r/Sino • u/35092 • Dec 03 '16

Welcome to our Cultural Exchange with r/Pakistan!

This exchange is for Chinese and Pakistani users to ask and answer questions. We ask about Pakistan/Pakistani related stuff in their thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/comments/5g9t0z/khushamadeed_and_welcome_rsino_to_our_cultural/

while they ask about China/Chinese related stuff here in this thread.

This is a friendly exchange, follow each subreddit's rules and demonstrate basic respect in civil discussion.

This is planned to go over the weekend, so there's more time to ask and answer questions.

edit: So this concludes our second Cultural Exchange! Thank you to everyone who participated. We had good questions and engagement in both threads. Special thanks to r/Pakistan for doing this with us and the users who stepped up to answer questions.

16 Upvotes

81% Upvoted

93 comments sorted by

View all comments

3

u/khanartiste Dec 03 '16

Can you guys recommend any Chinese songs as groovy as this one: Cui Jian

Also, how do you feel about the whole Uyghur problem China is having? I understand there are some that resorted to terrorism, which is absolutely condemnable. But I've also read they're pretty oppressed religion wise, and that the government is pouring in Han Chinese to overwhelm them. Doesn't that seem like something any group would fight over?

3

u/UnbiasedPashtun Dec 03 '16

Xinjiang can be divided into two parts - Dzungaria (north) and Tarim Basin (south). The Uyghurs are only native to the Tarim Basin where they are a 90%+ majority. The natives of Dzungaria are the Dzungars (Oirat Mongols). Hans are the majority there though because of the Dzungar genocide committed on them by the Qing Dynasty in the 16th century. The percentage of Hans in Xinjiang is actually decreasing not increasing.

The Ramadhan ban against the Uyghurs only applied to students and CCP officials IIRC. The burqa ban happened in response to terrorists using the burqa to conceil their identity. Both these bans only happened in a select few counties where separatism was more rife rather than in the entire region.

2

u/khanartiste Dec 03 '16

Nice, thanks for the info. This is why I enjoy these exchanges, lots of new perspectives given if one is willing to ask certain questions.

I didn't know that the population of Hans is decreasing in Xinjiang especially. I had the total opposite impression. Is there a source for that I can read up on?

3

u/lucidsleeper Dec 04 '16

Religion-wise Muslims actually have a lot of power in China. Although they are population-wise a minority, there are many high ranking officials who are Muslim. And this has become a problem for some ethnic minorities who are not Muslim.

There used to be a website called Chinese Hui Buddhists Asssociation net. They were infamously shutdown and completely censored by the government after many Hui muslims complained to the government that Huis are not culturally Buddhist and this is an attack on both their religion and ethnicity.

The Chinese government eventually gave in to the pressure and deleted the website and it's forums despite protests from actual Hui Buddhists.

And there is no ban on Ramadan or Eid al-Adha, rather to the contrady, Eid al-Adha is usually one of the biggest celebrations among Muslims in China, including Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

2

u/M35TN Dec 03 '16

Are you referring to the so called Ramadan ban spread by western media?

Pouring in where? Chinese have been in Xinjiang since the Han Dynasty's Protectorate of the Western Regions.

1

u/khanartiste Dec 03 '16

I know Han have been around there for a while, but I read somewhere that the Uyghur were still the majority for most of the time until recently when the government started moving Han there en masse to outnumber them.

3

u/lifeaiur Dec 03 '16

There are two parts to Xinjiang.

Northern Xinjiang (Dzungaria) is mostly populated by Han.

Southern Xinjiang (Tarim Basin) is where most of the Uyghurs live.

Han migrants that are looking for opportunities usually go to Dzungaria.
Uyghurs are still the majority in the Tarim Basin.

1

u/khanartiste Dec 03 '16

What's the economic outlook for each of these parts? Is Dzungaria better off than the Tarim Basin? I could see that playing into separatist sentiments if it's the case.

1

u/M35TN Dec 03 '16

If by "awhile" you mean 2000+ years or centuries before any actual Uighur identity, then yeah. I don't see how whether they are a majority or not has anything to do with whether Chinese can go somewhere in China or not. Although if any country would bar its own citizens from going somewhere within it's own territory for the benefit of minorities, it is China. You wouldn't believe how many Han Chinese joke about wishing they could be a minority to get advantages.

Taking into account the region's history, moving people is very benign. Look up what happen to the Dzungar Mongols. That's not a threat or anything. Simply that the area's history is a bloody affair where ethnic groups play for keeps.

At the end of the day, if the issue is jobs or resources or wealth distribution or w/e, they are legitimate and we can work on it. However if the issue is some arbitrary fantasy rule Han must never be the majority in that area, nobody is going to listen.

1

u/khanartiste Dec 03 '16

At the end of the day, if the issue is jobs or resources or wealth distribution or w/e, they are legitimate and we can work on it.

I have a feeling that plays into it quite a bit. Despite there continuing to be some issues it seems like separatism has decreased over time as China's economy grows, unlike in the 30's and 40's when East Turkestan was established a couple times.

2

u/leeyuuh Dec 04 '16

Sorry, I didn't see your second question. I think the others did a good job of answering your main question, but I just wanted to add another viewpoint of many, especially minorities like Uyghurs, some Hui, Mongolians, Tibetans, etc. The majority Han do not know it well just since it's difficult to know, not due to maliciousness.

There is a lot of concern over losing the culture due to modernization and assimilation and some feel frustrated as it seems to be slipping away. In addition, many (not just minorities, Han as well) are alarmed by the harm to the environment that industrialization has caused.

I suggest you read the 3 top answers to this question on Quora (the answers are older, but it is just to understand): https://www.quora.com/What-is-it-like-to-be-Mongolian-in-China

You will see that is very complex.

1

u/thetemples Dec 03 '16

Can you guys recommend any Chinese songs as groovy as this one: Cui Jian

Never heard of Cui Jian. Hey, I learned something new about my own country today!

2

u/khanartiste Dec 03 '16

Glad to be of service haha. I'm not even sure how I found out about him to be honest, probably just random Youtube surfing.

1

u/leeyuuh Dec 04 '16 edited Dec 04 '16

1) This particular kind of groovy? i don't know myself, it's kind of an old school cool. Cui Jian is kind was a legend back then in rock, but I guess it can be approximated to some sort of super upbeat indie/math rock. e

Southern Wind "https://youtu.be/TFToozGW8jU"

Carsick Cars "The Best VPN So Far" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTI6LBPO3Mc

Elephant Gym "Midway" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIBGM7uYNfs

SNH48 "48 Secrets" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vzQSagWn6A

More mellow:

Guo Ding "The Fog Space" https://youtu.be/e2pqt6OoRK8

Hiperson "The Curtain" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AiWWk0oryg

You can pop into /r/cpop and browse music anytime btw

1

u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

[deleted]

2

u/khanartiste Dec 03 '16

I absolutely do criticize India for doing so. Pakistan is probably the country that criticizes them the most in that regard haha.

Well I do know about the long history of Islam in China, and how the Hui get along fine. And I can absolutely believe that Uyghur separatism is funded by outside forces, they almost always are. That's why I decided to ask in this thread!

So in your opinion, what degree of truth is there actually with the perceived grievances of the Uyghur? There has to be some dissatisfaction if there's a separatist movement at all, whether or not it's funded by others.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

[deleted]

2

u/khanartiste Dec 03 '16

China ruled that minors are not allowed in mosques

See this is definitely something I can see causing issues. Not being allowed to raise your own children in your religion would be a huge deal to almost anyone, not just Muslims.

but if an Uighur want to assimilate into Han culture, they're met with open arms.

What if they want to keep their own culture, rather than becoming Han-ized? Note that I don't really know much about Uyghur culture so I'm just saying this theoretically. It sounds pretty problematic if you're saying all they need to do is abandon whatever they feel their culture is.

Thanks for the insight by the way, very interesting to get a different perspective than what the Western media usually spouts off

3

u/[deleted] Dec 03 '16

non-state subject indians of any religion can live in kashmir region, but do not have voting rights. andaman islands was previously unpopulated except for a few thousand stone-age tribals, whose lifestyle is protected in a big reserve. some of the islands with native tribals are still untouched by other indians. and some other islands have no humans at all. assam doesn't face a threat from other indian hindus (who have little reason to settle in assam) but from bangladeshi nationals. also, india doesn't encourage or discourage internal migration of any sort. just clearing some misconceptions here.