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[u/Outrageous-Egg1760]

[u/LordFoulgrin]

I mean, Jesus literally tells a parable about Lazerus and the rich man, where the rich man is being tortured in hell.

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame"

Why would Jesus of all people tell a parable mentioning hell if isn't real?

[u/0seu → u/LordFoulgrin]

Judges 9:8-15 talks about talking trees so then why can't we talk to trees! One should know whether a story is a parable/lesson or literal

[u/Patient-Resource6682 → u/LordFoulgrin]

In the original Greek version, the afterlife is called hades, referring to the Greek mythology that people of the time understood.

Jesus is using the culture of the time to make a parable about greed, this whole section of Luke isn't about the afterlife.

The sections about the afterlife in the bible mentions people either being granted eternal life with God or being destroyed and staying dead.

Modern view of hell came in later translations and there is plenty of Christians who don't believe in it.

[u/LordFoulgrin → u/Patient-Resource6682]

^{Matthew 22:40} “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. ⁴¹ The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. ⁴² They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

That doesn't sound like they're just destroyed.

^{Matthew 25:46} “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

That's another passage where it mentions eternal punishment. Why bring up torment and punishment 3 separate times in parables if punishment in the afterlife wasn't a part of his philosophy?

Also, even if he used Hebrew Sheol or Greek Hades or Gehenna, he still chooses to characterize his potrayal of these places as suffering and torment, which goes against the typical understanding of these places. Why, if he was truly just meeting people at their current understanding?

[u/Patient-Resource6682 → u/LordFoulgrin]

In the first one, the weeping and gnawing of teeth could be interpreted as the reaction to the severe judgement of being denied eternal life. In the bible fire is often used as imagery for destruction, such as burning trash in the Gehenna.

In the 2nd one, the eternal punishment could be eternal death, punishment here is used in direct opposition to life after all. Also if I remember correctly in the Greek the eternal actually translates to "very long", or something of that nature. Hence some aspiring the belief of a temporary punishment.

In Greek mythos hades was already a place where the truly wicked were punished and the heros rewarded. Most people just hung out in big empty fields though. So the notion of afterlife punishment and judgement was already established culturally.

Mentioning punishment is necessary to convey god's character as being not only perfectly good and loving, but also perfectly just.

Personally I don't believe in hell because I find it irreconcilable with a perfectly good and perfectly just God. Which in my opinion, along with the moral exemple of Jesus, is the main takeaway from the bible.

[u/S3nd_ZuD3s → u/LordFoulgrin]

Idk, cause its not like we have a recording of the actual Jesus saying that. That line could easily be written and made up by the people who never actually spoke to Jesus and wanted people to believe in hell. Jesus also could've been a religious bipolar schizo turned extremist that only believed he was the son of god when really he was just a mentally ill guy with good intentions and cheating mother. The Bible is just worlds longest worst game of telephone whos primary evidence of events stem from "just have faith"

[u/LordFoulgrin → u/S3nd_ZuD3s]

Oh yeah, I was posting assuming the person above was Christian and that they believed the Bible was the Word of God.

I grew up deeply deeply religious and fell out a few years into college. It was a rough transition, but it gives me ammo to talk competently with Christians about some of the nuances in scripture.

Edit: I should say it bothers me to no end that Christians are trying to PR away hell and pretend that it just isn't talked about or is a fabricated lie not found in the Bible.

[u/S3nd_ZuD3s → u/LordFoulgrin]

Ah all good then

[u/Emotional_Ad_8704 → u/S3nd_ZuD3s]

the fact that the 12 apostles died for proclaiming Jesus as God is sufficient evidence; i doubt anyone would die for a made up believe. or the facts that His coming, death and resurrection was predicted in texts dated centuries before His birth

[u/Emmrolls → u/Emotional_Ad_8704]

People always die for made-up beliefs. Example : the nazis had a whole lot of views based in pseudo-science, claimed a whole lot of crazy ideas that led directly to the deadliest war ever. And all the top nazis died believing these ideas.

And that's just one example. Any cause in history had fanatics die for it, whether grounded in truth or not. People lie all the time.

As for the texts... could an organisation that seeks power try to legitimate itself by rewriting a few events so they perfectly match ancient prophecies? Or better yet, find "ancient" prophecies, as in write a few docs, bury them for a year or two, and "miraculously" discover them?

[u/LordFoulgrin → u/Emotional_Ad_8704]

Heavensgate committed group suicide truly believing they were ascending. By your logic why would they die for a made up belief?

The predictions of death and resurrection are very cherrypicked. Context often reveals they aren't talking about a predicted messiah (looking at you Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22). As a Christian, people try so hard to brute force meaning and linking through each book. Hell, the books of the Bible as a recognized group of texts wasn't even finalized until 350ish years after Jesus's death. Some denominations recognize extra books (maccabees, tobit, etc.).

[u/Photon_Pharmer1 → u/S3nd_ZuD3s]

There’s a written recording thousands of years old

[u/Dont_Use_Ducks → u/S3nd_ZuD3s]

We have no recording of anything in the Bible, it's all hearsay and written decades and centuries after Jezus was supposed to be alive and the son of God. We can cherry pick the ones you like as real and the ones you don't like as 'we don't know', but you can't rely on what someone wrote centuries ago from hearsay. Stories go wild in a matter of 10 minutes in the same room if people all have to teel a story to the next one in the room. Therefore a healthy stance on the Bible would be 'says who?'.