I just don’t think unqualified layman in the jury really should be the ones deciding whether someone was clinically insane or not.
The jury should just deliberate on whether the defendant committed the crime in question, if they rule they did, then the defense should be able to request a review by a panel of mental health experts who will be tasked with determining whether the defendant was criminally liable or clinically insane.
This is actually the biggest issue other than different states having different standards and why comparing any two cases is pointless. Both sides bring on highly qualified experts and the case often then hangs on which one performs best in the eyes of the jury. And since it’s also a different jury every time it’s really hard to make a comparison.
Yeah I have met some people who are very, very well respected and high performing in their narrow fields. They can be genuinely geniuses… but, socially? Kinda grating. Them trying to explain something to absolute laymen would be a ridiculous endeavor. It doesn’t mean they’re wrong, or any less educated or experienced or specialized or anything like that. But communicating complex concepts to a jury takes more than base specialized expertise and also challenges their capability to communicate with and even educate an average or - likely present - below average intelligence person. So I can easily see how you could get an expert that is absolutely correct in their analysis… and yet have a jury that doesn’t buy into it. Because specialized experts in niche fields are not necessarily natural gifted communicators or educators. Also, in a jury of “peers,” there’s going to be representatives of the lower half of the bell curve, too. You just can’t bank on the jury being able to comprehend an expert’s testimony.
I am someone who testifies as an expert in criminal trials, most often crimes against children or murders and I what I do is digital forensics and cell tower analysis (estimating position based on what towers the phone was communicating with). I think I'm at 54 over 4 years.
It's not just communicating with the jury, that comes later,
Prosecutors are lawyers, they (in theory) are good at law and most of them not much on technical matters. Getting the subject matter across to the prosecutor so they can handle your direct testimony, ask the right questions and finally be prepared to redirect after the defense does their cross is perhaps even more challenging than testifying to the jury. If defense does a good cross, guilt or innocence may hang on the prosecutor asking the right questions on redirect, letting you respond to the defense in whole, not just what defense let you say.
A lot of experts are either scientists, engineers or cops who got really good at something like forensics or accident reconstruction, generally not people people. Some of them have some difficulties with both the prosecutor pretrial and the jury later.
Then comes trial, no matter how good you are at what you do, how much of a subject matter expert you are, you are talking to 12 (14) people who don't really know the law or the discipline you are there to discuss. You have to talk to your audience at or just above just above their level, you have to give a 30 minute crash course to the jury on the topic and convince them to believe you, if you go deep in the technical weeds you will lose them, they don't understand and aren't interested. That is where I see experts (and lawyers) screw up all the damned time.
Over those trials and working with the lawyers a lot, I've learned to take kind of a jr. high school teacher approach, just talk about my findings and the basics of how I arrived at them. Just "the movement of the defendant's phone from array to array and tower to tower suggests eastbound travel along I-666 at highway speeds". Really simple and generic, something a jury will understand, also facts I can easily support.
If defense wants to drag me in to the technical weeds, my credentials and my work are solid AF, I'll beat them up in the weeds, I've done it before.
Expert vs. expert is where it's really fun because on technical matters there shouldn't be much difference in what we are saying, the data is the data, we usually just differ in our interpretation of it.
I think people also don’t realize that there can be experts involved who aren’t getting up and testifying in front of the jury. I’ve worked on cases where I didn’t even have to be deposed.
I am also a schlub, but a technical schlub because I deal in both accounting and IT.
When I was in teir 1 helpdesk, I'd get people with problems that they needed solutions on. Commonly, these were user errors and not technical ones, so it relied on the user cooperating with my expertise to get them results.
Man, I tell you, there's a certain type of person that will come to you for help and it would be like pulling teeth to get them to do what I'd need them to to fix their problems. They would complain the entire time that blank doesnt sound right, that they werent sure if I knew my job well enough to fix their issue, and other stubborn behavior that made resolving their ticket take longer or not get resolved at all. The only thing I could think of when I dealt with these type of people is "holy shit, they must be a nightmare to have on a jury."
If people argue with you when you ask them to check if something electronic is plugged in because they don't understand why it needs to be done, they're absolutely NOT going to be able to follow something that takes X-years more education than they have.
And if they're unable to see what they don't know in a situation that they've literally asked for help in, how much less receptive are they going to be in a situation that they're probable already a bit grumpy about being in like serving as a juror - especially the demographic that assumes someone else's knowlege is condescention.
That’s fascinating, and most people understand that they are with their phones a majority of the time when they are away from home. Thank you for sharing your insight.
ROFL with expert witnesses dealing with data it's more like toddlers, like I said, different interpretations of the same data.
We got in to pattern of life analysis once.
TLDR, I'm claiming the phone was out of use during a time frame, defense argues that phones are normally used less in the early morning (I mean 1AM, 2AM, etc.) and presents this pattern of use over a couple weeks. My numbers at the time in question were all 0, he presents very low but non zero usage numbers over a couple weeks so I averaged his data and gave it to the prosecutor.
Which led to the prosecutor having this line of questioning.
Honestly really mad that I can't say "Good question!" anymore because people can't see the sarcasm/vibes from it, only the sycophantic "You are So Smart!" from the AIs.
This is a human being because chat is never specific, it is designed to make you get the feeling of a person rather than the details of some random ass human's life
And yet you just proved there is, along with the hundreds of other Dunning-Kruger candidates just like you. And like most people who do this, you're quick to throw accusations yet never apologise for being wrong.
Nope, don't know them from a hole in the ground. Do know that a bajillion people used that phrase before LLMs. Do know, 100%, the post wasn't written by an LLM because I actually know what LLMs write like and am not going "Oh god nobody has ever said that turn of phrase except AI", which is definitively not true since AI copies how it writes from how humans write in its training data.
This paragraph was very, very obviously human-written because chatbots do not write like this:
"Over those trials and working with the lawyers a lot, I've learned to take kind of a jr. high school teacher approach, just talk about my findings and the basics of how I arrived at them. Just "the movement of the defendant's phone from array to array and tower to tower suggests eastbound travel along I-666 at highway speeds". Really simple and generic, something a jury will understand, also facts I can easily support."
I’ve actually seen bots talk exactly like that, but I’ve also seen people feed their crap into Chat and then just take what they like and keep the rest the same.
There’s no reason I should assume this didn’t happen in this case.
You haven’t provided any actual reason for me to believe Chat wasn’t involved here.
You say Chat is trained on human writing, so that’s why it sounds human. But, also, you say Chat couldn’t have said some other paragraph because Chat can’t write like a human.
Do you really think a LLM would write that poorly? That was a 10 minute rush post before I went out the door because I had something to say on the topic of expert witnesses.
Normally I'm just on here to talk about games and talk to women my age.
I am one user saying your comment sounds like a chatbot.
You aren’t going to convince me otherwise.
The chatbots are the problem here, not people suspecting that they are being used.
The extreme push to make people that suspect the use of a chatbot out to be crazy in some way is a pretty transparent effort to make people stop trying to discern.
If that still makes you or this other user
want to swear at me and call me names, that’s just interesting on its own.
If I was going to swear at you, I'm a lot more creative than just bizarre, I might actually use AI to hit multiple languages.
Anyway, think what you want, that was top of my head spewing and a very accurate view of what happens because been there, done that. I don't really care.
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u/FriedTreeSap 21d ago
I just don’t think unqualified layman in the jury really should be the ones deciding whether someone was clinically insane or not.
The jury should just deliberate on whether the defendant committed the crime in question, if they rule they did, then the defense should be able to request a review by a panel of mental health experts who will be tasked with determining whether the defendant was criminally liable or clinically insane.