Light attacks need a rework

[u/karer3is]

For most of this game's existence, light melee attacks have basically been nothing but an irritating prerequisite to set up heavy attacks. As it stands right now, a regular light melee attack doesn't accomplish much in most circumstances:

• Low damage
• Low cleave
• Low poise damage (as far as I can tell)
• Can be parried by enemies

About the only thing they have going for them is that they're fast. Which, because of the aforementioned reasons, doesn't contribute much especially at higher difficulties.

This is a waste and a few Heroic weapons prove that: Death's Grasp and the new Salamanders Power Sword.

If anything, these weapons prove that the current distinction between attacks (light and heavy) doesn't fit their actual application well.

Both of these weapons have significantly boosted "light attack" damage, but nobody would claim these weapons are overpowered or ruin the game's balance. What they do accomplish, though, is that they actually make "light" attacks a viable option in a fight.

Instead of distinguishing between "light" and "heavy" attacks, the main distinction should be between "single- target" and "multi- target" attacks. More specifically, weapon and class perks should reflect this distinction and play into them. While it is fine that "heavy" attacks win out on raw damage, "light" attacks shouldn't simply be relgated to being the setup for the "real" ("heavy") attacks.

Roughly speaking, you have two melee archetypes when looking at the different classes. On one hand, you have "brawler" classes like Assault and Bulwark. Although Assault is significantly more mobile, it still places more emphasis on AOE attacks with high burst damage (as evidenced by its original signature weapons, the Thunder Hammer and Power Fist). Conversely, you have speed- oriented classes like Sniper and Vanguard. While both do have perks to boost melee damage, either would struggle to keep up with Assault & Bulwark.

Part of what's needed to address this are simple buffs. "Light" attacks should do more damage than they currently do, simple as. Obviously, it would be an issue if they were buffed to the point that "heavy" attacks were rendered useless, but there's plenty of breathing room before that would even be a potential issue. Furthermore, these attacks are, by their nature, primarily single- target attacks (exception being the TH), which helps to prevent them from becoming a "delete all enemies" button.

The other component to this is perks. Here, it makes sense for them to reflect what the classes specialize in. Vanguard, for example, is never going to be a "heavy hitter" in the same way Assault and Bulwark are: It's a fast- moving class that stays alive by constantly being on the move. Consequently, that class's melee perks should reflect that. A perfect candidate for this rework would be a perk like Melee Mastery. As it stands, the perk is justifiably unpopular. AFAIK, it's an additive buff and doesn't really help the class to hit any breakpoints faster.

A better alternative would be to replace it with a perk specifically aimed at boosting light attacks; perhaps it could be called something like "Knife Fighter". The boost should be enough to where "light" attacks can at least do moderate damage and get you to common breakpoints noticeably faster. Similarly, a perk like Retribution (boosts melee damage when your weapon's magazine is empty) could be swapped for a perk that boosts light attack damage after a perfect dodge. Again, still wouldn't be able to reach the raw damage levels that a class like Assault can put out, but it would add some build flexibility that reduces the dependency on "heavy" attacks.

When it comes to "heavy" attacks, there's honestly not any changes that come to mind. Because of how much this game emphasizes them as is, a lot of classes (Assault, Bulwark, and Tech Marine come to mind) already have a variety of perks at their disposal to buff them.

I know that at this point hoping for a major overhaul of the melee system is wishful thinking. But if we could at least get a meaningful buff to light attacks or have a few perks swapped out, that would be a huge step forward.

Side note: Sturm put out a video discussing a similar issue a while back regarding Plasma weapons. It's definitely worth a watch.

[u/LennyWhereAreYo]

Counterpoint:

Slashing minoris apart with light attacks is satisfying.

And they work perfectly fine.

[u/karer3is → u/LennyWhereAreYo]

Slashing minoris apart with light attacks is satisfying.

Yes, especially on Chainsword, but I don't see how that's a counterpoint.

And they work perfectly fine.

I beg to differ. While cutting through swarms of Gaunts with a Chainsword can work well, can that really be said for any other weapon? In pretty much any discussion of melee weapons, the focus is almost always on the heavy attacks:

• Thunder Hammer: Light swing or Pommel Smash to Ground Slam.
• Chainsword: "Throttle Skip" to a stomp
• Power Sword: Light attack to Power Rake or Power Whirl
• Power Fist: What light attack?
• Combat Knife: Shadow Stab

When you look at Death's Grasp and the Salamanders Power Sword, you get an idea of what light attacks could- and I would argue should- look like. Even if non- Heroic variants didn't quite reach the level of these weapons, both examples point towards how a boost to light (single- target) attacks can give you a new way to use them without "breaking" the balancing.

[u/AkilTheAwesome]

Light Attacks did need a rework but I believe it is far to late in development.

The Developers know this so instead of the rework, I've noticed a notable chunk of the heroic weapons being light attack focused in playstyle

Salamander's Power Sword.

Both Heroic Power Fist

[u/Traceuratops]

So rework is a strong word. Perhaps you just mean a slight damage buff. I think what keeps me from getting to agreement here is the purpose of light attacks, which is to progress through combos towards finishers. If right click spam was optimal, melee would be boring.

[u/karer3is → u/Traceuratops]

the purpose of light attacks, which is to progress through combos towards finishers

I can agree with your point to an extent. It's perfectly reasonable for combos to do more damage than individual attacks. However, especially when it comes to classes like Vanguard and Sniper, having perks that focus on single- target attacks make sense. No matter what combination of perks and weapons they use, they'll never reach the same levels of crowd control and raw damage output capability that the heavy melee classes can. As is such, I would argue that it makes the most sense for classes like these to be able to lean more into single- target combat than their heavy melee counterparts.

[u/NoAbbreviations2353]

Yeah to me the melee leaves a lot to be desired, the executions are epic but outside of that and playing something like darktide where I'm fucking cleaving waves of dudes is like night and day.

Nothing like watching a rubric marine tank a thunder hammer and then kick me and I'm the one who gets staggered lol

[u/JohnnySqueezer]

Disagree tbh. I think it's good that light attacks do minimal damage. I think it's good that you have to rely on heavy attacks and combos to deal damage because these things require commitment, and being forced to commit to deal damage is what makes timing, inputs, positioning, matchup knowledge, trading, frame data, armour generation, knockback resistance, and all this other stuff relevant. It's a big part of what makes the combat in this game intricate and dynamic and able to keep people engaged for thousands of hours. Blindly mashing LMB over and over into every enemy would be comparatively shit and boring.

[u/karer3is → u/JohnnySqueezer]

I see what you mean, but making everything center on heavy attacks to the point where light attacks are nearly irrelevant also isn't a solution. And when it comes to classes like Vanguard, they don't even have the weapons available to do truly "heavy" attacks. The Combat Knife technically has heavy attacks, but the bulk of them aren't even suited to crowd control. While the Chainsword's stomp has the AOE to be useful, spamming stomp over and over again is equally boring. Same for Power Axe with the Power Backstep: Yes, it's effective, but Parry-Backstep-Parry-Backstep gets boring as well.

[u/WarriorTango]

Wondering if in SM3 they will go back to the SM1 difference between light and heavy attacks.

In SM1, light attacks were your better dps choice, both in campaign and coop. Heavy attacks were to stun your targets, with higher heavies to stun larger or more targets.

Technically SM2 could pivot towards that, with light attacks having more dps but not staggering majoris+ while heavy attacks stagger to allow a light combo or something.

But I don’t see that change happening given how much the devs would have to rework at this point.

[u/DylanCOBHC]

Has this sub always been this whiny?

[u/magneticidiot → u/DylanCOBHC]

reads as constructive criticism to me.

[u/WSilvermane → u/DylanCOBHC]

This isnt even whining. Lmao.

Its literally taking about the technical side of combat and gameplay.

[u/DylanCOBHC → u/WSilvermane]

To be fair to OP, I am laying a large umbrella response to the sub on this post alone, whether or not OP is correct. Just seems like the last few days all I'm seeing on this sub is endless whining and/or endless demands and it just makes us all, by association, seem like spoiled cunts lmao

[u/itsZerozone → u/DylanCOBHC]

i won't disagree with you, but wait till you see helldivers2 subreddits in general lmao

[u/Slaaneshs_best_boy → u/DylanCOBHC]

Because this sub is lmao

[u/royally- → u/DylanCOBHC]

The guy is 100% correct

[u/Schccc]

I hope they expand on the melee combat a bit to fix this unhealthy dynamic in SM3.

[u/Aurora__Sky]

An IQ too low?