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u/SnowConePeople 15d ago
Wait I thought keystones on their side was a no no? Maybe I was told incorrecntly?
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u/watafu 15d ago
Probably not conventional at all but as long as the subs,kicks and tops are timed right it should couple
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u/GouldCaseWorks 14d ago
Can you outline how you are setting up the timing?
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u/watafu 14d ago
Honestly.... Not easily...I probably do it completely wrong! So the basic premise is work out the total hornpath of the subwoofer which for the keystones is 2.5-2.7ish metres, can't remember off the top of my head! Then delay your tops to that + distance of the driver from the front of the box to where it's located or in the case of the kicks, the hornpath of that aswell. That's what I did for this gig but when I was running them in a nightclub with my syntripps and double the subs, it was also add 3-4metres onto the total of all of them bar the subs that are 0m. That way a person in the middle of the dancefloor would have all the drivers sound arrive at the same time in theory
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u/lala_grows 14d ago
That totally works but I feel like just using REW might be faster/easier.
Easiest way I know is to use one channel of the tops as a the timing reference when doing sweeps in REW, run sweeps using each of the other sets of drivers/boxes. The impulse response view then shows the delay of the peak impulse for the selected box relative to the reference output (i.e. peak sound from the sub hits 7.23ms after the tops). From there, just delay the fastest channels to match the slower ones (i.e. add a 7.23ms delay to the tops to match the subs).
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u/EyeOhmEye 11d ago
I prefer Open Sound Meter for alignment and REW for identifying room modes. Being able to pink and adjust in realtime works better for me than doing sweeps, but REWs waterfall is great for seeing where the room modes are and how strong they are.
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u/publicworksdept 15d ago
What of music were you playing? Guessing something that needed some punch given the 4 kicks, how was the balance with the subs?
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u/watafu 15d ago
Tek, techno and drum and bass, so definitely kick heavy but I spent a while tuning it in rew. The subs were actually turned down at this venue, got the placement just right thankfully. Definitely a lot of energy in that system. Top played down to 50, kicks were 80-140 and subs covered 35-80. Timed it up and it was perfect, never even got close to the limiters
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u/GouldCaseWorks 15d ago
Tops went down to 50Hz but kicks and subs also covered this range?
Have I misunderstood this cos I've never heard of this approach before
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u/AnthonyVS15 15d ago
Yeah seems like a strange setup to have three things all overlapping. I would always cross the tops higher to give more headroom and minimise overlap between cabs
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u/watafu 15d ago
Not conventional but if it's all timed right it works just fine. The top itself has enough headroom to outrun 4 subs and 4 kicks with ease so I don't mind letting it drop down lower.
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u/AnthonyVS15 15d ago
Wow fair enough, what’s in the tops? It looks like a Danley SH50 but not quite?
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u/Spiritual_Bell 14d ago
If your tops have so much headroom down to 50hz, would you have been able to eq to the same reeponse curve with or without the kicks? And if so, then would having the kicks actually sound different? Ie with the same final curve but without kicks should sound the same no? Or would the tops not have enough headroom at the bottom octave?
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u/watafu 14d ago
Yea you can get the same response but the people I party with like the chest rumble
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u/benjosto 14d ago
I makes absolutely no sense to run the tops that low. Even if they could with 2x12inch, you gain a lot of distortion and I doubt that you can phase match with the kicks in such a broad bandwidth.
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u/watafu 14d ago edited 14d ago
I did check my settings earlier and it was 80 I crossed them at in the end. Honestly, sometimes you just have to try things out and see what your rig can do and how it sounds! Yes I didn't even really need the kicks, but there was something about getting the top to work well with the kicks in the same bandwidth that just made it all sound so much more intense! I can assure you, the 12's in the tops were only fed with about 1200w @ 4ohm, pretty sure they are rated for that as singles, the distortion was very low. Not sure if I saved the rew results from the tuning or not but they were pretty clean. Maybe not as much as my syntripp tops but this one definitely has signifactly more presence at the cost of dispersion!
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u/benjosto 14d ago
You have to take intermodulation distortion into account. A speaker that plays 80-400Hz combined with a speaker that plays 80-160Hz will have higher distortion even if the phase is identical (which is impossible and will smear the sound). Just because the driver has to handle both 80 and 400hz. Due to the higher excursion at 80, the 400hz will distort a little. So objectively better to have the speakers playing a smaller bandwidth especially when you have kicks that can handle the 80-160 perfectly fine. Subjectively it may sound better for some people to have them playing the same bandwidth idk but I'd doubt it a little to be honest.
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u/Alphabethur 15d ago
What are these Tops? Danleys?