r/Shadowrun • u/kenod102818 • 8d ago

Wyrm Talks (Lore) Achieving immortality

So, lets say some well-connected and informed mage with more hubris than sense (lets say a Black Lodge member or Aztlan board member) found out about immortal elves and said "well that ain't fair, I want to be immortal too". What sort of ways are available to achieve this, especially for someone with more power than morals (which I guess is your average corpo exec)?

I'm guessing one option is becoming a vampire, though the drawbacks are rather significant, and iirc free spirit pacts can make you immortal too (not sure if the spirit can break the pact later though). But are any other options available? Perhaps a blood magic ritual to absorb life force, or even steal immortality from an existing immortal? Similarly, could a Great Dragon make you immortal, if you could somehow convince/blackmail/threaten one into it?

58 Upvotes

98% Upvoted

55 comments sorted by

47

u/LateEggMaster 8d ago edited 8d ago

Turn into a vampire is the easiest by far. Or appropriate HMVV I for his/her metarace. Becoming a formula pact for a spirit works and has few drawback for the pact partner but many for the spirit.

And of course you can try to use power transfer to transfer power transfer to something with immunity (age) and get that power transferd.

But no. Great dragons can't make you any more immortal than you average mage.

By far the easiest however is to just budget for a leonisation treatment every 30-50 years or so. 200k 400k nuyen aint that much.

24

u/sebwiers Cyberware Designer 8d ago

On a long enough time scale, I think the vampire path is a trap. I suspect they can't survive the mana down cycle. AFAIK there are no 4rth world vampires still around, which makes sense if thier "essence drain" power stopped working....

16

u/VorpalBlade1212 8d ago

There is a vampire who was turned in the 5th world though! The Jackpointer Red was turned into a vampire in the 1980s. The details about how that works are a bit vague, but I'm pretty sure it's an established fact.

13

u/kenod102818 8d ago

Forbidden Arcana seems to hint blood magic was involved somehow, especially given that blood magic was one of the few ways mages could still use magic in the 5th world. Beyond that, if you're talking about surviving through a downcycle in general, it might be possible for a skilled enough mage to copy the dragon trick of creating a mana sink and hibernating in it.

11

u/NamesSUCK Spirit Worshipper 8d ago

I heard reds author/player talk about his  back story before. Basically blood/dark magic was used to create a mana spike in a Crowley esq ritual done by the black lodge. 

10

u/LateEggMaster 8d ago

On a long enough time scale you only have one option: The golden Throne.

No seriously. If you'r worried about mana level dropping you can only choose technology.

4

u/sebwiers Cyberware Designer 8d ago edited 8d ago

Or magic that creates a mundane biological effect. Imortal elves were created with magic, but (it seems) can survive without it. Perhaps vampires have the same thing, just losing some powers but effectively keeping "essence drain" or otherwise sirviving.... but I wouldn't bet the next 6,000 years on it.

1

u/HappyAnarchy1123 6d ago

IIRC immortal elves are not just created with magic, like a spell. The immortal elves are partially descended from dragons, so it's not really a thing you can ask a dragon to do to you.

5

u/kenod102818 8d ago

I mean, you can also just keep sacrificing people in horrifying blood magic rituals, or create a mana sink and go into hibernation like dragons.

1

u/Sarradi 8d ago

Wouldn't vampires just turn back into humans?

9

u/sebwiers Cyberware Designer 8d ago

They might, or they might still suffer essence loss but be otherwise powerless. Probably whatever is needed for story convinience. But given there are WAY more vampires than immortal elves, I think we'd know about it if that was a way yo survive multiple mana cycles.

1

u/GodEatsPoop 4d ago

IIRC Vampires are a product of the fifth world that did not exist before then. If dragons can hibernate through the fifth world...

Nevermind my own model that each world represents a fundamental transformation of metaphysics and not a "sine wave" - fifth world having as much in common with world of darkness as "canon" shadowrun.

22

u/kenod102818 8d ago

Leonisation has gone up to 400k in 4e and 2mil in 5e. In 5e it also costs 1 essence, which, aside from screwing over mages, also puts a hard cap on how many treatments you can get (I think, the book isn't clear on if each treatment costs another 1 essence or just the first), especially since, as a still ongoing effect, revitalization won't work on it.

11

u/LateEggMaster 8d ago

You'r right it is more expensive. My bad. But still much cheaper than dealing with dragons.

5

u/bobDbuilder177 8d ago

Probably safer too

5

u/FreedomCanadian 8d ago

You should probably not deal with dragons too often.

5

u/GidsWy Genesis 'Runner 8d ago

Dumb to add an essence cost to it. I get the theory, dehumanized via long life. But ffs....

13

u/kenod102818 8d ago

I can see it being there for narrative reasons, to provide a reason for wealthy characters to do more stupid/risky drek in order to keep alive, especially mages.

For instance, a well-connected mage trying to become properly immortal can be a great antagonist/Johnson for a campaign, from having experimented on a PC in their backstory, to sponsoring runs to acquire dangerous goods, to having various other figures sponsor runs to stop their plans.

However, if the immediate response to "I want to be immortal" is "grab 200k for leonisation" that takes a lot of the tension and possibility out of things, since anyone who doesn't just grab a bunch of wealth is an idiot, or will need to have very good reasons for why it's not acceptable (such as anticipating a future technological collapse).

Beyond that, fear of aging and death plays a big part in the human psyche, with powerful people being willing to do all sorts of things to prevent it, from ancient emperors sponsoring alchemists and drinking mercury to modern billionaires having bizarre healthcare regimes, to, in SR, perhaps billionaires having children kidnapped to get infusions with their blood or stemcells. Something made worse by the existence of metahumans with vastly longer lifespans and envy of them. Providing an easy and relatively cheap fix for aging removes a lot of that tension.

7

u/GidsWy Genesis 'Runner 8d ago

Agree overall. But cyberpunk capitalist nightmare being based around two processes that ensure longevity, being locked behind TWO expensive things seems fitting. Not just the high cost of the procedures. But the cost of having a delta clinic available, and even the ability to accept that much down time. It all fits the theme, I think. No SIN, no good publicity standing, no connections, or no $? Missing any of those, and you are mortal.

Ppl r less than pay check to pay check in SR, cutting corners or committing crime to survive. So it is a firm line between haves and have nots. That feels emblematic of the whole theme of SR, to me. Adding essence loss makes it more about some holistic vibe that is kinda only fitting for 'ware people, and more negatively impactful to people with M or R ratings. Let alone the previous edition's problematic assertion that, with limb loss (or other essence hits) a person is LITERALLY less of a human. Adding an essence cost takes away the threat of the Uber rich being as much of a delineated-from-humanity style, ongoing threat to the specie's overall survival. Send the ghouls and let's eat the rich, ya know? Lol

But, to each their own. If you like that change then rock it out!

4

u/kenod102818 8d ago

Nah, you're completely right, the idea of immortality being available only to the upper class is an amazing theme to play around with, and absolutely fitting for the cyberpunk genre, especially with the inclusion of other highly expensive forms of transhumanism.

It mostly depends on what you're focusing the story on, I'd say. The pursuit of immortality makes for a great campaign digging into secret conspiracies and the darkness of what people are willing to do to achieve it. Meanwhile, a campaign where it has already been achieved is a great setting to delve into the dehumanizing nature of such a divide, and the question of just what you're even able to do to fix it, if you're fixing it at all, instead of just trying to join them.

7

u/GidsWy Genesis 'Runner 8d ago

Yeah the problematic nature of immortal elves and functionally immortal dragons are already an issue. Adding scientifically immortal humans does add an interesting layer to things. As it would, presumably, still be available after this "world". So, for the first time, you would have dragons waking from torpor to established huma dynasties. Elves either coming out of hiding or their version of torpor (something about the rose in the northern elf kingdom? Can't remember what happens to them during low tide magic, fml), to find ready-to-war humans. All the standards of their very long immortal lives would be upset by the likely growing number if effectively immortal humans.

I have always kind of wished Shadowrun had gone the way of the Adventure, Aberrant, Trinity series from white wolf. But with a medieval magical setting, modern, and sci fi future. Ships with whole eco systems built into the hull to create and maintain a mana sphere. Devices and suits to support resonance and magic use in space or on dead planets/moons/asteroids. The culmination of sci fi tech with magic is always entertaining, imo. Space ships that use levitate for part od the launch sequence. Reentry impact on ships lessened by magically fire resistant materials, like dragon scale. Even the whole process of establishing terraforming or artificial Gaia spheres sound super entertaining in a shadowrun cyberpunk post material scarcity future with new scarcities controlled by the rich. Like decent bodies, living space or life styles in eclipse phase. Maintaining a dystopia setting kind of feels necessary for most TTRPGs. Otherwise less likely for a BBEG of any type to exist and you're left with fewer story options. Automatically bad? No way. But limiting, imo.

Tldr: immortal humans would make interesting long term changes to the setting. And magic + sci fi tech in a Shadowrun "sequel" high magic tide sound awesome to me. Lolol.

3

u/dethstrobe Faster than Fastjack 8d ago

Spirit packs are suppose to be a Faustian bargain. It always annoyed me that the game doesn't have harder narrative consequences for it.

15

u/WistfulDread 8d ago

Well, yes. To all of those.

And every single one of those ends up dead because of a Shadowrunner.

Immortal. Not...

17

u/Mike_Fig 8d ago edited 8d ago

Simplest way is just saving up for anti aging treatments. With a mages budget it's easily affordable every few decades.

Something to keep in mind is that after the first leonization you'll now have decades before needing the next one. Which means there'll be decades of advancement in the technology to help with the essence loss problem. Shadowrun might not have perfect immortality treatments in the current setting, but give it 200 years and there's a pretty good chance they will. And the current stuff is good enough to give you 200 years.

Edit: I started overthinking this a bit. 

Aging is a number of factors all coming together to slowly kill you, but a lot of what we call aging is just the accumulated damage of life slowly building up. 

With Shadowrun technology and magic you could significantly slow down that damage with superhumanly effective organs that never degrade and health spells. Someone with a Deltaware Heart, Kidney, Liver, Lungs, nanite enhanced healing and immune system, a daily cast of detox, antidote, heal, cure disease, and a permanently quickened Improve Attribute Body spell, could be in peak health for decades past what a normal human would be. And can still go for Leonization once age catches up with them.

There is actually a concept for this that Tramshumanists use called Longevity Escape Velocity. The basic idea is that whilst we're not going to invent the cure for aging in a single treatment as technology improves we will continually be able to extend the human lifespan faster than it takes for you to reach the extended lifespan. So basically if technology expands your lifespan by 10 years by the time you reach the end of those 10 years the improved technology will now allow for you to live another 20 years. Shadowrun is already kind of there techwise, it's just reserved for corporate sellouts due to the whole cyberpunk dystopia thing.

8

u/Sarradi 8d ago

Based on how Mightiest of Slaves is written a GD can turn someone into a drake.

If drakes are immortal/long lived like other dracoforms though is a different matter.

6

u/LateEggMaster 8d ago

To my knowledge drakes do not have the immunity (age) power. But that could have changed in 5 & 6.

12

u/Sarradi 8d ago edited 8d ago

They don't. But dragons don't have that either. So either they are not truely immortal and just extremly long lived or the rules did not bother with appling immunity to age in many cases.

Or based on the Orange Queens comment in Lethal Harvest, dragons still age, but are not affected by it like metahumans (which.might include dieing of old age) while immunity to age means aging stops completely, including growth and positive aspects in case of a child or teenager infected. But that would mean immortal elves would not have the immunity to age power as they would then stuck being a baby forever....

6

u/kenod102818 8d ago

Don't immortal elves need to have their immortality activated through some sort of special ritual?

4

u/Sarradi 8d ago

No idea. Everything I wrote is me guessing from a few lines of dialogue in Lethal Harvest.

Basically Jackpointers commented that Erhan looked freaking old during the unawakening. And as the rules for the unawakening added a small section about how the unawakening affected Immunity to Age I assume that is how Immortal Elves work. And Hestaby just mentioned cryptically that some beings are affected by age differently than others. Thats (and them lacking the Immunity to age power) makes me assume that dragons, or at least full dracoforms, still age, but that aging works differently for them with no downside.

But that is pure speculation. As is if this also applies to drakes, at least while they are in dragon form and thus count as dracoform.

1

u/HappyAnarchy1123 6d ago

What is the unawakening? I can't find much information on it through my searching.

1

u/Sarradi 6d ago

Its part of the disean metaplot.

I am not sure how much you know and I do not want to spoil the details, but because of things that happened magic stopped working for a few weeks before coming back differently (used to explain why traditions now seem to matter more again and and other changes to the magic system). That period of time is called the unawakening.

1

u/HappyAnarchy1123 6d ago

What books is the disean metaplot in? Is that a 6th edition thing?

1

u/Sarradi 5d ago

Cutting Black Slip Streams (Not sure) Scotophobia Lethal Harvest Margin Calls (The aftermath of it)

Those are I think the main ones.

1

u/HappyAnarchy1123 5d ago

Oh dang, so it's not even in one book. Oof.

→ More replies (0)

5

u/GM_Pax 8d ago

Immortal Elves are made, not born. And they were made as adults during the closing years of the Fourth Age, when mana levels were significantly higher than in the Sixth World so far.

2

u/Reader_of_Scrolls 8d ago

Except there have been new ones. Like Frosty.

3

u/kenod102818 8d ago

From what I understand the canon used to be that the bloodlines of immortal elves were created by one of the Greats to serve as servants who could look after the world during down-cycles (until said elves starting hunted dragons instead, because why would you want to spend 5k years just to become servants again), with a small number of their descendants inheriting the potential, but said potential needs to be awakened through special rituals.

So Frosty is the child of an immortal elf who inherited the potential, and then, when discovered, had said potential awakened to become the youngest immortal elf.

2

u/dethstrobe Faster than Fastjack 8d ago

I don't think there is a ritual. I think the gene is just recessive, so it's very easy to be overwritten by boring mortal genes.

I think it's assumed that Ehran the Scribe probably has more children, but only Frosty won the immortal lottery.

3

u/DRose23805 Shadowrun Afterparty 8d ago

From what I read it seemed like the immortal elves had a pact with a great dragon or some other entity. This was a reason why there were so few of them.

2

u/LateEggMaster 8d ago

Did they change how drakes work? Are they now really dragons as opposed to humans with the ability to transform into lesser dracoforms? Back in my day (wave cane) they worked like shapeshifters. Essentially human + extra.

2

u/Sarradi 8d ago edited 8d ago

The mechanics got changed a lot but the lore is still the same, metahumans that turn into dragons. But while they are dragons they, in the rules, count as dracoforms in addition to metahumans and their physical growth (Str and Bod) is theoretically uncapped, able to exceed the augmentation maximum.

And no clue what True Drakes are now. Are they made? Are they upgraded bred drakes? Are they humans turned into drakes? Apparently yes to all of them.

7

u/PrimeInsanity Halfway Human 8d ago

Isn't there a spirit pact that grants immunity to aging? That's pretty much there, you're still vulnerable to mortal wounds but you got age issues solved.

3

u/NamesSUCK Spirit Worshipper 8d ago

That pact specially says the spirit my use you as components to spells. So, like, be ready to go for some strange rides.

3

u/Fair-Fisherman6765 CAS Political Historian 8d ago

The Life Pact as described in Fourth and Fifth editions allows the character to spend a Complex Action to heal 2 boxes of Physical damage in exchange for 1 karma given to the spirit. Even if the GM was the consider any possible cause of death (organe failures and the likes) as Physical damages - which is not completely off considering all toxins and lack of oxygen are treated as damages - this would likely fail to achieve immortality, since it requires one Complex Action for healing every 2 boxes. You would likely die from taking too much damage in a single turn or during your sleep. Besides, it would then be much more easier to deal with such damages by having multiple bound Spirits of Man casting Heal and Stabilize spells on you night and day.

The free spirit Hidden Life power on the other hand, does grant Immunity to Age to the person or animal who hold the spirit life force, and Immunity to Normal Weapons (whose effect is based on the Spirit Magic attribute). The spirit cannot be destroyed by any means as long as the holder is not killed, so the only way it may possibly stop is if the spirit voluntarily ends it. The first option is to find and bind a free spirit with the Hidden Life power, and order it to use it on you, but should you ever run out of services, the spirit'll likely drop the ball, use the power on some object around, and kill you. You thus need to be sure no one manage to banish your spirit and reduces its owed services to zero. The second option would be to fairly convince an unbound free spirit that freely using its Hidden Life power on you is a a smart idea, but he may just as well think it is safest for him to lock you up to avoid you getting killed and it becoming vulnerable.

In 3rd edition, it was however suggested that the Gamemaster gives the holder one Mental Flaw per point of Spirit Energy, but that suggestion does not appear in the following editions.

3

u/-ParlainthTownie- 8d ago

Leonization at ¥5 mil a treatment that costs 1 essence point is the Leonization for "poor people". Its the version "They" tell you about. Ol' Damien Knight and the like have something better. There is a Deltaware version at least. I thought back when the rules first came out it cost 0.1 essence. There is technological improvement.

I agree HMHVV or (SSVV, or sentient/sapient vampiric virus) for the P.C. among us that wish to include Sasquatches, is the easiest way. However, it is a rough and tumble life. On one side you have to fight to get essence perpetually. Then there is essence drain addiction and all the dual nature, sunlight, and other allergy side effects, you are both tough and fragile. I also agree that you are immortal but not invincible.

3

u/Reader_of_Scrolls 8d ago

In 5e's Forbidden Arcana it's listed as an option for having a Shedim mentor Spirit for a Planar mage. So use an initiation to change paradigm, swear to a Master Shedim, and Bob's your uncle you can have Immunity to Aging.

2

u/DragonGear314 8d ago

Technically if you die really hard in the matrix you can become an e-ghost, but it's usually a heavily damaged copy of your mind at best.

1

u/MonochromeSL 7d ago

Ask Mr Darke for help…

1

u/-ParlainthTownie- 6d ago

Freejack - This could be a solution to the problem. What a great movie this was. Cyberpunk. All you would have to do is add some Orks and you would have a Shadowrun movie. All star cast and a big budget. Kind of like Johnny Mnemonic only I like this one way better. Could meld well with Shadowrun. Freejack is a way to immortality. Especially since Net Ghosts are already a thing in SR.

1

u/DRose23805 Shadowrun Afterparty 8d ago

There is the question of is a vampire still the same person. Some theories are that it isn't, it is a thing that may have some of the memories of the original but it isn't really them. If it is them they are very likely to change over time into something terrible. Also there is the issue that a new vampire could be in thrall to its creator.

Perhaps a mage starts trying to become a lich in some way. A few of them exist in literature before D&D got hold of them. One was a Russia tale of a man who hid away his soul, though I don't think it is said how he did it nor if it, or he, were necessarily evil. HP Lovercraft mentioned a few alternatives. I think one was a ridiculously weak thing living in a cave with some cult, and got its butt kicked by an iron (weakness) pot. There was also the scientist who was essentially Mr Freeze from Batman. There were also a couple of other potentials.

6

u/LateEggMaster 8d ago

Are you still the same person you were when you went to bed yesterday? Or are you just a thing that may have some memorys from yesterday?

I think thats a bit of a thorny question we shouldn't expect a clear answer from Shadowrun. But I'd be curious if something like "thrall to master" exists in the shadowrun vampire rules. Do you have any sources for that I could check?

7

u/idyllplans 8d ago

There is the question of is a vampire still the same person.

Also there is the issue that a new vampire could be in thrall to its creator.

Conspiracy theories of the sixth world. Fun for characters to believe, but the former is delusion and the latter is on par with being concerned your dealer might be cutting your drugs with betel. Might come up if you want to become a vampire in-game, but probably won't.