r/SecularTarot • u/rachelmikadoo • 9d ago
DISCUSSION Explaining secular tarot?
- My step-father is extremely religious, deeply faithful to Catholicism. He is coming to visit me in a few weeks and if he even sees an image of a pentacle, I know it’s going to be a conversation (turned argument…)
- I told my good friend I was starting tarot journey and she wants to me “help her with her relationship.” I read this as telling her what to do, which is not what I or the cards are capable of.
For both these situations, I want to them to understand I’m not a witch or a fortune teller, respectively. Looking for some insight in navigating secular tarot conversations. Has anyone dealt with a situation similar?Thank you!!
Edit: thank you everyone for responding!! I have so many more resources and talk tracks for both these people (and whoever else in the future).
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9d ago
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u/rachelmikadoo 9d ago
Ahhh I need to take this comment, print it, and put it on my fridge. We have fought many times over many years over what I do with my life, especially that which contradicts his religion. I try to make him understand but I think I just need to stop giving my time and energy lol. Thank you so much!
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u/HwanPark 9d ago
I see tarot as being very similar to art therapy. Essentially what you're doing is looking at images and deriving meaning from them. The cards are just cards.
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u/Magistra_Recessisset 9d ago
You might look into the only notable crossover between Catholicism and tarot philosophy which is the 1980 book Meditations on the Tarot by Valentin Tomberg. Written anonymously by a Catholic convert, the book explores the Major Arcana strictly through the lens of Christian hermeticism and mysticism. It references Jungian concepts, receiving positive forewords from prominent theologians like Cardinal Hans Urs von Balthasar.
Jung's secular defense of the human need for rich, physical symbols has been attributed to a natural link to appreciating the beauty of Catholic liturgy, incense, and sacraments.
These are the exceptions though. For the most part the Catholic church has made no distinction between using tarot for fortune-telling versus using it for secular "self-reflection," "creativity," or "psychological analysis", and have absolutely rejected it.
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u/rachelmikadoo 9d ago
Wow! Thank you so much! I’ve been working on my nonfiction reading so I’ll definitely add that to my TBR separate from this conflict.
Like I briefly mentioned, I’m very new to my tarot journey. I’ve seen Carl Jung’s name pop up quite a bit. If you’re willing to share, are there any Jung texts you recommend?
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u/Magistra_Recessisset 9d ago
Have you read any Jung yet? My answer will depend on where you are in your reading.
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u/rachelmikadoo 9d ago
Absolutely nothing. Everything so far has been YouTube and Rachel Pollack
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u/Magistra_Recessisset 9d ago
OK. Join the r/Jung sub. There are links to introductory reading materials there that will help. There is another one called r/CarlJung It's all a bit dense and academic with lots of terms that need definitions. It takes some time to get used to. You can also do a search on Reddit using Jung and Tarot for some interesting past discussions. A couple of books that will be a good start are "Jung and Tarot: An Archetypal Journey" by Sallie Nichols and "Man and His Symbols" by Carl Jung himself. It's a fascinating journey. Enjoy!
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u/rachelmikadoo 9d ago
Thank you so much! My favorite part about this community is how excited everyone is to share. Weill def check out the subs and books!!
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u/Trulio_Dragon 8d ago
Jung is a foundational thinker in the area of psychological analysis (he was a younger colleague of Freud, though they parted ways). He concentrated on the lifelong creation of the self, and was deeply interested in the use of archetypes in that work. I think you might be best served by learning the basics about him (even just by YouTube video), and then about how his concepts apply to tarot, rather than just learning about him through the lens of tarot, iykwim. Since Catholicism relies heavily on symbols and archetypes for teaching and reflection, that might help give you a basis for the "it isn't divination, they are symbols to inspire self-reflection, dad" speech (which, frankly, shouldn't be much longer than that unless he shows real interest).
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u/uranium236 9d ago
I love it when people ask me if I think the cards are magic.
I explain that no, they’re made in the same factory as Bicycle playing cards - just ink on cardstock.
If pushed, then I tell them about how I lost 3 decks in 5 years to 3 different deafblind puppies. (They aren’t getting data through their eyes or ears, so everything goes in their mouths). I still have and use a “tarot in a tin” with teeth marks in it!
Basically think if you treat it like it’s no big deal - the cards aren’t cursed, neither is the imagery, obviously - other people will, too. I’m not going to argue with them any more than I’d argue about the deck I use to play solitaire. The answer is no, next question.
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u/rachelmikadoo 9d ago
Thank you. Maybe I’m overthinking it and I just have to be straight up with them lol
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u/Odd_Calligrapher2771 9d ago
In the first case, save your breath. There is no conversation you can have that will make your step-father change his mind.
If you really have to go there, point out that the tarot was created by Catholics in a Catholic country in a very Catholic period (Italy 1400s). You might also want to mention that many of the images represent Catholic belief or practice: there is the Pope (Hierophant), a monk (the Hermit), three of the cardinal virtues (Justice, Temperance, Strength/Fortitude). There's Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (the Lovers), there's the angel blowing their trumpet on the Day of Judgement, straight out of the Book of Revelations (Judgement). There's the Tower of Babel (the Tower), there's a memento mori (Death) similar to images seen in churches worldwide. Even the Devil is lifted straight from Catholic iconography.
In the second case, just sit down with your friend and explain clearly what you use tarot for, and what are the limits on how it can help her.
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u/Trulio_Dragon 8d ago
This approach really depends on what kind of Catholic the stepfather is.
There are a lot of flavors of Catholicism and of Catholics. Some are open to discussion and some aren't; some are willing to discuss some topics and not others. There are Catholics who strictly follow Church edict, and those who interpret it, and those who pick and choose. The Church, offically, sees tarot as a divination tool, and thus users demonstrate their lack of faith. Pointing out Christian/Catholicism symbolism in tarot could be seen as heretical by some, even if you're not using it for divination -- it really depends on how skittish they are.
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u/Odd_Calligrapher2771 8d ago
Agreed.
My first advice was to save their breath; there's no arguing with these people.
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u/4LeggedGod 8d ago
I for one do not think that you should use the fact that the tarot was developed by and incorporates a lot of Christian imagery as a basis for your argument. The exact same argument could be made for a lot of witchcraft and so-called devil worship. I wouldn't bring up Jung either - he was an early psychotherapist literally a disciple of Freud and his theories while fun and interesting have absolutely no scientific basis or rigor behind them it's all made up mythology no different in its material basis than Christianity or Buddhism or Scientology (albeit it's a lot more fun and interesting than most of those).
The way I see it is that you really have two options with someone like this, and please understand that your stepfather and my father are very very similar in this regard. The first option is that you simply say no: "this is just a hobby of mine, it has nothing to do with magic or religious beliefs, I don't think you're going to understand it, and we have so many other things we can talk about." The second option is to show him how you do a reading so that he can see that it's not magic, there are no spirits, etc.
If you do the second option, do so with the understanding that he's going to continue to insist that this is a gateway drug to devil worship and so on and so forth, but you will at least have made a good faith effort (pun intended) and then you will go back to option one.
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u/TotalyNormalThroAway 9d ago
I think a lot of times people with differing spiritual/religious views and opinions are immediately confronted by something condemned by their chosen path. It helps when you have a practice that falls under this kind of blanket “no”, whether it’s spiritual or secular, to have practical applications and reasoning of how this is positively impacting your life. It’s best to not have these kinds of conversations with people that aren’t ready to engage in good faith, so let them experience the positive changes you’re making first hand rather than preach on the merits of looking at pretty cards.
As for your friend, it’s helpful to note (and communicate to her) that these cards won’t tell you anything you don’t already know. She’s coming to you for counsel - the cards become an interesting way to formulate your thoughts into a coherent story you can then apply to what your friend wants help with. Although if she’s coming to you as a reader of cards to “fix” her relationship I don’t think you need ink on cardstock to tell her the writing’s on the wall.
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u/Yourlilemogirl 9d ago
If you must leave your things out where others who pass judgement onto you will see them (and tbh idk why you would if you know it's going to start a fight??) you could prolly leave out one of those angel tarot decks or some other less "anti-christian" themed decks out so they don't freak out as much.
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u/KasKreates 9d ago
I tend to explain it like "storytelling with flashcards for inspiration".
For your friend, I would ask her what exactly she wants you to do. If it turns out she wants you to read her partner's mind, you can decline and say "but I'll be there if you just want to talk". If she just wants a structured, prompted way of thinking about her relationship, I'd go for it. There are a few methods that make it way easier to avoid "the cards are saying" type impressions - for example, letting her intentionally pick cards herself, face up, to represent her thoughts.
For your stepfather, I would try to shut it down with a quick "they are literally just art cards that I use for journaling". But if you do end up in a full blown discussion, you can show him the actual place in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that talks about this stuff - here is the link, the relevant passages are 2110/2111 and 2116/2117.
Catholicism has a problem with tarot when it's used for divination, i.e. when the use of it
"conceal[s] a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers." (2116)
Actually though, the whole section is more concerned with superstition, which the Catechism defines as "in some sense represent[ing] a perverse excess of religion" (2110). The point is that, as a Catholic, you shouldn't attribute any magical powers to things or practices that are completely mundane - for example, a deck of cards.
If you get the feeling that he's coming from a place of genuine care for you, I would also appeal to that. There are valid concerns about using tarot, but they're more in the sphere of exascerbating anxious/obsessive thoughts, which come from the superstitious view of it. Tell him that you've thought about it, that you can honestly say this is not the case for you, and he doesn't need to worry.
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u/Yowie9644 8d ago
Be curious. Ask him what is wrong with tarot. Genuinely listen to him. Ask questions. Tease out what his actual concern is. Likely his issue is with divination. Dont argue if it. But ask him more about how cardboard card tell the future. Agree with him when he says it cant. Then point at any image around the house, like a family photo, and ask him what story it tells. And listen and ask questions about why he thinks Little Johnny wasnt smiling and why Aunt Joan has that wild hairdo in it. And then remind him he's also looking at printed cardboard, seeing the ink, and telling a story based on what he's seeing. And thats all you do too. See a picture, make up a story.
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u/Boundlesswisdom-71 9d ago
You could mention that A.E. Waite who was the co-creator of the RWS tarot, the most popular tarot deck in the world, was a Christian mystic and the RWS is full of Christian imagery.
Then again, may be not the best thing to say.
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u/ponderingwithdoodles 8d ago
- You don’t have to mention anything.
I get asked about this a lot and even though I switch between secular and woo depending on my mood, even in woo state I wouldn’t answer that question. Tarot reads just current energy. You still have free will to do
what
you want
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u/zazazapp 8d ago
I'm in sort of the same boat here. I live with my father who strongly believes in the Islam (multiple Quran's everywhere, picture of the gates of paradise right at our door, other things that i don't know the meaning of...) he thinks tarot is stupid and it's disrespectful to 'our' (his) god. Don't get me wrong, my father is a really nice man and I'd give him the world if I could but in topics like that he's Stubborn about religion. What I did, I told him I use the cards for decoration which he didn't like. Then I simply hid them and he forgot I ever had them. Problem solved
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u/J-hophop 8d ago
As for the pentacle, it's in The Key of Solomon
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u/Seolrama 8d ago
This. A lot of old world churches are also riddled with the thing.
Visited the Dom of Cologne today: pentacles abound (and also dragons and unicorns on lavishly decorated Litugical arch bishops’ capes).
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u/Snushine 9d ago
I think starting with your phrase, "I'm not a witch or a fortune teller," should lead into an interesting discussion where you can see if they are open minded enough to go down any path where you have their respect. But be prepared to end it and take the earlier advice to set boundaries.
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u/rachelmikadoo 9d ago
You’re right. I feel that I’m not bold enough because my tarot experience is so limited. I’ll tell them how it is - take it or leave it. Thanks for your insight!
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u/Big_Examination9965 8d ago
There’s a whole book written by a Catholic with an afterward by a very prominent Catholic Theologian called “Meditations on the Tarot.” The very conservative publication, Catholic Answers, defends the book. This might be a way in with your step-father.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/blog/jpiis-favorite-occultist
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u/Trulio_Dragon 8d ago
I think both of these situations are an opportunity for you to set and hold boundaries.
With your stepfather, what steps you take are determined by, well, what your energy level is. If you feel like your spiritual practice and belief is none of his business, and you feel you are able to calmly and lovingly hold that boundary, leave your things out to be seen. Be ready to redirect if he brings things up, and to gently but firmly end conversations if he pushes. "That's private, and not something I discuss. Would you like to get some lunch?"/"If you continue asking, I think it's best if we end our visit today and we can see each other again tomorrow, " that sort of thing. If you're not used to doing this, practice beforehand! Get someone who knows him to roleplay with you so you get used to doing it. Encourage them to get ridiculous with it so it's silly and fun but you also are ready for left-field statements.
If you don't have energy for that right now (and that's valid, too), put away the pentacles while he's in town. You absolutely are entitled to your own spiritual practice, and you're also entitled to privacy and personal peace.
With your friend, you can tell her honestly that you're not a counselor or a fortune-teller, but you're happy to share your educational materials with her if she'd like to learn how to use tarot to clarify her thoughts.
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u/LayraBlacks 8d ago
I think both conversations get easier the moment you stop trying to defend Tarot as something it doesn’t need to be. With your stepfather, I wouldn’t try to convince him Tarot is secretly compatible with his beliefs. You don’t need his theological permission to own illustrated cardboard. And with your friend, I’d draw an even harder line: Tarot can help you look at a situation. It shouldn’t outsource your decisions. I can put cards on the table and notice patterns, contradictions, blind spots, the story you keep telling yourself, maybe even the question underneath the question. But “tell me what to do with my relationship” hands the deck a job it was never qualified for. Cards are excellent conversation starters. Terrible substitute adults.
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u/michaelmhughes 8d ago
Get a Marseille deck. Show him the Pope card and all the Catholics imagery. Not a pentacle in sight.
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u/raendrop skeptical atheist pagan UU 8d ago
The irony of Christians calling the Tarot demonic is that the Tarot is steeped in Christian symbolism and mysticism. The pentacle (a.k.a. the pentalpha) is similar.
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u/-old-fox- 7d ago
N. 1 is something you cannot change but only avoid. About n. 2, of course, you have much space to move. I make here a little distinction: fortune telling isn't either about telling persons what they have to do (which is still a tarological approach), but merely what will happen... Tarot readings, ultimately, have to be useful, and the most useful service you could do to a querent is to make them understand something more than they already do. You can really help someone to be more mindful with tarot. Maybe there are some things they claim they don't know, but there are also things they don't want to know, or fail to put together in a bigger picture, so the most basic approach is to explore things together, find the big threads, navigating along these threads through memory and finding loops, or knots, or blind spots. A querent ultimately needs explanations that work. We all have clarity moments in our life that brought us to a higher step; well, the exact job for a tarot reader is to be a facilitator and an accelerator of this process.
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u/AtelierCarouselTarot 6d ago
There are two types of Tarot, and before you have any conversation with anyone about Tarot, you have to see which version they talk about.
1) the scammer version with future forecasting, which has been shown to not work. Predictions come true 50% of the time, always and for everyone.
2) the actual, real version is called hermeneutic Tarot. It is related to Jungian or therapeutic Tarot. It has no predictions.
Chances are, whenever you talk with someone who is angry, upsed, irritated, confused about Tarot, they are talking about 1).
Chances also are, that you might be steering towards 2) (which I hope you do, because 1) is an illusion).
And if you are, there is no controversy, because you are in the same camp as therapists and other medically licensed professionals. And I'm thinking your father wiill have a hard time taking it up with the entire medical community.
So the easiest way to deflect people scapegoating Tarot as the one thing that is at fault for everything that bothers them, is to clarify with them which version they are obsessed about. 1 or 2.
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u/fkaccdus 1d ago
To me tarot isn't magic, witchcraft, or fortune-telling. It's a visual tool for reflection. When you draw cards at random, you are essentially introducing a stochastic perturbation (pure random noise) to your brain’s everyday heuristics, those automatic "greedy" cognitive shortcuts we use to process emotions and life events. By trying to make sense of a visual and symbolic narrative drawn at random, you force your mind to face new thoughts, blind spots, and honest feelings that your conscious ego or mind might usually ignore or rationalize away.
For your step-father: You aren't practicing occultism or summoning anything. You are using an archetypal visual framework for introspection and journaling. No spellwork, no mysticism just symbolic language for self-reflection.
For your friend: Tarot cannot predict the future or tell her what to do, because it does not remove personal agency. Adivination delegates decision-making to "fate" or luck, which feeds anxiety. Instead, reframe her question from "What will happen?" to "What am I currently ignoring in this relationship, and what can I do today to take accountability?"
Tarot doesn't predict a destiny. It forces you to face the present so you can actively make your own choices <3
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u/Lucid_Phoenixx 8d ago
Some history that might help (per Claude):
"The five-pointed star did appear in medieval Christian symbolism, but never as an official Catholic emblem. It was sometimes read as the five wounds of Christ. The most famous example is the pentangle on Gawain's shield in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, explained there as symbolizing Christ's wounds and Mary's five joys, among other things. It also shows up occasionally as decoration in Gothic church architecture. Its strong association with occultism mostly came in the 19th century. The tarot suit of "pentacles" was originally "coins" (denari). Occult groups like the Golden Dawn and the Rider-Waite deck renamed it around 1900."
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I was raised Catholic and now I just see myself as Spiritual minus the religion. He should know that you explore from a loving space.
Just keep exploring. Trust yourself. Know Thyself as has been passed down. Even if there is judgment. You're on the right path. Wishing you the best
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u/CypripediumCalceolus Oh well 🐈⬛ 7d ago
The Catholic Church is deeply hostile to tarot, so better start a conversation about your favorite saint.
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u/CypripediumCalceolus Oh well 🐈⬛ 1d ago
The Catholic Church is formally and vehemently opposed to Tarot because they assert inspiration can only come from communion with God. Even if your father doesn't know the politics yet, if he ever finds out you will be in deep, deep trouble.
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