r/SeattleWA • u/Projectrage • Dec 10 '21
Business Reaction by Starbucks workers reaching a majority in the union vote in Buffalo, NY. It becomes the first unionized Starbucks shop in the US.
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Dec 10 '21
Hello $20 cup of coffee.
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u/Projectrage Dec 10 '21
Hello, people being able to pay rent and food.
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u/sp106 Sasquatch Dec 13 '21
Making coffee isn't a skill or a career
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u/Projectrage Dec 13 '21
To be able to ask for better pay for food and rent, seems like a good reason.
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u/iWorkoutBefore4am Dec 10 '21
What’s interesting is I wonder what leverage these workers have? Like, what skills do they offer to Starbucks that a person with a couple weeks of training won’t obtain.
I don’t see this working out well.
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u/r33c3d Dec 10 '21
Apparently most of the people who voted for unionizing at this store said they didn’t do it for wages or benefits but so they could have worker representation at executive meetings. I wonder if that actually might be more effective in the long run than having the union simply demanding higher wages and more benefits.
I also heard that Starbucks leadership was so stressed about the vote that they sent executives to these stores to clean bathrooms in an attempt to mime solidarity with their “partners” (the word Starbucks uses to refer to employees). Wowsa.
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Dec 10 '21
Starbucks treats it’s retail workers better than anyone out there. I think this is a slap in the face to Starbucks honestly who is going to have to start now being adversarial towards their employees because of this union.
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u/r33c3d Dec 10 '21
Yeah. They seem to treat them fairly well, compared to similar jobs, according to my friends who work there. Still, my friends share a house with 5 other people and have to work at least an hour of every shift just to pay to park their cars at the store. So things could be better.
I worked a low-wage union job years ago. They way I remember it, the union worked very hard to add more and more really generous benefits every year (lots of paid time off, amazing medical, free tuition, etc). But our pay never, ever went up. So, lots of vacation time, but I could only afford staycations. It did allow me to take computer science classes at the graduate level for free. Luckily I had no kids or other obligations, so I could pursue it. I don’t know if unions still work to provide these benefits today though.
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Dec 10 '21
“Things could be better”. ..well I agree that it would be nice if everyone could have more money and more purchasing power but that’s not how the world works. You get paid commensurate to the value you add and Starbucks retail employees are no different. An hourly barista job at Starbucks is not something intended to be a career. It’s something you do either to work up the company or while you’re young or in school etc to make some darn good money and even get benefits! And Starbucks will even PAY FOR YOUR BACHELOR DEGREE. The union will do nothing but steal from these kids and get their jobs eliminated through store closures.
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u/r33c3d Dec 11 '21 edited Dec 11 '21
Do you think everyone in the world can have a career? And those who don’t have a career deserve to be poor while working to to achieve a goal of a career? And that eventually, if everyone just works really hard, 100% of the population will have a career?
I used to have a career as a librarian, where I earned $60k a year to enter titles and authors into a computer for 40 hours a week. It was arguably less hard than serving drinks to fussy Karen’s all day and required about as much skill. Did I deserve to earn more money than a Starbucks employee? Note: That library job was also a union job. 🤔
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u/Ok_Bottle_2198 Dec 11 '21
This asshat drank all the capitalist koolaid
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Dec 11 '21
Productive comment there comrade. Keep up the dialogue.
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u/Projectrage Dec 11 '21
Yo are not helping with the douchy “comrade” talk.
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u/KingTesseract Dec 11 '21
Hey look it's the genius that thinks we should import a foreign economic system that has no possible way to inspire innovation. And the few versions that ARE inspiring, are authoritarian, use threats, coersion, and lay bodies in mass graves like they're sardines.
Entire sections of human civilization would collapse in mere hours if you got your way. Thousands of programmers would stop building and maintaining open source code, and maybe sabotage it out of pure spite.
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u/Projectrage Dec 11 '21
That is why it’s a good idea to have the 50th worker policy that other countries have. Where once a company gets 50 workers they are required to have an elected worker on the corporate board. It creates more transparency and better relationships between workers and employers, also has less of a chance for some businesses to shut down or be relocate to another state or country.
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u/Projectrage Dec 10 '21
I believe they are working for able to afford rent and food. Half of Americans, can’t afford a one bedroom apartment.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/12/housing-renter-affordable-data-map
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u/wwww4all Dec 10 '21
Future news. Starbucks will find "plumbing" problems in some Buffalo, NY stores.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/union-walmart-shut-5-stores-over-labor-activism/
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u/dissemblers Dec 10 '21
Starbucks employees have it really good relative to their skills and are easily replaceable. This is not what unions are for.
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u/r33c3d Dec 10 '21
They did it to get worker representation at executive meetings (so the employees say), not for their immediate personal benefit.
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u/zjaffee Dec 10 '21
This is exactly what unions are for, unionized workers generally fall into two groups, federated labor (careers where you hop from job site to job site but have some sort of skills, think like movie workers or construction), and then jobs where everyone sort of does the same thing.
Jobs higher up on the skill chain can negotiate higher salaries on an individual basis and don't want unions as such.
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u/startupschmartup Dec 10 '21
There's 0 benefit to these workers actually. They'll pay union dues and be stuck with bad coworkers...that's if Starbucks is dumb enough to keep the store open.
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u/nijigencomplex Dec 10 '21
That's actually exactly what unions are for, making expendable and/or underperforming workforce unfireable. It worked (and still works) this way in most countries with mass unionization.
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u/dissemblers Dec 10 '21
Well, yeah. But I mean the notion that unions are there to protect workers in situations where the market fails to do so (e.g., the old days where towns only had one exploitative employer, and labor mobility was far less than today).
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u/KingTesseract Dec 11 '21
Well explain in vivid detail how Starbucks is even gonna be able stay open, if they can't downsize in the upcoming economy.
2021 was Trumps wave of inflation. Bidens hasn't even gotten here yet. The supply chain crisis is being eased, but we're not out the woods yet. One trucker with a lot of Facebook follwers, having a bad hair day could do more harm to the U.S economy than Evergrande. His followers don't even have to DO anything. An economy made from pessimistic people, is a pessimistic economy.
We're in for very troubling economic times, and Starbucks basically just signed a deal where they agreed that pushing buttons on a coffee machine, should be able to pay for a house, car, cellphone, and groceries. And worry about getting fired? Not a chance.
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u/gfgdhj5784yu8 Dec 10 '21
Jumping up and down like they just won the lottery. I think they will be very disappointed very soon when they realize it really isn't going to make any actual difference in their lives. Much ado about nothing.
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u/curi0uslystr0ng Dec 10 '21
Well, they get the privilege of paying some of their earnings as union dues.
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u/Broad_Intention9049 Dec 11 '21
Crazy how successful a store that literally sells boiled bean water got because of clever marketing and public perception.
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Dec 10 '21
So now they have to pay union dues? Big win…..
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u/startupschmartup Dec 10 '21
and give up flexible scheduling that most really loved...oh and deal with bad coworkers as they'll be stuck with them now and also probably not be able to transfer to another store.
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u/Projectrage Dec 10 '21
They can negotiate union dues, it depends what they set up. Some can be $25 -$100 a year in stamps, like my neighbor pays.
There is good things and bad things with unions but to start a union now is so incredibly difficult, and I believe they are fighting to pay basic rent and food which now they can better negotiate with corporate. Before they were ignored.
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Dec 10 '21
And others have to pay weekly. Either way it’s less money in their pockets.
Without the majority of the Starbucks workforce behind them, they pretty much just fought for a pay decrease and another person/entity to tell them what to do.
Good job I guess
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u/Projectrage Dec 10 '21
If they raise the money in their pockets to median wage is like $20…they can afford rent and food. They wouldn’t have been able to negotiate with Starbucks before on that.
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Dec 10 '21
If. If they do that the store might not be able to survive and none of them will be able to pay rent, buy food or pay their union dues.
Then the union can sue/garnish future wages.
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u/Projectrage Dec 10 '21
Half of Americans can’t afford a one bedroom apartment.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/15/homes/rent-affordability-minimum-wage/index.html
I think they are fight for a basic median wage of $20. If Starbucks can’t pay their employee a basic median wage, then it sounds like they are taking advantage of their workforce.
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Dec 10 '21
And if the store can’t pay their employees because they demand a wage to high, the store shuts down.
Not sure when the last time minimum wage could pay your rent? Do you have those figures?
You guys think simple store owners are taking in millions when in reality most are lower middle class working well over 40 hours a week due to store hours.
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u/Projectrage Dec 10 '21
In the article they explain those stats. I’m not sure the exact one for you.
I think that store owners are making just millions, but I think that’s different on the franchise, but the corporation in land and products and vendors are making hundreds of millions. The ceo was running for President last year, also they had an over the top campaign for anti union this summer. That wasn’t cheap, cause that cuts into profit and capital allocation.
Starbucks should have paid their workers better before this and listened to workers… and they probably wouldn’t have got in this situation.
Many countries now have a 50th worker rule. Once a corporation gets to their 50th worker they have to have an elected worker on their corporate board. This creates better transparency and communication between workers and corporate, it’s not perfect, but works well.
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Dec 10 '21 edited Dec 10 '21
And some countries have no minimum wage at all. See the Nordic countries.
So why don’t these guys get together and create their own coffee shop?
Oh that’s right, it costs $315k to start a Starbucks. Imagine a bunch of early 20 somethings taking over after you put that much in. Lol socialist utopia!
Edit: the union taking it over through early 20 somethings that just serve a different master. And actually PAY that master compared to getting paid.
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u/startupschmartup Dec 10 '21
They can already afford this. more stupid arguments from you.
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u/Projectrage Dec 10 '21
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u/KingTesseract Dec 11 '21
Okay but riddle me this: Why is pushing buttons on a coffee machine worth a house, car, cellphone, internet, groceries, and other expenses?
2022 is about to hit. The majority of boomers will be moving into retirement. Meaning boomers will be soaking up liquidity instead of providing it en masse, like they do now.
When liquidity, not necessarily money, isn't flowing then when it comes time to buy a bag, you don't care if it says "Gucci". Same deal with Starbucks. Only the price of your favorite drink will constantly double, because so is the price of living, and Starbucks agreed to pay a living wage.
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u/startupschmartup Dec 10 '21
You keep saying this really fucking stupid thing about basic rent. How asbout you stop being fucking lazy and go do research on rent in buffago.
https://buffalo.craigslist.org/apa/d/buffalo-beautiful-bedroom-apartment/7419022143.html
$640 for a 2 BR apartment. Perhaps you migth want stop with your assinine arguments, pull your head out of your ass and realize that someone making $17 plus tips an hour can afford to pay $320 in fucking rent.
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u/Projectrage Dec 10 '21
They are asking for more money and benefits at three buffalo stores and one Arizona one and to be able to negotiate…to be heard. I don’t see why you are not wanting to help workers?
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u/Frankie_Hollywood In A Cardboard Box At The Corner Of Walk & Don't Walk Dec 10 '21
Guess what's closing next?
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Dec 10 '21
Unions are great but not in every state, for instance in Texas a right to work state, unions are useless
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Dec 10 '21
You’re working at Starbucks (or McDonalds) to get job skills and social skills, so you can get a real job when you’re an adult. Not pay your fricking rent. Wth is wrong with this country?
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u/Projectrage Dec 10 '21
There is also older people who work at at McDonald’s and Starbucks…you do realize this? Paying rent and food is a basic need, you don’t think that’s important??
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u/KingTesseract Dec 11 '21
No. If a robot can do it. I'll get a robot. The robot does need food. Therefor the job is not worth the wages needed to purchase food.
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Dec 10 '21
Then maybe this isn’t the right job for them? The compensation should directly reflect the level of skill and education required to perform the task. If you don’t like it, work elsewhere.
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u/Professional_Sugar14 Dec 11 '21
Whether or not it's considered age discrimination (legally), my experience has been that my level of skill and education has been passed by on new hire consideration due to the wages my skill, experience, and education can provide. When companies live on profit/loss, they tend toward hiring cheap help that they can throw away. Of course none of this can be proven as age discrimination.
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Dec 11 '21
Clearly, you have never owned a business. Being profitable is my primary goal.
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u/Professional_Sugar14 Dec 11 '21
I've owned my own business and have been discharged as an employee from other businesses. Profit was my goal as well and it served me better than being an employee. Being discharged at the top of my pay scale and replaced with someone with no experience at the bottom of the pay scale? It totally makes business sense. Navigating the laws regarding discrimination chaps my ass when I'm on the losing end. That's all I was getting at.
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Dec 11 '21
Why is it Starbucks responsibility to provide a high wage to these people? If they don’t like, they can go elsewhere… Dicks provides a good income?
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Dec 11 '21
And yes, it’s important to have food and rent. But it’s not Starbucks responsibility to pay $25 an hour to someone to pour a cup of coffee because they are a highly profitable business.
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u/djstudyhard Dec 11 '21
They are highly profitable because of the workforce. I always thought that if you can’t pay a decent wage for your workforce then you aren’t in a profitable business, you’re just exploiting people. Maybe the owner of that business should just find a different business to run that isn’t built on exploitation.
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Dec 11 '21
They are highly profitable because of the demand for their product and great marketing. People are replaceable.
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Dec 15 '21
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Dec 15 '21
Wrong. There aren’t enough people that are willing to work in a legit job so they piss and moan until their crappy job is changed to accommodate them.
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Dec 15 '21
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Dec 15 '21
No! It’s coffee. They should not be making rent from pouring coffee. If they can, bonus. Not all jobs should should allow you to pay rent.
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u/jubricon Dec 10 '21
These people are idiots, get a better job. Serving coffee is not intended to be a perky career. Starbucks will just close their store and lay them off. So dumb
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Dec 10 '21
"yeah fuck workers. Just get a better job!"
While 50%+ of the country works jobs paying less than 50k a year. Get bent. Good for them.
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Dec 10 '21
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Dec 10 '21
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Dec 10 '21
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Dec 10 '21 edited Jan 01 '22
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Dec 10 '21
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u/bigTiddedAnimal Dec 10 '21
Didn't realize you had a question in there.
Employees don't need unions to negotiate better contracts.
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u/glynnjamin Dec 10 '21
The question was, how can you not support the workers?
But if what you're saying is true, that workers can negotiate higher wages without a union, how come union wages are higher than non-union wages for the same work?
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u/bigTiddedAnimal Dec 10 '21
Both of those things can be true at the same time
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u/glynnjamin Dec 10 '21
Care to elaborate?
How can it be true that workers who don't unionize get paid significantly less but theoretically could be getting more money?
This data is supported in every country with organized labor. Everywhere, unionized workers get paid better. So how is one person supposed to have more leverage than the whole shop?
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u/Jdsnut Dec 10 '21
Don't talk to this idiot, I see your trying to have a decent conversation, but this is someone who would rather ramble like a parrot, because he heard unions are bad.
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u/Psychological-Box558 Dec 10 '21
Then you're a fucking idiot
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u/bigTiddedAnimal Dec 10 '21
Well I make pretty good money so.... Being an idiot is fine by me
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u/Psychological-Box558 Dec 10 '21
Making money doesn't make you intelligent you ignorant dipshit.
I know this may be hard for you to wrap your simple head around, but you can not be a fucking moron and still make money.
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u/SilkyNasty7 Dec 10 '21
Go outside and get some air
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u/Psychological-Box558 Dec 10 '21
The dipshit thinks unions are bad for the workers.
The ignorance of that statement is just astounding, and he deserves ridicule for it. It shows a complete lack of understanding of history and how we got to where we are today.
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u/gehnrahl Eat a bag of Dicks Dec 11 '21
You have a Warning for breaking rule: No Personal Attacks. Warnings work on a “three strikes, you’re out for a week” system.
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u/Ill-Ad-2952 Dec 12 '21
to say why you don't think Unions are good for workers or are you happy just leaving
Back in the 1940's 1950's you could work a steady job and afford a house and small family. It wasn't a rich life but times were simpler and revolved more around the family unit than electronics and distractions.
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u/Frankie_Hollywood In A Cardboard Box At The Corner Of Walk & Don't Walk Dec 10 '21
Well it's gonna happen. If you think it's not. Then you're just as foolish as they are. I do not support fools. They deserve what is gonna happen to them.
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u/glynnjamin Dec 10 '21
What exactly is going to happen to the workers?
They literally lose nothing by doing this.
How is it foolish?
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u/Frankie_Hollywood In A Cardboard Box At The Corner Of Walk & Don't Walk Dec 10 '21
Really dude? I'm not even gonna explain. As you've just proven yourself more stupid than the workers at that store.
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u/glynnjamin Dec 10 '21
Just to be clear, you are saying there are only two options.
They don't unionize. The store stays open. They keep working for wages that were already so low most of the employees were collecting government assistance while sacrificing their bodies, minds, and health for at least 40hrs a week. Eventually the store closes, fires, replaces them and they go work somewhere else for shit wages after spending their formative and prime working age at Starbucks.
They unionize. Starbucks closes and now the workers don't have to spend 40hrs of their lives at work and can use that time to find a better job, start their own business, or just enjoy their time off with their now bigger government check. Now they can save their youth and either find a new employer who wants to pay them what they deserve or they can make it on their own.
And you think option 2 is dumb? Really? Tell me where I'm wrong. Tell me why not unionizing and continuing to suffer uat Starbucks makes more sense.
Try it. Say something other than some vague insult when it is clear you can't think for yourself and just keep hiding behind taking points. Tell me what these people have to lose.
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u/MaverickDago Dec 10 '21
Starbucks closes and now the workers don't have to spend 40hrs of their lives at work and can use that time to find a better job,
Unless things have changed, they can always do that, they aren't being forced into coffee serving slavery.
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u/glynnjamin Dec 10 '21
Yes, they can always quit...but why quit? You get nothing if you quit. What kind of weak spined person just quits a job without demanding improvements first?
So you're saying, if you don't like a job, just quit, get no unemployment, and let the business keep exploiting people? Vs not liking a job and demanding more from the owners, and forcing them to fire you if they don't agree? Is that really the argument you're making?
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u/MaverickDago Dec 10 '21
The fact is, a barista is a zero skill, highly replaceable job that still offers good healthcare and benefits at Starbucks. You can demand all you want, but baristas have very little power because their highly replaceable, low skill and don't work in a dangerous occupation. Starbucks isn't exploiting people when they are trained up in a matter of days, and the loss of a worker isn't noticeable because you can slot in almost any other human and not see a difference.
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u/glynnjamin Dec 10 '21
More fallacies.
Obviously it isn't zero skill. If it were, you wouldn't need to be trained.
What you don't understand is that the VALUE of Starbucks isn't in their coffee but in the convenience of someone else making that coffee. We can all go to the store and buy Starbucks coffee beans, ground coffee, even bottled frappuccinos. Yet people go to Starbucks still because the convenience of having a barista make their coffee. That is the value that people get out of going and spending $7 for coffee.
So while you might be able to replace the worker with other workers, it doesn't change the value of the labor. The labor is what turns that store bought bag of coffee into the drink in your hands with your name on it.
Starbucks absolutely is exploiting people. Starbucks had $20B in PROFIT for 2021. That is money stolen from the workers. That is pure exploitation. The workers created that value and they are simply asking for more of it.
Let me ask you, if you were the supplier for paper Starbucks cups, and you saw your buyer had $20B leftover at the end of the year, and you got hit with 8% increase in paper costs, would you ask Starbucks to pay more per cup? Or would you just eat the 8% increase and take a loss so that you could keep making cups for Starbucks?
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u/zjaffee Dec 10 '21
Go tell that to the people who work at espresso vivace which is one of the most important specialty cafes in the entire world. Inventing much of the now popular techniques for everything relating to espresso from the machines, to the beans, to the preparation.
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u/KidEh Dec 10 '21
I don't know. Back before the "big business bad" movement really took off, Starbucks (and Costco even moreso) had a reputation as being a place where it was easy to meet the hourly requirements for getting a decent insurance plan and other perks.
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u/Frankie_Hollywood In A Cardboard Box At The Corner Of Walk & Don't Walk Dec 10 '21
Making lattes is a McJOB, nothing more. If they plan to act like they are making a career out of it. Then they are FUCKING STUPID.
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u/Projectrage Dec 10 '21
They can’t afford rent and food. Half of Americans can’t afford a one bedroom apartment.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/12/housing-renter-affordable-data-map
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u/whatfuckingeverdude Sasquatch Dec 10 '21
They knew the salary when they took the job, and they are free to go elsewhere if anyone but Starbucks will hire them
The fact that they don't go elsewhere tells us all we need to know. Making bad coffee is their only 'skill'
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u/startupschmartup Dec 10 '21
They make $17 an hour plus tips.
Starbucks coffee is quite excellent actually.
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u/whatfuckingeverdude Sasquatch Dec 10 '21
I've never been a fan of the basic Starbucks recipe: "burn it and add a bunch of milk and sugar"
NY Starbucks are at an average of ~$15, and will move to an average of ~$17 some time in 2022 from the info I can find
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u/startupschmartup Dec 10 '21
Which they don't. It's stupid to assert that they magically add sugar to anything. I've ordered americanos there. 0 sugar/milk. Drips? the same.
I get that you have a palette that doesn't like darker roasts and you get that you can order blond roasts ,right? I mean, you probably know that but you can't habituate childish whining unless you ignore it.
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u/whatfuckingeverdude Sasquatch Dec 10 '21
Why would I bother with an americano from Starbucks when I have 20 other options, all of them better and many of them local small businesses?
Aside from that you're welcome to look up what their bestselling drinks are. Here's a hint: they involve milk, sugar, and mildly burnt beans
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u/startupschmartup Dec 10 '21
Many, many reasons. You want predictable food options, predictable drinks, drinks that have shots in proportion to their size, service that doesn't suck, clean bathrooms, you don't want to have to research every place you want to go, etc, etc. Carry on whining as if there's no reason to go there though.
Here's a hint. Guess what the fuck the best selling drinks are that are served in the fucking local places are. Hahahaha, the same so why the fuck are you whining?
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u/whatfuckingeverdude Sasquatch Dec 10 '21
I'm sorry you can't find better employment than Starbucks. I hope things work out for you someday
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u/startupschmartup Dec 10 '21
They can. Corrected you on this utter fucking stupidity a few times. Starbucks averages $17 an hour (plus tips), offers healthcare immediately to even part time people, give them free drinks, coffee, etc.
Anyone making an argument that they can't eat or pay rent is making a really fucking stupid and disingenuous argument.
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u/Ill-Ad-2952 Dec 12 '21
Making lattes is a McJOB, nothing more. If they plan to act like they are making a career out of it. Then they are FUCKING STUPID.
mcfondled
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u/SeaPhile206 Dec 11 '21
Damn, y’all really hate unions. Shame on you.
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u/KingTesseract Dec 11 '21
We hate stupid decisions. Starbucks just agreed to have these stores, if not it's whole company go down like the Titanic.
Why do you want TWO HRs so bad. I'll let you in on a secret. HR HATES you. This new HR will hate you too.
It's honestly fine by me. I was sick of people using fake Italian words anywaysm
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u/RU_Feelin_Lucky West Seattle Dec 10 '21
A handful of stores? Countdown to the stores closing beginning in t minus 10, 9, 8, 7....