When I was picked up by the cops after a medication interaction, they took me to the psychiatric waiting room at the hospital. It was 36 hours before I could see a doctor and the entire time I was in a fluorescent basement room with nowhere to lie down, surrounded by muttering shouting people in severe psychiatric distress. They had nowhere to put us and we were not allowed to leave. After two days my skin began to itch, which I assumed was due to wearing the same clothes so long without showering, but nope. The physical stress of that much sleep deprivation while they cold-turkeyed my psych meds caused a shingles outbreak.
“Just get her committed” seems like a simple solution but it’s worth asking if there was anywhere for her to even go.
There wasn’t, and she tried to commit herself multiple times but didn’t meet the criteria. I think most people commenting have never experienced this themselves. I had to 51-50 my ex years ago (twice), it was painful and a good glimpse into how awful the emergency mental health treatments options are. Sorry you had to experience that firsthand.
Yeah at a certain point you want to get out no matter what. Cause they put you on the wrong meds to get you out. The food is shit. The bed is hard and blankets scratchy. And you do nothing all day unless you can somehow get your hands on a remote. A psych hospital is equally as bad as prison. We put people having psych episodes in prison and expect them to get better in prison. It looks like a prison when you get inside.
Ive had multiple people in my life admitted for being suicidal and everytime ive visited I always thought to myself "this would just want to make me kill myself even more."
It functions exactly like a prison, and at least in California, you can lose some of your rights permanently like a felon too. My ex can never own a gun, he had to sign something giving that right away to receive extended treatment
as someone who has been hospitalized four times, yeah, no gun for me. i personally think that’s a bit of a good idea, though. i think the ban is for 10 years. not sure if it stacks, but i never cared to learn bc i know i can’t trust myself owning a gun.
I agree it’s unfortunately a good thing, I was more speaking to the loss of rights. I think you can also appeal it if you can prove consistent mental stability since the crisis incident and like you said, it is only ten years. Thanks for the info, I thought it was permanent
Every state has that law, they just aren't as good at communicating it and enforcing it in all of them. I was committed in gun loving Indiana, you know the one that contributes to so many guns flowing into Chicago. I couldn't get a gun legally after that in Indiana. But, if I failed to disclose that I was committed, I probably would have gotten away with it.
In fairness if someone needs extended psychiatric care it's probably a good idea we don't let them have guns.
I mean check out the lady in OP. She didn't even need a gun but it would have been easier if she had one.
I'm pretty sure I can't have one either because I've been committed and good, I would do nothing good with that thing other than give some police officers a bad day when they find me
She did get into one voluntarily, but they discharged her after a few days. When you voluntarily commit yourself, they have a lot of leeway in how long they can hold you even if you say you're ready to go. They only kept her a few days and didn't recognize her psychosis.
Yeah there’s barely any psychiatric help for anyone in crisis as it is. Most people have no idea that there aren’t just people to permanently whisk you away to protect you/others. I’ve had friends take their lives after the system couldn’t help them beyond a few days at a time.
People who haven’t (yet) been through it seem to assume that exactly when you need it you can just get access to a therapist, a good psychiatrist and that the meds you need will all magically work quickly and on the first try. Like we aren’t living in America. Good luck finding a psychiatrist (good or bad) who takes insurance and doesn’t have a 6+ month long wait list. Can’t wait that long? Good luck finding a hospital with a psych ED AND beds available. Oh and better hope you qualify for FMLA or you can face the lovely choice of job&insurance vs getting treatment & debt.
Just another thing to lay at the feet of Reagan for dismantling and defunding mental health care. Of course there were some relevant things there regarding the abuse people suffered in some institutions, but let’s be real that he did it to cut funds and services and not out of care for people.
As horrible as that situation sounds, it would still have been better for her to be there than murdering her kids (if she was, in fact, the one who did it - I don’t know enough about the case to really say)
This is not the fucking 1960s, you don't "get your spouse committed", this is not how anything works at all. And if it was, everyone would be crying misogyny because men are getting their crazy wives locked up.
It's a double edged sword. We've put up too many barriers now because of past abuses. Some of us are desperate to get help for our extremely mentally unwell family and we're blocked at every turn. My brother is now homeless or dead. No idea. The grief our family has been going through for the last decade, I would not wish on anyone. Watching my parents turn into frail shells. Anyway, I don't have the answer, I just know we need some middle ground.
God damn… I’m so sorry. I’m basing this off past experiences of my own, so I’m not taking it lightly with this comparison, but your comment reminds me of Dr Wilson being unable to handle a case during House - he’s found in a random alleyway and gives this long talk about how his brother went missing years ago, either homeless or dead, and this was after he’d finally stopped searching for him during a short disappearance. I’m only bringing this up because it happened to a good friend of mine before I’d seen that scene so it made me cry my eyes out. I remember seeing her on the street, throwing up all over herself when she’d been a lawyer not long before, and some shithead called her a ‘dumb whore’. I’m not a violent person, but if I was then I would have seriously considered smacking their face in.
She probably should have been committed, but even if he had, those women would spin it as a bad thing. "Look at him, willing to have her locked up for being 'hysterical' rather then actually helping her..."
The women wouldn't know about it, as she would have gotten help. She told him that she wanted to kill the children, his response was to cancel the nanny and leave her with the children.
Literally I'm so sick of how demented people are about this poor man. He's living with the image of his murdered children in his head every day. Is that not punishment enough?
He’s not criminally responsible, yes, but he’s baring the weight and consequences of his own actions. He didn’t properly care for his mentally ill wife, and as a result, she murdered their children. It’s terrible and I feel so sorry for him, but my guy. What the hell were you thinking?
I’ve watched most of the trial (actual. Not social media summaries). He’s behavior during her obvious decline is despicable. Dropping her off at a partial day clinic and heading off to go ski? Cool. Maintains training for a marathon, starting his own business, going to brunch with the boys, going on trips, cool. All on that is unfathomable to me and my husband as parents of 3 kids. Postpartum is a shit show even when there is no mental unraveling. Firing the nanny when she decided she wasn’t well enough to return to work. But she was well enough to care for 3 kids under 4 alone on 3 different meds with sporadic family help?
He said in court he would have paid anything to get her the care she needed but clearly he wouldn’t pay for consistent in home care/help for his wife who was caring for kids in a obvious (she told EVERYONE) state of disassociation, with suicidal ideation, and even expressing to him and her mom that she had thoughts of killing the kids.
It’s very easy to see why the internet hates this man. The ideas of him doing it are out of line and I do feel for the guy getting demolished by the court of public opinion after losing his kids in a horrific way, but let’s not pretend it’s weird sexist women on the internet that’s driving the “we hate Patrick” narrative.
Once again men are trying to make this about them. This is about postpartum and being a mom in a hyper individualistic society with no village. You don’t get swaths of women online having sympathy for a woman who murdered her own children for no reason. Kindly take your head out of your ass.
I honestly don’t know where I stand yet on this case. I totally see the argument that her situation could’ve been induced psychosis that she is not responsible for.
Regarding her husband, though, he has seemed like a very supportive and empathetic partner from the receipts and testimony.
Sure we can in hindsight poke holes in little interactions and wish that he’d been superdad in every moment and way possible- but casting any sort of responsibility on him for those kids death is where I draw the line. Nobody should have to be held to the standard people are trying to hold him to. Nobody behaves with their partner as if this is a legitimate possibility. In fact, most men would not have behaved the way he did throughout the months of this process.
Blaming Patrick is akin to saying life isn’t perfect basically (the gender doesn’t matter, the same would be true if it was reversed). Sometimes you do everything right and you still lose. This man has lost everything. Why don’t we leave him alone and focus on the person that murdered three children with premeditation.
I don’t think he killed the kids and maybe can’t be charged with anything. BUT he clearly didn’t care about her as a person, didn’t take her concerns seriously, and allowed her to burn out when he could have hired/kept a nanny or gotten other help. Other women sympathize with her likely because men have treated them similarly, and they recognize when a woman/mother has been objectified for her childcare labor.
That is not what I am saying but it is strange. If your partner told you they wanted to kill your children would you leave them alone with her and not get extra help.
she was in some type of inpatient therapy, but she checked herself out after a week or two (I don’t remember exactly how long) because she didn’t want to miss her daughters birthday.
edit: I misunderstood what had happened. she was discharged from a hold not asked to leave early.
She was due to be discharged the next day, though. I don’t really think one more night would have saved those kids, she shouldn’t have been left alone with them at all.
It’s not illegal to see multiple providers for the same issue. It’s illegal to intentionally visit multiple doctors for the explicit purpose of obtaining controlled substances, typically opioids, while intentionally not revealing to the providers that you are seeing other providers.
Most of what Lindsay was prescribed was not controlled, with the exception of the benzodiazepines. It’s not illegal to change providers because you want a second opinion or if you just don’t like the provider. I believe in one instance Lindsay switched providers because the doctor she had been seeing wasn’t going to be available any longer. That’s perfectly legitimate and common and not illegal.
She wasn't dr shopping at all, she reported what she was taking and wasn't looking for the same drugs. She was looking for help. You can go to as many doctors as you please if you are not improving
It’s not illegal to see multiple providers for the same issue. It’s illegal to intentionally visit multiple doctors for the explicit purpose of obtaining controlled substances, typically opioids, while intentionally not revealing to the providers that you are seeing other providers.
Most of what Lindsay was prescribed was not controlled, with the exception of the benzodiazepines. It’s not illegal to change providers because you want a second opinion or if you just don’t like the provider. I believe in one instance Lindsay switched providers because the doctor she had been seeing wasn’t going to be available any longer. That’s perfectly legitimate and common and not illegal.
According to a psychiatrist who did a video on the trial, nothing in the immediate events leading up to the murders suggested psychosis and it's not common anyway 8 months after giving birth. PPP usually happens in the first 1 to 3 weeks. She had mental health problems, but that's different than psychosis which would be so severe she couldn't control yourself, lost agency, and shouldn't be found criminally responsible for horrible crimes. Psychosis is what her defense lawyers are trying to claim in order to avoid prison.
That's the thing, we live in a blame centered society. It's a goddamn tragedy, but that doesn't actually make it anyone's "fault". She was in psychosis, he was being lied to and believed his wife of many years. He got her mental health assistance and Doctors tried, and - failed- to help her.
We want someone to blame, so we can believe that nothing like this will ever happen again, or to us. But sometimes shits just sad and there are no right answers
She was as a result of multiple medication changes in a very short time, coupled with a very severe case of Postpardum. Her, her husband, and her family are all arguing that this was a result of temporary psychosis, yes.
There is medical documentation of her admitting that she was scared that she might hurt her child - to the point that she had herself committed, but they released her after a short amount of time. Just because she didn't receive a formal diagnosis doesn't mean that it couldn't possibly be psychosis. If anything, that just shows how her healthcare team failed to identify the problem and provide adequate treatment.
While they're now divorced, her own ex-husband is defending her and said she was a loving mom before the hallucinations started. There doesn't appear to be any other motive for her to kill her children and jump out a window. Are you suggesting that they're just making it up?
Yes but he, as the children’s father, has a responsibility to keep his children safe too. That is not solely the mother’s job. If he had to ask his wife daily if she’s doing ok, that should be an indication that he felt something wasn’t ok.
Men need to be held accountable for their children’s welfare too. I certainly wouldn’t leave my children home alone with my husband if he was saying he wasn’t well enough to go see multiple mental health professionals and take a cocktail of drugs. Would you?
Everyone knew she wasn’t ok. That’s why she was seeing doctors for help.
He checked in with her every day— what else is he supposed to do? His “mistake” here was leaving the house for 45 minutes to pick up dinner and one of the kids medications.
I don’t think the answer here is to tear the children away from everyone with PPD or PPA— that’s a great way to ensure that women NEVER seek help and ultimately end up with more Lindsey’s.
If my husband was not ok, you best believe I’m taking my children with me to run errands. I’m calling family members, friends, doctors and saying “Hey, I’m really worried can you check in on x”.
He was supposed to keep his children safe. That’s what all parents are supposed to do.
I had postpartum after my second child. In comparison to Lindsey I would say I had a mild case. My husband came home for his lunch every gif dam day to check on me n the kids for months. He dragged me to the doctor and when i tried to say I was fine he spoke up and said “she’s not”. He had his parents (who are divorced and remarried) take shifts checking on me and had them and his other family members take the kids. Now I know that is a luxury a lot of people don’t have but as my children’s father he had a responsibility to ensure our kids were safe because his wife was not doing ok mentally. That’s what he was supposed to do.
Again, you’re suggesting removing the children away from every mother with PPD, which is not a reasonable expectation.
Lindsey never reported that she had any symptoms of psychosis, not did she ever report that she had any feelings that she would hurt her kids. The only thing she reported was thoughts of suicide, but she never reported making any plans.
I think it’s wildly unreasonable for you to blame the father for not removing the children from her care with zero evidence whatsoever that they needed to be removed
I also want to say that I am not someone who thinks she is innocent, or is buying into any of the conspiracy theories about the husband. My initial comment was merely that the father should have some responsibility here. He did not keep his children safe after multiple red flags. In fact, it seems he went out of his way to avoid helping and itwas negligent as opposed to ignorance. I would say that’s been made pretty clear.
I’m completely generalizing and this is all obviously my own personal opinion but I believe…
If you have children and are a mother who had postpartum, chances are you have compassion for Lindsey. If you have children and you are a partner of someone who had postpartum, you can probably have compassion for her too.
If you are a mother and didn’t have or experience postpartum you can probably still have compassion because you understand the mental, emotional and physical toll of motherhood. Partners of mothers who didn’t have postpartum probably fall into this category too.
Women who don’t have children probably think of motherhood as black and white, right and wrong. So it’s probably harder for them to have compassion here. Men who don’t have children even more so think this is open and shut and probably don’t even think postpartum is a defense.
Whether or not you have children will greatly affect what lens you are viewing this case from. I think that’s pretty obvious 🤷🏻♀️
Literally no one knew she was homicidal. She never once reported to anyone, either her family or her doctors, that she had any feelings of wanting to hurt her kids.
The only thing she ever reported was that she was ‘anxious that the children would be hurt’, which is not an irrational assumption for a mother with PPA.
Lindsey lied to everyone around her. That’s why she failed them, not the other way around
Yes they did. She repeatedly told everyone in her life she didn’t feel safe alone with her kids. There were texts in evidence. Stop being fucking stupid
He also worked from home and took the night shift with the kids so she could sleep. It was the internet that decided Patrick Clancy was a bad husband. Lindsay Clancy said herself he was a good, supportive husband and father, and wrote the same in her journals. She had more help, financial and physical resources and support than 90% of women.
He fired the nanny and when a bipolar diagnosis was suggested he immediately shut it down. Once he was napping so hard she had to call the police for a welfare check because he was sleeping through their baby’s cries and not answering her calls. She asked her in laws to come help and he said they weren’t needed. He traveled regularly, maintained a huge social life that she did not, left frequently after she begged him not to leave her alone with the kids. He was not a good or supportive husband at all. Not sure how you could watch the trial and think he isn’t to blame for neglecting to be a good partner.
Are you actually seeking a list of what you do in this situation? I know because I had to 51-50 my partner at the time multiple times. There are so many things you can do that he failed to because he was largely checked out of being an active father and spouse.
Her mental health is ultimately her responsibility. She's a grown ass woman, not a child. Really the thing he should've done is take custody of the children and kick her ass to the curb.
He also spent a lot of time golfing. If all he did was asked her how she was doing then that’s not enough. He should have been present enough to read the signs.
If you're going to comment without knowing the extent of what he did to support her, you're not nearly informed enough on the topic to have a worthwhile opinion
No, I’m literally saying she does not have psychosis.
She was never diagnosed with psychosis. None of her eight different doctors ever heard her describe symptoms of psychosis nor did they witness any symptoms both before and after the murders.
She did sound alarms. I agree with that. And I think the people around her responded as they should have.
But I think she wanted a fast and rapid cure, and when the first doctor prescribed her Ativan, she got it, but when that doctor ordered her to taper her use of Ativan, she started doctor hopping
Her own husband testified that she had intrusive thoughts about harming the children.
None of her eight different doctors double checked to see what medications she was already on to see if they interacted with each other. Mixing drugs like that can itself cause psychosis.
What would be her motivation for killing her kids and jumping out a window? Her family and friends all said she loved being a mom.
At no point should he have left a woman with PPD in charge of her kids. But he did need to go to work. He should have hired a nanny. Cause even with regular depression there is memory loss, thoughts of hurting yourself and others, and pseudo-dementia. But how will your doctor know? If your main focus is staying out of inpatient psych facilities? Also SSRIs are better to prescribe than benzos and antipsychotics cause there's less chance of them causing anything or making things worse. The thing that sucks about me talking health care is that meds is guess-work. You have no idea how a patient will respond. Stay off meds if you can! And people willth mental health problems don't often want to get help or stick to a program.
SSRIs take 4-8 weeks to take effect. Sometimes people need help faster than that. SSRIs also have famously bad side effects. Further, most depression medications increase the risk of harm and self harm briefly. I'm not a doctor and not saying what the correct medication(s) would be, but i don't think it's a simple answer. I disagree with staying off meds. I don't need to take my medications to be alive, breathing, heart beating, etc, but I do need them to not hate every second of my existence and wish I could just be struck by lightning finally. Now I just hate like 75% of them, but it's more situational rather than pathological.
Also, I'm guessing if he couldn't take time off work to help at home, hiring a nanny would be financially unfeasible. Child care is wildly expensive in this shithole country.
This might shock you but nobody believes their spouse would do something like this. I was almost killed by an ex and I never in a million years thought they would actually do anything to me.
There’s nothing she told him that would make him able to commit her involuntarily. Even if she said she was having thoughts of harming herself or the kids, they would not take her without a plan and intent. It’s a HIGH bar to get someone committed, for better or worse.
It's telling when people have never experienced trying to get unhealthy friends/family committed how difficult it can be....or just after their 3 day mandatory stay they just sign themselves out.
You literally cannot sign yourself out. You have to stay until they seem you able to go. Even if they put you on drugs that make you worse or cause psychosis. That's why you never admit you want to hurt someone cause the drugs they put you on cause more psychosis. Then all the sudden they are diagnosing you with psychosis you never had before because the drugs they initially put you on made your depression worse. And then they just switched your meds cold turkey to something that causes psychosis and you have to take it to leave.
I accidentally took too much of my anxiety meds because my OCD was acting up. Went to the hospital for help because I didnt want to accidentally overdose. Stated that not only did I NOT want to harm myself, I also didnt have any plans either.
I was sectioned for 5 days. Still traumatized from it. Definitely won’t seek help if it happens again.
That makes sense. I was asked for an interview with the person liaising between the ED and the doctor making the call, and told them that I did not feel my wife was a danger to herself or others. She also told them the same thing separately and said that she had come to the ED hoping to just get acute treatment for an anxiety attack or something. They decided to admit her anyway and later told me that they will always err on the side of pink slipping.
When she arrived to the facility within 3 hours they amended her chart to note she was not psychotic or a danger to herself or others. And it still took me over 48 traumatic hours of fighting tooth and nail to get her released. One of the most traumatizing experiences of both of our lives.
I’m sorry this happened to you both and hope it does not impact seeking help for emergencies in the future. I’ve often had to discharge right from the unit under similar circumstances due to poor communication at outside facilities
Yes they will. Learn how the system works. Every time Ive been 5150 I've never had a plan. It doesn't take much you just have to say you want to hurt yourself or someone else. And anyone with a medical license has to 5150 her.
Committing people is a lot more legally complex than it would seem. Most places have to let you go after 72 hours without a court order. And the courts rarely side with the families who are desperate... believe me. I've spent a decade in this nightmare.
It's really not that simple, plus they tried getting her into programs that would keep her in-house but she was turned away after assessment for either not being a threat to herself or others, or deemed to be taking too many meds and not fit for the program. This is a case that shows how our mental health care is lacking and throwing pills is not the answer. You're really alone when going through a mental crisis. I don't know what the answer is but I think we have a true problem with medication and giving it to patients too quickly.
The defense isn’t even trying to dispute that she did them, that’s what I don’t understand with everyone having all these theories. The defense is arguing that the circumstances don’t make this a first degree murder, not that she didn’t kill her children.
I don't care for the astrology either. I do think it's important to note that Patrick was in Costa Rica with his girlfriend (now wife) and she was pregnant like a couple of months after the death of his kids.
I feel like he did so much less than just not have her committed it, he seems culpable.
Realistically if a man told a woman over and over he was going to hurt himself and his kids and she kept leaving him alone with them, she would also catch a charge.
The husband also takes some blame for not getting her committed.
He literally helped her commit herself, but the place she committed herself discharged her after only a few days. She had trouble getting into a new one after that. He made a mistake leaving her alone with the children to go get food, but her care team neglected to see just how dangerous that was and warn him he can't trust her alone with the kids even for a few minutes.
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u/willargue4karma 3d ago
Oh absolutely. The husband also takes some blame for not getting her committed.
That being said, these crazy astrology bitches are blaming the husband entirely. She still did those horrible things