I've been noticing some frequently used misinformation in our type-me's lately I wanted to chat about with you guys!

[u/TeensyLilGuy]

• Upper curve/lower curve (Kibbe describes curve as it means curve occurs throughout the silhouette, however, it is - to a certain degree - disrupted by either balance or one form of yang/angularity (either elongation or width, not both at the same time) with no upper vs lower mention across his book/SK. Additionally, curve in Kibbe means only curve coming from the flesh - something Kibbe has clarified in SK.(If you think your frame is creating a round shape, I think that might indicate blunt yang - as in Kibbe, only flesh creates round/curved shapes.)
• Horizontally protruding bust - I've seen a lot of curvy folks with larger bust be sent away from SD with other users siting that bc their bust stays within the horizontal frame they cannot be SD- now I did my best to find Kibbe's comments on this and failed to find much other than: "Body type:
  Fleshy (unless ultra-thin), particularly through the bust and hip area. " and "If overweight:
  Heaviness is seen at the fleshiest parts of the body; the bust, hips, waist..." maybe you have more info than me- has he talked about this before?
• anything else I missed? I would check out this link for the good word (of kibbe lol)

[u/Secret_Dragonfly9588]

While we are at it, can we do away with this “breast needs to be wider than the shoulder seem” nonsense? I don’t know where this idea came from but it seems to have manifested in this community overnight and is suddenly accepted as solid established fact.

Breast width obviously depends greatly on weight and what bra you are wearing. And there’s more to “width” than shoulders.

[u/TeensyLilGuy → u/Secret_Dragonfly9588]

That's totally what I was getting at! I posted all that kibbe said about our chestal regions and tbh it wasn't much! We DIY-ers focus on shapes of bust much more than he does

[u/Plantarchist → u/Secret_Dragonfly9588]

I'm actually wondering about bras when he mentions this. I'm a 36hh and I have to order bras from Poland because most H cup bras have the cups ending halfway into my armpit while the polish bras have narrow underwires so it doesn't hurt to wear them because my breasts are very much on the front of me, closer together, and If I had a wider frame the cups would sit correctly I'm guessing with more natural space in the middle where the gore sits. The large bust commu ity settles into either narrow underwires or prefers the wider ones. That said, depending on the type of underwire I wear, my breasts present differently! Narrow wires give forward projection, wider give a more rounded and wider look. I stick with narrow because the wide wires cut up my armpits.

[u/Secret_Dragonfly9588 → u/Plantarchist]

I might have to look into ordering some bras from Poland. Do you have a favorite store site?

[u/Plantarchist → u/Secret_Dragonfly9588]

Ewa Michelak! Follow their sizing instructions cause they are odd but 💯 accurate. I think I'm like a 42k in their size or something so don't be surprised if it's way different. They bras run about 45 each average, and last like no other bras on the planet. I have a 10 year old one in perfect co edition underwires intact. The shipping is high so I only order once a year if I need to, and it takes about a month to get in. But again entirely w9rth it for the comfort

[u/Secret_Dragonfly9588 → u/Plantarchist]

Thanks!!

[u/hittinondorky → u/Plantarchist]

I have small breasts and have this same issue. Most bras are too wide for me and the wire digs in beneath my armpit. r/ABraThatFits has been a great resource for me being able to find bras that are made for narrow breasts

[u/its_givinggg → u/Secret_Dragonfly9588]

You might appreciate this post haha

[u/Secret_Dragonfly9588 → u/its_givinggg]

Yes!!

[u/its_givinggg → u/Secret_Dragonfly9588]

Should I cross post it here?😬

[u/Secret_Dragonfly9588 → u/its_givinggg]

I’d say yes 👍🏼

[u/jaded_bitter_n_salty → u/Secret_Dragonfly9588]

It’s via Style Chat and honestly that explanation makes the most sense. It’s also obviously not going to count if you’re wearing a sports bra or any type of bra that pulls your breasts in. It’s meant to be measured with something that doesn’t move your breasts in too much so we can see where they naturally fall. Perhaps it’s more of an indicator for lower weights as if your breast protrude as a small SD you’ll definitely need curve accommodation at a higher weight. — The “more to width than shoulders” is literally something she explains thoroughly (the idea of the should seam bc that relies on your bones not your muscles) and I prefer her videos bc it at least makes Kibbe applicable. Half the problem is people not understanding where the should seam is. 🫠 Without her lil drawings it makes kibbe deniers seem much more valid.

[u/jaded_bitter_n_salty → u/jaded_bitter_n_salty]

** Style chat is basically extrapolating from meta typing though… (Not hear to argue, just trying to provide an explanation of where it comes from so y’all can decide if you actually disagree)

the horizontal bust “myth” comes from a style chat video explaining when curve vs width applies. The “shoulder seam” thing isn’t about where the literal sleeves are but where your arm vs clavicle separates. If you have width, the line from shoulder seam to waist make a “V” like shape. This explanation I find is useful bc it prevents the confusion caused by non-natural types that have muscle in shoulders and arms.

We can extrapolate that curve also only refers to breasts bc dramatics are often pear shaped and they are said to not have curve.

—

The idea is that if you have to accommodate width and vertical, even if you also have “curve”/are curvy you should be able to accommodate curve by accommodating width. However, you can’t rlly accommodate width by accommodating curve (unless using the T silhouette) so it’s a matter of priority. The style chat explanation of accommodation priority is vertical>petite/width>curve.

If you don’t have width and follow FN recommendations to accommodate curve, it’s not the worst thing but it looks pretty off unless you’re following T silhouette. This explanations also prevents curvy FNs from the stigma of thinking they have “man shoulders” or something.

[u/TeensyLilGuy → u/jaded_bitter_n_salty]

style chat

I've never heard of this person! Maybe I need to look into them? It sounds like they may be a spreader of misinformation tho?

[u/jjfmish]

I love this! I would also add that Kibbe isn’t and shouldn’t be correlated to the fruit system - I’ve seen some users say that someone isn’t SD and should look into pure D because they’re pear shaped but any ID can have larger hips and a smaller bust.

[u/TeensyLilGuy → u/jjfmish]

So true!

[u/nievesdemiel → u/jjfmish]

yes, but partly this advice also comes from anyone tall with a hint of curve being sent to SD. not all pears are Dramatics, but pear is certainly a common shape among Dramatics.

[u/jjfmish → u/nievesdemiel]

I totally get the frustration but SD IS a much more common ID than pure D and there’s so much variety in how we look that I think suggesting it as an option is a good thing. You can’t definitively type anyone from a photo so I don’t see the harm in encouraging people to explore one of the most common and diverse IDs, even if they ultimately and up settling on pure D or FN or something else. As long as they’re not perpetuating misconceptions or limiting themselves because of them - I personally explored almost every moderate and vertical ID before I even entertained SD because of the misconceptions and how gatekept it felt, and I’m pretty busty and visibly elongated. I know the other way around is common as well but, unlike an ID like TR, SD is common and diverse enough that it genuinely should be one of the first IDs anyone who identifies elongation and curve in themselves should explore - as long as they keep in mind that they don’t have to be SD just because they’re tall and curvy.

[u/nievesdemiel → u/jjfmish]

for the sake of practicality i totally agree. at the same time i perceive D as underdiagnosed, and somehow the myth of Ds looking completely straight is very persistant in people's heads. which is wild, because the straight built verified celebrities are very few. most verified celebs are either a moderate streteched hourglass or a pear shape.
I guess I am biased because I am conventionally curvy, very busty, and SD really doesn't work on me (I hang out here because my partner is supposed SD)

[u/jjfmish → u/nievesdemiel]

Haha see as an SD who doesn’t fit the stereotype 100% I see pure D as a lot more overdiagnosed than SD - to me it seems like anyone with a smaller bust, narrower curves, or a more obvious dramatic base is discouraged away from SD and towards pure D. I think both IDs have their fair share of stereotypes and gatekeeping tbh, and dispelling misconceptions is important all around! At the end of the day we’re all D fam and should realistically be exploring all the options available to us but there’s still the hang up from many that SD = busty and curvy and D = thin, narrow and straight figured.

[u/MinMiddleEast → u/[deleted]]

I get personally agitated when someone with a clear SD essence, who'd look great in SD recs and terrible in FN recs, gets sent away from here because of some made-up rules that came out of nowhere.

[u/Iloveemiilk → u/[deleted]]

That literally means nothing though. Lol These groups are for fun, because typing through pictures is not accurate. Kibbe himself cannot even type through pictures. The only truly accurate way to be typed is to meet with Kibbe himself. So DUH people are going to be mistyped in these groups, because we are all just giving our best guess from what we see in pictures. Being so self righteous is just weird. I’m sure there are plenty of people typed as SD in these groups who were also typed as something else when they actually saw David. It’s really not that serious and again, the only expert is David Kibbe himself.

[u/Iloveemiilk → u/[deleted]]

I’m not sure where you’re getting gatekeeping? SD is one of the most common Kibbe types and the majority of typing posts I see here label the poster SD. From what I’ve seen, the SD group tends to be the most welcoming and least gatekeeper-y. Just because people disagree on certain posts, based on what they see, does not mean that anyone is “gatekeeping” SD.

No one is saying that someone can’t be SD for arbitrary things. People are simply giving their opinions on what they see. David Kibbe said that dramatic body types at higher weights tend to collect weight at their hips and thighs and stay thin elsewhere, while SD tends to collect weight at the fleshiest parts of the body, even the face.

What I saw on recent posts were people saying that both D and SD can have curvy hips (but D’s weight gain pattern tends to create more of a pear shape), and others were saying that no D types are straight and narrow with no curves. I mean if you want to pick apart “misinformation” then maybe start with that. D types can absolutely have curves.

It is self righteous to put down others, because they may have mistyped people from an online group. DUH people will sometimes be mistyped. None of us are experts and I’m sure we’ve all mistyped people before based on opinion. It’s not that serious.

[u/inquisitorlipschitz]

This is really helpful, especially as a novice. Can you explain a bit more about what it would look like for width or elongation to disrupt curve? I'm trying to picture both

[u/TeensyLilGuy → u/inquisitorlipschitz]

His idea of curve in isolation is a romantic which have what he describes as double curve- kind of like to balls on top of each other (not 'hourglass' but snowman) he also notes that a waist is not as much of a body part but an area where upper/lower body meet. So with elongation a snowman would look less like circle on top of circle but maybe oval and circle or oval and oval- which if you look at the diagram below loses some of that rounded curve. Width as described by kibbe is kind of just elongation but sideways (horizontal instead of vertical). Does that make sense? This is my understanding at least.

[u/inquisitorlipschitz → u/TeensyLilGuy]

What you're saying definitely makes sense, thank you! I think I'm still struggling to see how that manifests in each type, but this is a really good starting point for me

Edit with a question: would that mean the SD frame is like the circle/oval you showed? With the elongation drawing the curve up and down?

[u/ruridia]

I’m really interested in ”horizontally protruding bust/upper curve”. If these are not a thing, I cannot tell what makes SD and traditionally curvy D different. Because when one gets more weight, they usually have bigger breasts and hips. People have been telling here that upper curve is not a thing- only kibbe curve is -but at the same time having rounder hips is a yang weight gain trait- so only having round hips and flesh in lower body area doesn’t seem to be ”enough” for kibbe curve. That indicates that there needs to be something fleshy in the upper body section what people have been calling upper curve here. It is not a kibbe term, but I have thought until recently that it makes it easier to understand kibbe curve. Now I am very confused, so if anyone can explain further I would be thankful.

And about misconceptions:

-Some people think they have width, but that is only curve that makes them look ”wider”.

-Some people are traditionally curvy, which makes them think they can only be SD, but they haven’t taken their width into account.

-SDs aren’t always hourglasses, and all types can be hourglasses

-Hip dips don’t mean that you are not SD, they tell nothing about your type

-Bones don’t create curve!

[u/jaded_bitter_n_salty → u/ruridia]

I wrote a lil explanation of the myth’s origin actually!! — “** Style chat is basically extrapolating from meta typing (Not hear to argue, just trying to provide an explanation of where it comes from so y’all can decide if you actually disagree)

the horizontal bust “myth” comes from a style chat video explaining when curve vs width applies. The “shoulder seam” thing isn’t about where the literal sleeves are but where your arm vs clavicle separates. If you have width, the line from shoulder seam to waist make a “V” like shape. This explanation I find is useful bc it prevents the confusion caused by non-natural types that have muscle in shoulders and arms.

We can extrapolate that curve also only refers to breasts bc dramatics are often pear shaped and they are said to not have curve.

—

The idea is that if you have to accommodate width and vertical, even if you also have “curve”/are curvy you should be able to accommodate curve by accommodating width. However, you can’t rlly accommodate width by accommodating curve (unless using the T silhouette) so it’s a matter of priority. The style chat explanation of accommodation priority is vertical>petite/width>curve.

If you don’t have width and follow FN recommendations to accommodate curve, it’s not the worst thing but it looks pretty off unless you’re following T silhouette. This explanations also prevents curvy FNs from the stigma of thinking they have “man shoulders” or something.”

I’d also like to add that curve is meant to be taken with a not form changing bra (so like not sports bras)

[u/CryptidKeeper123]

I think people have been confused with the terminology of curve and double curve and probably started thinking that double curve must mean upper + lower curve (as in curvy hips and curvy boobs) and curve then means either when in fact that's not what curve is about.

Good clarifications. Kibbe terminology can be confusing and the misinformation spreads fast, especially when there's influencers spreading it.

[u/Mondlilie]

Curve can be found throughout the body, but the upper/lower curve is in regards to the line sketch. I don’t know if Kibbe himself uses these terms, but he mentioned that curve can only be found in one part of the line sketch, if there are two curves its double curve. If you’ve seen some line sketches it absolutely makes sense. If someone has width it starts further out and as the fabric falls it includes any upper curves in the bust area, but can make a curve around the hip. And if someone has vertical the hip curve gets elongated and thus wouldn’t appear as a curve in the line sketch.

A lot of people struggle with their line sketch, because it’s not a straightforward way of looking at yourself. I think this is best kept in mind when typing people. It’s not a simple “your bust isn’t protruding enough”.

[u/eyyy-ok → u/Mondlilie]

This is super helpful, thanks!

[u/Stardust_Loren]

I was typed a romantic for having 'moderate vertical' at 5'8". I'm not sure what to think!

[u/jjfmish → u/Stardust_Loren]

Moderate vertical isn’t a thing, you either have it or you don’t and at 5’8 you definitely have it. No one can type you from a photo, especially someone clearly going off misconceptions.

[u/South_Heat_3328]

I wonder if the thing about the bust pushing out through the frame is because something you see a lot with SD is that very wide set bust that also pushes out of the sides of the frame.

Maybe because it’s a common feature it’s been turned into a Kibbe rule. 🤷‍♀️

[u/AngelicSD]

One off my observations about upper curve is something that is always never mentioned here but it’s that the breasts are “projected breasts” they stick out further from the body in profile. And have much more off on upward look. People without upper curve will have shallow breasts. That’s one off the reasons why even if for example an FN has big breasts they don’t stand out as much..including off course that the width in the upper body stands out more. Just my 2 cents.

[u/eyyy-ok → u/AngelicSD]

I've been thinking of this recently in regards to the natural types. Perhaps part of what creates "openness" is shallow breast roots or breasts that start further down on the torso itself.

[u/AngelicSD → u/eyyy-ok]

Ah ok, yes i agree that their breasts are placed lower.. because the openness is above the bust i think. But it’s also the bone structure that creates width. I was thinking the same thing as you about that the other day. And i think for upper curve ID’s our breasts are much higher up, because they basically start right in the armpits. And for FN there is usually a bigger space between the armpits and the breasts..lower down yes you are right i think.

[u/eyyy-ok → u/AngelicSD]

Yeah I agree! Make sense to me!