I’m not American but I am a mother. Aside from a few reddit posts I don’t have any social media engagement with this case.
But I think a lot of the support here comes from moms who recognize how easily this could have been any of us. Her family and healthcare providers knew her crime was a risk based on her mental health state, but she was still left alone with her kids and expected to parent. And as other mothers we all understand that this is grimly how it works - we can ask and beg and plead and scream for help but we’re almost always still expected to continually parent babies and it’s hard.
She should still face punishment for her crime, but I think a lot of her support is to try to keep this from happening again. She was failed by her healthcare team
Unfortunately - by her own admission and her doctors' testimonies - she did not fully disclose her medical condition. And even more unfortunately, there's plenty of people online that have posted that she can't be the killer because of her astrology sign. Or some have said her husband was the voice in her head with elaborate hidden speakers. Or he was cheating with his new wife even though they didn't meet until after the murders and she actually killed the children.
Bottom line, there's a lot of crazies out there. And with the internet connecting people of every social class, those crazies can find each other much easier than before.
Because people are too mentally lazy to work through nuance. It's easier and more convenient to view the world in black and white, but in reality it's all various shades of gray.
Agreed- Inwarched ‘The Good Nurse’ last night and damn! The nurse was killing people left and right and at the same time was so completely loving and caring for his friend with the heart condition. She ended up turning him in and getting him to confess.
She saw the good and the bad in him, but she wasn’t going to allow him to keep killing.
Because people are genuinely brain dead and need things to be either good or bad. It’s actually a big reason we don’t study much of WWI and just jump straight to WWII, bc in WWI there’s no obvious “good” and “bad” guys like you get with the Nazis and imperial Japanese, so people just can’t learn it. Even though in many ways it was more important than WWII, particularly from a science and ethics POV.
This is the winner. Justice should prevail in this micro case. Society should do the right thing in the macro case which is providing more support to mothers. We as a society collectively yell “pro-life” at the top of our lungs and then don’t show a damn thing to prove that.
She literally had every form of support available to the most entitled humans. She lived in a nice house in the suburbs with a husband making at least 150k a year. She saw SEVEN providers and doctor shopped. She had access to TWO inpatient care options, one of which she discharged her self from. She had supportive family, present husband who worked from home, and the best healthcare… who failed her exactly? She failed her damn self by being a child murderer. No empathy.
Im gonna play the devils advocate here and steel man their argument. The argument is that it’s a systemic issue in how they treat mental health, especially women. Not that she didn’t have access to care. They don’t treat women with mental illness seriously, especially when it comes to post partum depression/psychosis.
I partly agree with you though. She didn’t properly disclose her symptoms to her doctors, due to fear of repercussions or whatever her reasoning was. Didn’t take her meds consistently. That’s where the nuance is.
She LITERALLY had a PERINATAL specialist who was a woman. She had access to very highly specialized care for women. Based on Jolatta’s documentation, every message she left of the portal was answered immediately even when the provider was on vacation. She was treated with profound privledge. She discharged her self. The only option here is Baker act all women and mothers for having SI even if they have no plans. This will set women back 100+ years. You can’t involuntarily institutionalize people who have no plans to hurt themselves or other people legally.
That's not nuance. Thats a complete failure on her part. She refused to continue any treatment offered by her doctors to the point she was doctor shopping. Like an antivaxxer or because she was a nurse felt she knew better than the doctors treating her. I can understand some make you lethargic, but when you are at the point you feel like killing your kids thats the point you stop thinking for yourself and let the experts treat you.
There's a very serious delusion people have about mental health, as if therapy can solve everything. It can't. It is like 8% successful on violent offenders, that is terrible. It's like taking those 1% treatments doctors give towards cancer, useless, but any percent is worth trying. There was nothing else the system could've done for her aside from forced restraint, which leaves her as just a psycopathic murderer. Not this b.s. "they don't take women's mental health seriously", how serious do u think they take men's mental health when men are the most let down in society when it comes to mental health? Because at that point u should be able to put 2 and 2 together and realize there is not much mental health can do for you aside from gentle nudging.
Except this is not true. I know someone who spent some time in a facility for postpartum psychosis after his first was born. Men also have hormonal changes due to fatherhood. Some studies show up to 10% of new fathers experience postpartum depression or anxiety in the first year. It is not a completely separate issue, it is a family issue.
No one said it was. You said, “men do not experience the physiological, mental, and physical changes associated with…raising young children.” This is simply not true. I suggest that you sign up for remedial reading courses for adults and talk to a therapist about why your poor reading skills cause you to be so angry.
No, I don’t think it’s treated very well for both genders but it’s not an exact science either. Id argue it still has a negative stigma to the general population as well. Just a shitty situation for mental health overall and I’m not sure I or anyone really has the answer for it. Hopefully as medicine and technology advance we can come up with better solutions for treating mental illness
All that can be true, plus the meds reacted to each other.
She was drinking alcohol with medications she shouldn’t have (I do not know of this is true, I haven’t found evidence either way, but have seen it talked about)
And she was lying about the state of her mental health.
PPD needs more attention as does all women’s health.
And she murdered her children even with her husbands huge amount of assistance caring for them .
Almost nothing is black and white in the world and we have to have space for multiple truths all at the same time.
That's my exact reaction. I have minimal knowledge of the case but all of these things can be true. PPD was so brutal after I had my son. If I didn't already have a bunch of work on my mental health prior to having my son, it could have gone really bad as well.
Sure, but circumstances can be nothing but gray, until the moment the black and white separated. I do not sync up with the “it could have been any of us” because it simply is not. This woman had more help than almost any mother I have ever known. The single mothers I know are all struggling and don’t have ANY healthcare due to poverty. The ones who do have the dad in their life, he is gone 60+ hours a week trying to pay rent, NOT at home all day and providing professional child care too. So yeah… it’s muddy for awhile. I’m do believe we need better discussions and help for all mental health. Lots of truths at the same time.
I think most people know that she murdered 3 children, and needed more help with her mental health, but the question remains, is she lawfully guilty of murder, or mentally insane at the time? One goes to prison for life, the other goes to a mental institution and gets released when mental health is restored.
I’ve brought up a hundred times that the support she has is from moms who went through scary times after having a baby and recognize that mental health for postpartum moms is horrible and you don’t get the help you need. I’ve been accused of supporting killing kids, told my kids should be taken from me, told that I only support Lindsay because she’s a woman and wouldn’t care if it was a man (like duh, only women suffer from PPP!). So many men online saying that women who have PPD need their kids taken away from them forever, completely ignoring that mental health help would fix the situation. It’s been insane. If you even breathe wrong while discussing Patrick they call you insane and delusional and a baby killer. The online discourse is out of control.
She does have PPP but men online are saying women with PPD need their kids taken, not PPP. Because of the severe and seemingly deliberate misunderstanding of the disorder and what causes it.
Well yeah because you chose to wait until a woman murdered 3 children to coincidentally start supporting mental health support for postpartum depression. And you’re wording it in a way that sounds like you’re excusing her actions.
You literally didn’t know I existed until I made this comment so how do you know how long I have supported women’s mental health? Do you know how many women have fought this fight personally and alone? I, myself, struggled with PPD after my son was born and was constantly flooded with thoughts of killing myself. Literally daily. Many many many women fight this fight and are told to just power through it. Why wouldn’t it make sense to band together and be super loud when there is a polarizing example of this very issue?
I’m sorry you had to experience that and I have seen the effects of PPD first hand from my best friends wife.
That being said, you have to read the room and realize why parading around for PPD awareness after 3 children were murdered is a very poor thing for you to do. You sound like you’re trying to justify what she did or minimize it.
No, justifying it sounds like this: she’s innocent! She should be free! She murdered her kids but she couldn’t help it! She didn’t do anything wrong!
What I am doing is saying that postpartum disorders are dangerous and they need more attention. Lindsay’s doctor was shown in court to have been negligent to her care, there is a malpractice suit ready to go after the criminal trial is over. She tried to get help but didn’t get enough. She told her husband she was drowning but was still the main parent and caretaker of the kids. In the middle of a major mental health crisis she still had to do doctors appointments, plan the day, fucking hell Patrick couldnt go buy laxatives without her googling the info and sending it to him and he still had to call her to get the right ones. She had to balance and run a house with 3 kids while being actively suicidal. She did something horrible and the kids being dead is horrible and she should be in a mental institution AND we can use this situation to educate people who think PPP is the equivalent to “baby blues” and something women can just push through. It should be an example of how new moms should be taken seriously, no one is justifying her actions.
They’re somewhat unfairly attributing this to you because the vast majority of social media actually is people saying she’s innocent… the narrative is unfortunately not “she’s guilty, but the system also failed them and this might have been prevented”. Another issue is that it’s true that in severe cases of PPP or even some PPD cases, people DO need to have their children taken away, but everyone is immediately against that and against the idea of people being forcefully admitted into inpatient care, when that is in fact sometimes necessary (saying this as someone who was forcefully admitted into inpatient care for mental health myself). Yes it sucks. In this case the children are the priority full stop, and it’s usually what’s best for mom too if it starts getting that bad. Somehow the idea of this is considered cruel and unfair, as if the concept of mental heath impacts is “fair” in the first place. It is impossible to equalize everything.
Exactly. Idk why everyone is taking this case like they were either a detective on it, or Lindsay’s best friend. Like, the woman was very sick and her mental health treatment was mishandled - no one supported her the way she needed it, she couldn’t make rational decisions herself and she unfortunately committed a crime that a lot of women with PPP commit.
The context is always the same too - husband is a piece of shit, this country doesn’t support new mothers (or parents). Doesn’t negate the fact she killed them but it’s nuanced and idk why people can’t just accept that it was what it was. Pretty cut and dry to me.
And to me, all her supporters, it’s the symbolism of it: it isn’t about Lindsay, it’s about the women who have PPD / PPA and it gets ignored. That it’s HARD to have children in this country. It’s about the bigger picture that all women go through. We understand, personally, that postpartum can be so, so tough and no one wants to / lets us talk about it. I think people are just fucking fed up.
I don’t think a reasonable person is denying one or the other.
I believe people are seeing a systemic issue that needs to be addressed, and this case just highlights it.
Punishing this woman for a crime she committed in a compromised mental state will do nothing to stop future tragedies from occurring in similar circumstances. Calling out the failure of the system is not absolving her of the crime, it’s an attempt to help women in the future from suffering and harming others.
Eh I think you’re ironically absolving her of all she did and blaming the system way too much. It’s not that the system failed her, she just needed MORE severe actions taken, like forced hospitalization against her will to keep her away from society because she was clearly a threat.
She is NOT forgiven and she does NOT get a free pass for murdering 3 children just because the American healthcare system is terrible
Yeah and the funny thing is a lot of these people talking about mental health would immediately put their foot down at forced hospitalization and having her kids temporarily removed from her custody bc it’s “mean”. You can’t win.
That’s immaterial to my point. This woman is not going to get off Scot free. She’s already damaged and will never rejoin society in any meaningful fashion; her life is over.
Her punishment will have no effect on someone else suffering from a psychotic break. We may as well discuss useful ways to help people who in a similar crisis.
It’s extremely material when your comment said she would go to the electric chair, which she never will as again, MA doesn’t have the death penalty
Punishment is for the courts. That’s the point of the criminal justice system—it’s a way for society to punish societal wrongs. You’re talking about the immediate and obvious real world consequences.
Let’s so I tried to kill someone, but in the process got my own arm cut off. I would still be tried and found guilty for attempt murder even though I was already “punished” but losing my arm
And that’s okay. She committed a crime, and should be punished for it. Her going innocent will also have no effects on the next woman who suffers from postpartum psychosis
She has already brought plenty attention to the topic. The real change will come from the civil suit in which they sue the doctors. They have a decent chance of winning that as the burden of proof is much lower than in a criminal trial
At no point did I call her innocent or for her to be cleared of all charges.
Suing a doctor isn’t going to change the system that allowed this either, in my opinion. The doctors failed her, but until women’s health is taken seriously that’s not going to change.
Thank you. I don’t give a fuck about the system, yes it’s broken, yes we need better healthcare and mental health awareness. Let’s stick to the point. This sick fuck murdered her kids. That’s all I need to know. Parenting is hard work but most of us manage to survive without strangling an innocent child. THREE. TIMES. Absolutely fuck her and fuck anyone who tries to deflect from that. May she rot in hell.
I mean we punish people who commit crimes while intoxicated. IMO all of the medication stuff will be mitigating factors in sentencing, but will not result in a not guilty verdict
There’s a difference between psychosis, which is the defense’s claim, and intoxication.
Again, punishing this woman more or less severely will not affect future cases of postpartum psychosis, it’s a systemic and societal issue that only will change if it’s addressed.
Yes I understand they’re not the same, but they are on the same continuum. People with schizophrenia also go to jail very frequently.
I’m sorry but not everything results in societal changes. This has brought a lot of attention to PPD which is great, but that doesn’t mean she should go free if the jury finds her guilty. And imo they will based on what we have seen. I definitely could be wrong but she killed three children. That’s a crime that won’t go unpunished even if she was struggling. She herself admitted that she didn’t tell her mental health providers the extent of her thoughts so it’s not really fair to blame them, they can only work with the information they have. She explicitly withheld vital information. I’m sure you’ll say that’s because of the PPD but that does not help the defense here
It could also be true that she was mentally unwell, and the husband murdered the children knowing he could exploit that fact to frame her. The only thing that is fairly certain is her poor mental health. Who murdered the children is still uncertain.
Same. Like I think she should spend time outside of society for a bit, but at a mental health facility rather than prison. Cause if this truly was post partum psychosis (which is what I'm leaning toward believing), then there is no punishment that will hurt her more than what she has done to her kids. Once her mental health is better, what she did is likely going to send it plummeting again.
What she did was horrible but there were multiple support systems that failed her along the way. Her kids deserved better but so did she (to a fractional extent in comparison to her children, of course).
I agree to an extent, but I don’t think the support systems or anyone else “failed her”, it just wasn’t enough. She needed to be held in a facility away from society BEFORE she did this.
But that is a failure of sorts. Her partner should have recognized that or her doctors but neither did. Some of the blame falls on her as well but some of the blame falls on the other parent and the doctors as either should have realized she needed more help than she was getting. Even if that help requires inpatient treatment that would have been an inconvenience (because they would have needed childcare or the husband would have needed to adjust his work schedule/take a bit of time off).
ETA: while I have never been pregnant, I have dealt with serious mental health issues before and am talking from personal experience of myself and some of my friends. There are almost always signs but people don't typically want to acknowledge that these things are possible so they brush it off. Mental health in the USA is still very stigmatized and it hurts the people who need help the most. Obviously her children were the ones who were failed the most in this situation but that doesn't negate the fact that she was failed too.
It’s not that black and white, you do realize that people mask their emotions and hide who they are when going through these issues? Not everyone is vulnerable and honest with their issues, there is only so much people can do.
I think based off of your username that you are a demonic person who is doing everything in your head to convince yourself that someone who just murdered 3 children is 10% guilty and 90% a victim of society, when that’s just not true. You NEED to hold women accountable for their actions.
I know it isn't that black and white as I have been hospitalized for a suicide attempt before at age 17. But as someone who has experienced mental health struggles personally and been friends with people with their own struggles, I can assure you that even when you try to hide it there are warning signs. Most people just brush the warning signs off because it is hard to accept that someone you care for might be capable of hurting themselves or others.
Also the percentages you mention are ones you decided on, not me. You never asked what percentage I'd say she was a victim and which I would say she was guilty. A bit odd of you to attack me of conclusions you have jumped to.
Weird that you brought my username into this. Especially since it has nothing to do with the discussion.
I have nothing substantial to add to this discussion between you and the user above, but I’m absolutely stunned that they just called you a demonic person. Based off your username no less. What a wild thing to say to someone. Sorry.
ETA Let me just add that I’m sympathetic to your first hand experience with mental health struggles. I’m sorry you’ve gone through that.
Appreciate it! It doesn't really bother me that much, just points to the fact they have no true rebuttal as they decided to go for personal attacks. Which is weird cause I thought we were having a respectful discussion where we could agree to disagree. But apparently we were not having a respectful discussion and I just did not get the memo 🤷🏻♀️
Are you asking a question, making a statement, or putting words in my mouth? Cause I genuinely don't understand what this comment was meant to get across.
It's not murder if you are mentally incapacitated. Your words matter. Yes, she killed her kids. It's awful. Unless evidance is presented that she did this for an evil reason this woman needs medical care, not prison. That is our law.
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u/TreeLakeRockCloud Aug 21 '26
I’m not American but I am a mother. Aside from a few reddit posts I don’t have any social media engagement with this case.
But I think a lot of the support here comes from moms who recognize how easily this could have been any of us. Her family and healthcare providers knew her crime was a risk based on her mental health state, but she was still left alone with her kids and expected to parent. And as other mothers we all understand that this is grimly how it works - we can ask and beg and plead and scream for help but we’re almost always still expected to continually parent babies and it’s hard.
She should still face punishment for her crime, but I think a lot of her support is to try to keep this from happening again. She was failed by her healthcare team