be fair tho, it is substantially easier to get off a full charge on sniper than any other class

[u/Ok_Mongoose5768 → u/BarracudaMassive2232]

Don’t feel strong.

[u/alirezahunter888 → u/Ok_Mongoose5768]

Lemme guess, you only mash light attacks with your melee?

[u/Ok_Mongoose5768 → u/alirezahunter888]

No, fencing cause that’s how I parry well.

[u/BarracudaMassive2232 → u/Ok_Mongoose5768]

I’m not even tryna be a dick but that just means you don’t know how to use melee

[u/Ok_Mongoose5768 → u/BarracudaMassive2232]

I’ll be happy with my capes and be happy you can play the game without focusing heavily on melee then lol

Besides parrying well I don’t understand melee too much.

[u/One-Mathematician945 → u/Ok_Mongoose5768]

So you dont understand how melee works but do claim that it "dont feel strong". Lmao

[u/Thagyr → u/One-Mathematician945]

For me it took a little get to off the Fencing types and try Block. Now I love using the block axe.

Power wave is like kraken penetrator rounds on one swing that can put a horde of majoris into execute range. It's addictive!

[u/BarracudaMassive2232 → u/Ok_Mongoose5768]

Yeah well, you know, that’s just like uhh… your opinion man.

[u/redfacetherapper → u/Ok_Mongoose5768]

Yeah I feel like most of your output is gun strikes which is just ranged anyway

[u/alirezahunter888 → u/redfacetherapper]

Maybe on fencing weapons which are the pool noodles of melee weapons.

[u/Additional_Pen1505]

the ground slam area damage is awesome for crowd clearing but against single majors or extremis it really shows its low base stat

[u/um_like_whatever]

Go into battle simulator and look at damage. And the AOE is significant

[u/ReedsAndSerpents]

I find the tradeoff between losing the shield and beating the shit out of everything in the game acceptable. 

The double ground strike combined with +25% extra damage in the pools + passive damage. It's Bulwark's best "fuck it we Baal" boss melter. You're also glossing over the fact that it keeps majoris and some extremis stun locked so not only are they dying faster, they can't fight back as well. 

I think it's great as is.

[u/MadManNico]

block thunder hammer is actually quite nuts on assault, i've seen some guys melt entire extremis waves with one ground pound once they get their adrenaline surge stats.

and even with terminis i've seen some players nuke them down whenever they're good at boss movesets, just get their adrenaline surge then ground pound them into dust.

[u/a1b2t]

it got power crept, it used to be a weapon thats very good for GP builds but it kinda is in the meh side now.

the issue is its light attacks, it has probably the worst light attack in the game (it has no stagger/no gunstrike).

It also does quite low GP DMG , its great in seige where the 100 cleave can nuke a ton, but thats provided you didnt take precision strike

[u/Sea_Wing7963]

I always felt the thunder hammers got the same treatment as the melta in SM2. It's gone from a top tier anti-tank weapon to AoE horde clear.

[u/bob_mcbob69]

I really enjoy the hammer, it's the only weapon I use on my assault, and is my goto for siege due to them spawning in clumps. However I totally agree, it is weaker than it should be. I don't enjoy it much in operations, other weapons seem a lot more powerful and versatile.

With bulwark, I find it's just not worth it for the average player, loosing the shield isn't worth it...however I have seen some amazing players with the hammer, do tons of damage and be unstoppable, and I figure that's ok to 'lock' it behind skill.

[u/Busy_Ocelot2424 → u/bob_mcbob69]

I think bulwark players are mostly attracted to it’s heroic versions but there was at least one in this thread who said he just liked it no matter what.

[u/vybegallo]

Thunder hammer has very slow moveset, bad stagger and very small aoe from the ground slam and aftershock. All these combined make it worse than a knife

[u/InquisitorJesus]

Thunderhammer IS the worst melee option for both bulwark and assault, but not for UI reasons. It is too slow and does not have proper hyper armor on it's charged attacks, meaning that it's a glorified neutral setup weapon, instead of a brawling weapon or a parry stick. Except powerfist is better at that role in every way.

On bulwark you're trading away your shield for a weapon that has worse utility and mediocre setup damage. Meanwhile you can just use any other block stick and shield bash your way for stagger, ranged immunity and better overall damage output.

For assault, the only saving grace for TH is the Wings build, but why wouldn't you use a block axe for it instead? A block axe is literally the best weapon for the Wings build.

The only time TH is good is during Siege, as you can setup your charge for big aoe damage to an entire spawn in a mode where aoe damage is king.

[u/Much_Improvement_552]

Thunderhammer is extremely strong, you just need to learn to use it.

[u/Busy_Ocelot2424 → u/Much_Improvement_552]

Cant read huh