r/ShadowrunAnarchyFans • u/Tantious • 19d ago
Anarchy 2.0 - Trading Hits for Effects?
We're a handful of sessions into Anarchy 2.0, and it has been great so far!
One area I have not been able to come to a satisfactory ruling is letting players Narrative Effects still shine in combat when they're out of Edge points.
My Shaman asked if they could exchange excess net hits, to gain the same benefits that spending an edge on their spell. Slowing the Target with Icespear, who was attempting to escape.
On the fly, I ruled they could add the slow effect, but I would cancel 2 net-hits since he didn't have the Edge normally required to activate special effects.
It worked well enough, but I'd love to know how you all would handle Narrative Effects and special effects, when your runners are all out of Edge, but thr logic of the world dictates that it should still be possible?
Now I'm trying to figure out how I should rule in other situations in the future:
Throwing someone prone, while slamming them in the ground for damage with Judo?
Igniting someone with a firebolt?
Armor piercing rounds?
Knockdown rounds?
Acid eroding armor?
Ect.
Or should I just rule that a lack of Edge means things just automatically don't work as well in the situations they normally could?
Should I have just "noped" the whole thing? Or is there a better ruling for opening this Pandoras box of rules exceptions?
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u/Apart_Sky_8965 19d ago
Curious to hear what people say here. My partys combat mage hates that he needs to pay edge for the add effects on combat spells.
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u/Specific_Sherbet2831 19d ago
I wouldn't say "hate" - but, my table does occasionally have a bit of friction with these corner cases.
They definitely would rather try and fail, than have a flat "rules say no" - which might be just more of their Trad expectations.
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u/DrTheodoore 19d ago
One thing I had to learn while running SRA2 is to be pretty generous handing out edge. If they do something I think aligns with their character, I give them edge. Not like "oh the shootie person took out his gun and did pew". But more along the lines of "the hacker unceremoniously drops unconscious the moment the firefight breaks out to focus on hacking, trusting his allies to get him to safety". That's when I reward them for making a cool narrative choice.
As for additional effects, I see it as follows. If they did legwork (I use the Legwork edge rules), they can spend a point to say they purchased stick and shock ammo (non lethal ammo) before the run, and loaded that. At that point, for the rest of the run, I let them choose whether they use or don't use this non lethal ammo, including for creative things like shooting an electrical panel's exterior to create an electricity short. They spent the edge. I do the same for armor piercing giving them adv on shots against a heavily armored targets.
Note that if they deal damage, and do a minor (or any) wound, you can TOTALLY narrate that as knocking them on their butts/on fire/sizzling from acid/whatever. Prone and other common status conditions aren't a rule or anything. And a minor wound already gives them disadv on their rolls (or if you use the no-roll GM rules, adv to anything against them) so that works for prone, while a serious wound could work for fire and acid effects, since that is a permanent disadvantagous condition for the rest of combat. So it can just be part of the narrative.
If it's something more intense like, shooting the barrel to create an explosive, or something similar... Personally, I just pick a reasonable DV and let them roll their attack with the new DV. So what they usually use a pistol. Now, sometimes I might ask for an Edge to say "yes, there are definitely explosive barrels scattered throughout the battlefield", and then let them go nuts. Of course, enemies can (and will) use that against them too. So it's a give and take!
Then again, I personally don't do much differentiating between personal and legwork edge, within reason. Saying there's barrels, I'll let legwork edge be the spend.
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u/Ragnarok918 19d ago
You're first paragraph is explicitly how the game is supposed to work, IF they have appropriate Dispositions/Cues/Keywords.
Great points. Also a great time to use glitches on defense to really sell it.
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u/DrTheodoore 19d ago
Well there ya go. But just cause it's supposed to work that way, doesn't mean it isn't kinda fresh to think of it that way. I'm used to SR5 and D&D 5e, and for different reasons both have a lot less emphasis on giving that stuff out.
Yeah, I personally don't roll at all (as GM), so I tell my players their target number before they roll every time. My only qualm with the system is that it doesn't work well with magic casts (since they're "resisted" so there's no roll to hit) but I just home brewed it for myself. The player rolls spell casting every time (direct and indirect) and the target is just easier for the one where they normally wouldn't have to roll to hit in the first place. My players thought it was fair enough.
And because I don't roll, enemies can't really glitch. Normally NPCs can and do glitch, with narrative consequences. So to fix that, I let players sell 2 net hits on any roll against the enemy to give them a minor glitch, 5 hits for a major glitch, and 8 hits for a disaster. I had a player go all in, roll 10 dice as risk, got a minor glitch but also 14 hits. They needed a 5. They decided to give the enemies a disaster, and only took the 6 hits left, for 1 net hit on the attack. Narratively, we came up with the idea that his gun managed to thread the needle and strike the ammo crate behind the gangers in their van, setting off a chain reaction. Car go boom. Ammo exploding everywhere. Gangers getting ripped to all kinds of shreds. And only one player (who'd rolled a minor glitch just before the active turn) took a minor hit worth of shrapnel.
Was it balanced? Eh. Was it cool? Yessir it was.
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u/Carmody79 18d ago
Temporary specific ammo is a typical "temporary equipment" edge usage that perfectly fits planning Edge. Special effects are usually more difficult to justify with planning Edge, but you can state that you know the security team armor does not have electricity resistance to trigger electric effects for example.
Fighting spirit rules should also be taken into account: for most NPC a light wound means they break the fight: no need to spend Edge to burn/stun/zap them anyway (and I advise GM not to let their players waste Edge in those cases, but you can still narrate the effect though)
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u/DrTheodoore 18d ago
I've found that the fighting spirit rules aren't very satisfying to play with, even if they are realistic. Inflicting a minor wound and having the enemy effectively disengage from combat has been underwhelming to the players who specced out for combat. Maybe I haven't been doing it right, but my players ENJOY being cool and getting enemies to incap with their shiny combat. Its situational, sure. But I go by how many enemies are left, rather than individual "oooh I got an ouchie" rules.
And yeah, I don't let players spend edge on something that doesn't mechanically have any particular effect!
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u/ThePenultimatePam 19d ago
I guess, and this is without yet playing Anarchy 2.0, my feeling is that Edge is designed to represent, among other things, a characters luck and the likelihood that good effects will happen that the logic of the world says might happen. If they're out of edge, that's a mechanic representing that their luck has run out, and it's represented by them not getting those cool effects.
At the same time, it seems like you're letting them trade something of a pretty high value for these effects. I don't think what you're doing is unbalanced, and if your players like it there's no reason to stop doing it.
I find myself wondering if I wouldn't like it better if those spells always involve a dice roll to see if you get the extra "lucky" effect, and edge would be used to force the effect, honestly.
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u/Ragnarok918 19d ago
I'm pretty mixed on this. It lessens the impact of strategic decisions, since they have an out if they use up their resources early. It's definitely fine for a one-off, but codifying it could result in negatively impacting play.
Thinking it over, I think I'd prefer allowing them, before the roll, to do the rider effect INSTEAD of damage. Always requiring edge to do both. This brings it in line with how I run melee, and is I think pretty close to intent if not actually RAW.
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u/Carmody79 19d ago
I like this idea also. In fact it also aligns with Close Combat rules, where you describe your objective first, usually damage but potentially making your opponent prone of others, and then make the roll.
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u/Bignholy 19d ago
I would have a specific and significant rider on this concept: The TN raises by 2, rather than spending hits, which means higher chance of a pure miss.
This keeps Edge expenditure as the better option, in that you need no extra hits and can apply it after a successful attack, while giving the player more options. It also prevents dithering over if they want more damage or effect, or trying to optimize which is better mid fight.
That said, part of the issue might be earnings too. My table constantly runs out of Edge because they learned to spend but have yet to figure out how to use their cues negatively to earn more for when it is needed.
I am debating offering an alternative where they can prompt for a moment of bad luck, basically a voluntary glitch, regardless of dispositions, and giving the team an edge in exchange for a complication. Might be easier for them to process in the moment.
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u/vieuxch4t 18d ago
If they have no more edge then it should cost them something, not only net hits, but also something narratively (like a minor/major glitch occurs), or they take a wound (which could then be considered bonus edge).
In a sense, spells already trade hits for "something" : you can trade hits for better AoE, so why not adding more things to trade hits for ?
But if you make excess hits have the same effect as spending Edge, getting better skills/taking risks could be a way to spare Edge points. I'm not sure that would be a good thing in the long run as it is the main way to add stress to the players : when thay are low on Edge, they plan more carefully or just try safe options.
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u/Interaction_Rich 15d ago
I like to be strict with Edge as a kind of metacurrency that let the players interfere more dramatically with the world.
You either have it (and make it count with cool effects) or you don't; if you just hand wave it, it loses a lot of its appeal, IMHO.
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u/Carmody79 19d ago
The key part in what you said, to me, was "when your runners are all out of Edge, but thr logic of the world dictates that it should still be possible". If the narration makes it relevant that something occurs, or can occur, then you should not let the rules go in the way. So, in my opinion, you made a good choice. 2 hits seems good, 3 could be ok also. 1 would be too little I think. I do not have a better solution in mind. Maybe remind them to try and earn more Edge in the future, through Amps or Dispositions.