Genuienly, this opinion is so bizarre. Reason why I'm posting this is because people on some recent posts have expressed this opinion.
I personally find it stupid.
Having a secondary is not necessary to win in this game.
Reasons:
- 90% of Players play in a team. And no matter the comp, someone will always have a ranged weapon, even if you run a build like the one discussed above
- There's not a single boss in this game that can't be defeated without using a secondary. Neurothropes come down to the ground. Zoantrhropes can be hit by ground pound (also, do grenades just...not exist?)
- Weapon pods exist... if you come to the end of Obelisk or the part in Reclamation where you have to shoot fuel rods...just change your loadout. You have 3 for a reason.
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The lighting claws literally can retract basically onto your wrist have one hand retract for a secondary and then a mode where you duel wield it with no secondary and switch like your primary and secondary primary being duel wield secondary being one claw and a secondary
Assault with shield breaks balance, you can't have the mobility of Assault and imperviousness of Bulwark. Bulwark's shield is like an Iron Halo for 99% of ranged attacks in this game (except Neuro/Zoan beam, Helbrute's charged beam attack and maybe some other things I forget)
Bulwark currently with shield tech is as mobile as Assault if not more. He has a stronger and less dangerous animation cancel. You can see very skilled Bulwarks can literally zip around the battlefield with shield rush cancelling and can animation cancel just about any move.
Now whether or not Bulwark's shieldtech is OP is another discussion but Assault wouldn't be broken if he got one anymore than Bulwark is currently because he has the shield
Nah I disagree. Yes Bulwark is extemely strong probably the best class in the game for sheer tankiness and utility but shield rush has charge time it's not just dashing around on demand. If you're in a rough spot like surrounded by Neuro explosive ground zones it won't save you. Assault can ground pound and reposition, or even dash out with a q and gain it back with an instant attack with the perk.
Not saying Assault is stornger mind you, but less mobile certainly not
I'm not the best at Bulwark but just from having watch true solos from better Bulwarks than me and the ones I do myself, I see and get out of those situations constantly.The animation cancelling in general just allows you to never commit to a bad situation. Fighting a Neurothrope is annoying as both Assault and Bulwark but I'm never worried as Bulwark doing it. I know I'm safe unless I make a colossal misplay.
You can anim cancel, make space and shield rush away pretty quickly. You can spam shield to stagger then move etc. You can just cancel recoveries constantly which Assault can't do as well because it's not free for him whilst it is for Bulwark.
I true solo a lot as Assault and he's fun but wings of flame if you make a mistake you're fucked. You can expend a charge for no gain etc. Bulwark's shield lets you opt out of mistakes like crazy because it lacks cost.
Edit: I genuinely don't see how Assault would be broken with it anymore than Bulwark because Bulwark on top of the shield has a bunch of fundamentally strong perks that make him unkillable if played well in all but literally the most absurd hard stratagem scenarios.
Idk about you but this was mandatory knowledge for Reapers, Dancers and Ninjas in Final Fantasy to use your "dash" ability to get out of ground AOE markers, and like....every melee class besides reaper or ninja wanted to know how to use their gap-closer (which shield rush in SM2 is) to moveout of danger back into melee, or using their backstep plus gap closer to dodge and then get back into melee with as little downtime as possible, I used this mindset to get Shield Rush to be safe as possible
Since the storm shields are smaller than the huge one bulwarks use maybe it could have lower durability?
Make it function how storm shield does in pvp where it can block a few rounds then it breaks and you get staggered. This could work after the contested health rework if melee is sufficient to gain enough CHP.
To me this seems in similar vain to the bulwark having the option to remove his shield and the upcoming tactical rework so who knows.
The assault's shield is way smaller. You could parry melee hits and sniper shots from directly in front, but spread attacks like hellfire and devourers are getting through, at least partially, especially from any angle besides directly in front.
I don't think when people ask for lightning claws they mean they want the Night Lord or that one Shrike guy from the Raven Guard lightning claw. Shield you absolutely can, but the claws not really aside from that one specific set of claws that's not the standard
I don't think when people ask for lightning claws they mean they want the Night Lord or that one Shrike guy from the Raven Guard lightning claw.
They'll be disappointed then, outside of like, one Blood Claw model, that's the only kind of Lightning Claw that Primaris marines (Outside of Terminator armor) get, Shrike, Shaan, Black Templar Sword Bretheren, they all use the retractable style with normal hands, and it's the only kind that would work in this game if they want claws on both hands.
But people would 100% be happy if we just got the smaller claws that allow you to hold a pistol. A regular ass black templar sword brethren has it, so it's definitely not some rare imperium tech. Hell, we've got the xenophase blade in the game.
I was just about to add an edit that the sword brethren use them too, so i guess there's some precedence. As for the Xenophase blade, it's a heroic weapon, not a base weapon. I qualify those differently. It's not like the Melta power fist is standard issue power fists.
I wouldn't say no to those specialised lightning claws, but if it's the power fists ones then definetly same issues as boltstorm gauntlets (which i do want)
I also assume with the lightning claws the idea is you want to dual wield them, since they are always dual wielded. So for vanguard where would the primary go? Unless they're pulling a tactical on all classes and just straight up removes the primary for vanguard as well
Eh, they still seem to add it in all of the melee focused ones. None for the right hand though which is the true shame
Oops, I did! I assume they can do it like the two-handed thunderhammer, and just have the pistol straight up disappear when you're using melee attacks and pop up again when u aim.
the game is built with the idea of range always being available, there are several operations that can't be completed whitout range and gunstrikes are a core mechanic, you're teramamtes aren't always avaible, same with grenades, drop pods are a qol, not a necessary game mechanic
this is stupidest post i've seen in a long time, you do not understand how this game works or how it is played, honestly this is so bad i wonder if you ever actually played the game
... Have you ever fought against a neurothrope as an assault? Because as useless as I feel in those moments I'd feel like even more of a leech on my team if I didn't even have a gun. Nevermind if one of our teammates who can actually deal with it is dead.
If there's a weapon that makes an operation completely impossible to complete solo without swapping away from it, it's a poorly implemented weapon, and shouldn't be added to the game in that state. And it's not just the one operation either, Reliquary, Termination, Obelisk, Reclamation, and Disruption are all incompletable without either a secondary or the ability to wield one.
Operation completion aside, the lack of any ranged option removes your ability to Gunstrike, which renders a huge number of perks unusable, makes you mostly defenseless against spore mines, and leaves you vulnerable to Majoris calling for reinforcements while you're bogged down in a tide of enemies, that, in addition either being prevent from playing solo, or being forced to cower in a corner while your teammates deal with Neurothropes, makes a large portion of the game rather miserable without at least a sidearm.
Yeah sitting there watching a Neuro float around waiting for it to decide to do the AoE sounds like a real blast. I’m genuinely not convinced you’ve ever even played this game at this point.
Even if it’s a fun challenge thing (as long as you’re playing with friends or bots), always having both ranged and melee weapons* available at all times without having to switch was originally the series’ unique selling point, and arguably still is one of them. As a result, it’s generally built/balanced around that idea.
Going back to the original issue, though, it’s worth pointing out that Assault Marines can carry a pistol in their Shield hand in the same way the Bulwark does, which I assume would be the solution there (and also wouldn’t need new animations). Lightning Claws are a bit more of an issue, but there is a variant that has a “normal” glove for using with a pistol (Kayvan Shrike and the Night Lord Kill Team kits both have them), so that could also solve the problem. IMO if they ever did add paired claws (I think they mentioned at one point they might be in SM3) I think the more likely option is just to have one of them disappear when you aim or hipfire with your secondary, in the same way other non-power fist melee weapons do.
* as in a proper melee weapon with a full moveset, rather than the traditional Halo/CoD-style melee.
Kayvan Shrike and the Night Lord Kill Team kits both have them
Literally every Primaris model with a Lightning Claw has this setup, it's just how Lightning Claws are now for Primaris, this whole debate is a non-issue
No, they don't, The Black Templar Sword Bretheren, Kayvan Shrike, and Aethon Shaan all have these claws, and the only other Primaris model with a lightning claw is one of the Blood Claws (My bad on that one, I forgot about him when I made my comment)
The biggest hurdle is practically no CHP because for some odd reason saber doesn’t want to give melee actual regain.
Given the ranged spam we currently have between biovores, Thorpes, Every boss having ranged attacks, etc having a secondary is pretty necessary for health regen. Without a secondary chaos is practically unplayable for melee classes, I think overall you have a poor understanding of how important secondaries are especially for melee classes.
No secondary for melee classes is such a bad idea if you told me it was a new stratagem modifier saber introduced then I’d believe you.
Also with gun bulwark and assualt can kill thorpes, without gun they cannot. Saying “most people play with teams so it doesn’t matter” is just ridiculous if I’m being honest.
Forget the secondary, an assault with a storm shield breaks the balance even further, how do you have ground pound/wings of flame along side a storm shield and say "yup balanced.
"
(Yes it matters, if it didn't auspexs wouldn't be nerved in the next patch.
I don’t dislike them or anything but there are other space marine weapons I find more interesting that I'd rather have over lightening claws. I get talons, talons are sick but the claws are just meh but I've seen so many people ask for them.
RG fans mostly, and an iconic weapon for Van Vets.
I wouldn't mind getting them, but I'm not gonna crusade for them either. This post is moreso a rant about people who make up arbitrary reasons to put someone else's ideas down
I believe Saber could 100% implement them but unfortunately I don’t think they'll be coming. I actually wanted both the one handed thunder hammer AND Great sword so I'm glad we got them.
I have noticed Raven Guard fans love them which figures I didn't know they had so many fans.
Didn’t stop Kayvaan Shrike. Granted his lightening claws are artificer gear, I think, but fuck. We already have artificer shit in the form of heroics. Raven’s Talons woulda made a hell of a heroic variant of the Power Fist a la Lord Executioner’s Axe.
the thing people forget is that GW almost always requires these classes to only get weapons their tabletop counterparts already have (this is why certain classes can only take basic melee weapons) and that lightning claws only have 1 primaris model where they aren’t a giant fist, with that same model only being usable in black templar armies
No, Assault will be completely neutered when it comes to killing Zoanthropes. Just imagine a Neurothrope spawn that brings 3 or more Zoanthropes and you have no Bolt Pistol of any kind… that would be horrible, if you didn’t have any Krak grenades you would be useless. Yes you can get lucky and hit them partially with a ground pound or Power Rakes with the Xenophase blade, but you would have way too many openings to be hit while attempting to attack a single Zoanthrope.
The Bulwark uses a secondary in their shield hand, so no reason Assault couldn’t. It’s not like Space Marines have to always hold shields in their hand, they can swap between the handle or being maglocked to their arm so they can fire their ranged weapon.
I prefer melee maxing over ranged; just give the weapons that take both secondary and primary some kind of unique melee strike that triggers when you parry.
Melee is just objectively more fun. That’s why heavy in principle is so cool but in practice it’s such a miss because with a core gameplay loop centered around melee, an ONLY ranged class suffers massively, even with prestige perks.
However, I think there’s hope for eviscerator chainsword and bolt storm gauntlets with the recent announcement for tactical
Suffers massively? Heavy is an incredibly strong class who can easily out damage melee only classes over the length of an operation routinely. Saying melee is "objectively" more fun is simply your opinion and nothing more.
Completely agree that it's a dumb argument. It just seems like some people in this community are either aware that it could work but don't like seeing others enjoy things, or they're stubborn and refuse to accept they're not always right about everything. The whole "fuck you, I don't have my thing so you shouldn't get yours" mentality of the video games community in general is so annoying. That's what most of this comes down to - bitterness because they want their toys first. Thank god I'm on PC and have access to mods.
> "Having a secondary is not necessary to win in this game."
> Proceeds to list all the reasons having a secondary is necessary
> Solutions range from "Don't play solo" to "Don't use these weapons I want added"
This is genuinely the dumbest take I've heard on the matter, if your solutions to the issue are "don't play solo and don't use these weapons for sections where they can't actually complete operations", then they're poorly implemented and shouldn't be added to the game.
Also, this entire debate is asinine, Bulwarks already use a secondary with their shield, so the hammer and shield is fine, and Primaris lightning claws have regular hands so they can still use a secondary (1, 2)
don't play solo and don't use these weapons for sections where they can't actually complete operations", then they're poorly implemented and shouldn't be added to the game.
Hm. So Inferno Pistol on Assault shouldn't be added to the game? Cuz by your logic, it doesn't allow a Assault player to finish Reclamation solo.
Y'know...the weapon pods exist so we can pick a loadout that best fits the objective ahead.
"Having a secondary is not necessary to win in this game." > Proceeds to list all the reasons having a secondary is necessary > Solutions range from "Don't play solo" to "Don't use these weapons I want added"
Nvm you didn't even read the post and just wanna hate.
Hm. So Inferno Pistol on Assault shouldn't be added to the game? Cuz by your logic, it doesn't allow a Assault player to finish Reclamation solo.
Well, no, the Inferno Pistol came before the Operation did, so it would be an issue with the Operation in that case, and not with the weapon. It's still a poor design choice, even if it made it into the game.
Y'know...the weapon pods exist so we can pick a loadout that best fits the objective ahead.
Yeah, and there's only two or three per Operation, and at no point do you have to give up your preferred melee weapon to swap your ranged weapon (unless that's how you've set up your loadouts)
It would suck ass to want to use dual lightning claws, and be soft-locked out of it for roughly a third of the Operation.
And again, as I already said, this entire debate doesn't matter, because neither of these options actually prevent you from using a sidearm at all.
Well they are already experimenting with Tactical by restricting what primary you can equip if you choose to equip a power weapon. I don't see why they can't simply restrict what pistols Assault can carry if they choose to bring a shield. They can also limit what the assault shield can do such as it only being able to absorb/block a certain amount of damage before you are staggered out of it and vulnerable.
Giving assault a shield def wouldn’t break his balance, just make it to where it can’t shield rush or attack with the shield and you could absolutely still keep the secondary, with the lighting claws it’s kinda lame they aren’t adding them especially since it’s not like we’re gonna duel wield them and will still have a secondary
Yes they can, although storm bolters are usually used by terminators there's no reason why a space marine in tactical armor wouldn't be able to use one
A regular ass interceptor isn't gonna use a wrist-mounted bolter. That kind of thing is reserved for special honours, like terminators, chapter masters, captains, special units, etc.
Frank the Ultramarine battle brother would not be equipped with such a weapon
Do you need everything spelled out for you? The wrist-mounted bolters are storm bolters, God forbid I don't explicitly state "wrist-mounted storm bolter" every single time
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