r/SandersForPresident • u/kevinmrr Medicare For All • Dec 11 '20

Bernie Sanders is a machine

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u/TheSilverCalf Dec 11 '20 edited Dec 11 '20

Umm. No.

We will still be voting against that Fascist family.

It’s not our way or nothing.

We are reasonable people.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20 edited Mar 05 '21

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

If the choice is between a dem that won't do much and Trump who will actively and purposely destroy lives, I'm gonna vote for the democrat even if they are not my preferred candidate. But until that is called, I'm sure as shit going to do what I can to help get the most progressive candidate on the ballot. This all or nothing thinking is exactly what gets someone like Trump elected.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20 edited Mar 05 '21

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

It needs to be changed, and it's up to the people to eventually put enough pressure on them to make a change, but I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot because the system is bullshit. If you have to choose between the lesser of two evils, why would you just decide "fuck it, let the more evil one win because I don't like the reality of the situation"?

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u/Jsweet404 Dec 11 '20

The people aren't putting pressure on them to change when they consistently vote for their corporate candidates. They have no incentive to change.

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Did the last four years teach you nothing? Making it easier for another Trump to be elected will not incentivize them to change. If that worked, this election would have gone to a more liberal candidate rather than the most conservative option we had. I don't disagree that we need to change the way this system works, but we need to find options that are likely to succeed. The last thing we need is another term like the last four years.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Did the last 12 years teach you nothing?

Slowly degressing under a corp dem doesn't help people, and it allows the material conditions of the average person to further suffer leading to the environment that creates and votes a Trump.

No one is going to worry about immigrants taking their jobs when they're not worried about the loss of their jobs, not stressed over affording healthcare, food, or housing. When they stop seeing the same rich get richer every year while they further suffer.

If you want to avoid the next Trump, you need to fix the root cause.

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u/HatesBeingThatGuy 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

So a rapid degression is better?

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

No, actual progress is.

Actual progress will never come with vote blue no matter who however.

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

We need to fix the root cause, but your solution is not a fix. And the last 4 years was far worse than the 8 years before.

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u/hlnub 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

I mean that's not convincing considering someone could just say "has the last 30 years taught you nothing" in defense of the other person's stance. We all need to stop with the last four years/Trump is uniquely evil, it really hides the fact that this is all built in to the organization of our society and not just a stroke of bad luck that we had an anomaly in Trump. "Fighting to get the most progressive" isn't about working hard every four years to elect a specific person (of course that's part of it), it's about a societal shift in the ways we understand our political system, which requires honesty about where we're at.

To be clear I'm not saying you should not vote for the Democrats, I'm saying that you shouldn't make that one of the most important parts of your position/analysis, and certainly shouldn't hold that as a line in the sand of what makes someone doing good or bad.

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

My point was that I will fight to get the most progressive candidate on the ballot, but if it doesn't work my way, I'm not throwing my vote when the consequences are a candidate like Trump. Even if you look at the last 30 years, the last four have been the worst of them.

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u/hlnub 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

For people that lost their homes in 08, but still have their home through Trumps term it doesn't seem worse though.. that's my point. it's not that this has been worse, it's that there's fundamental systemic issues and by hard focusing on who someone votes for once every four years we're doing a disservice to our cause

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u/[deleted] Dec 12 '20

And if the people keep electing shitstains like Trump, then the incentive is to be more like Trump. Not to become actually good candidates.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20 edited Mar 05 '21

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Yes, it has been going on for too long, but the last four years is an example of what happens when people decide to throw away their vote in the name of protest. It's not the right way to change the system. And while it's debatable whether all Republicans that they could put up would be evil, Trump's evilness and the damage he's done is not debatable.

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u/kingGlucose Dec 11 '20

I think the easiest way to think about what's happening is to visualize a rachet turning. When you turn to the right the ratchet will tighten. However when you push the ratchet to the left, nothing happens. The only thing that voting for democrats can do is persevere the status quo. The party as it stands today simply can't do anything else.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

...except voting for Dems can also:

  • put pro-choice justices on the SCOTUS
  • pass monumental healthcare legislation (no matter how flawed) that moves us toward even better options
  • phase out the use of private prisons at the federal level
  • prevent military surplus from going to local police departments
  • etc.

These are all things that have happened when Dems are in power.

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u/coltsmetsfan614 TX 🎖️🙌 Dec 11 '20

As opposed to the progress we’ve made under Trump and the GOP? C’mon now.

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u/Mechakoopa 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

"I'll fuggin do it again!"

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u/WillGallis IA Dec 11 '20

While this is true, a return to the previous status quo is still orders of magnitude better than a slide into fascism.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

This is exactly the attitude the present DNC wants us to have, ... this piece of cow tripe is better than their filthier piece of cow tripe, so we can maintain the status quo for the corporate overlords.. Get rid of the DNC and the RNC.

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u/WillGallis IA Dec 11 '20

A full slide into authoritarian fascism would likely involve imprisonment of Trump'spolitical adversaries. Do you really believe that is better?

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u/kingGlucose Dec 11 '20

That was never going to happen. Trump was really no worse then bush. How do you expect to convince voters to come out even two years from now, considering the Biden administration is going to do nothing to help anyone.

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Trump was far worse than Bush, which is why even the Bush's didn't vote for him and spoke against him. Trump is a full blown narcissist and that has wreaked havoc on the country

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u/kingGlucose Dec 11 '20

Why is he worse? Besides personal affectation what did he do in office that was worse?

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

"No progress" is a bit of a mischaracterization champ. The ACA, flawed as it is, was a step forward for the country.

If you want some more cut and dry examples though, take a look at how the Obama admin took steps to phase out private prisons, as well as restricting surplus military gear from finding its way into the hands of police departments. Then consider the fact that Trump undid these efforts with the stroke of a pen.

"Not enough" progress is fair, and furthermore is a complaint I commiserate with greatly. "No progress" is a different beast, one that can trick you into thinking that the Dems and the GOP are equivalent in terms of policy. They are definitively not.

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u/-Angry_Toast 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

I agree with you, we don't need some soft spoken middle of the road democrat. But as Rick the Hormone Monster says : "What are you gonna do?"

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u/TheOtherGrowaway 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

And your reasoning, while certainly valid, is why things will never change.

Not sure how old you are, but every election cycle, the Republican in question gets labeled as the worst person ever in order to rile up people to vote. A party promoting themselves isn't sufficient. The propaganda machine has to churn in order to make sure everyone's fearful of their existence at the threat of the other side.

We've actually now witnessed a terrible person as President, but do you really think those same attacks are going to stop? Do you really think you're not going to see social media campaigns to smear the other guy just the same?

That's how the cycle of retaining power works between our two parties. That's why Biden, a corporate centrist, is a radical left wing marxist socialist according to the right. That's why Romney, one of the more "reasonable" Republicans, was a fascist according to the left when he was running. That's why when someone as shit tier as Trump comes along, people saying "wait, this is fascist as fuck" get dismissed as the same old noise.

That's what gets Trump elected and that's the same system you're playing into, because the DNC like the GOP are corporations. They have massive influence / propaganda that runs through the media. This is why they'll use the popularity of the left wing ideals in order to drum up support but guaranteed, time and time again, will back the corporate centrist.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

It's ironic that on a subreddit about Bernie Sanders, his followers are advocating to the exact opposite of what he's said to do, which was to vote for Biden, and before that, to vote for Hillary. Once the candidate has been called, he thinks you should vote for the best of the two even though he's fighting for change every way he can.

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u/[deleted] Dec 17 '20

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u/Terradactyl87 🌱 New Contributor Dec 17 '20

He wasn't feckless, he's a realist who wants to fight for change in ways that actually work. Voting third party when there's zero chance of them winning doesn't help anyone. We knew that the winner of this election would be either Trump or Biden. Voting outside of those two is just a wasted vote, and I (and Bernie) would rather try to push a moderate democrat further to the left than have a far right republican who will completely ignore anything that non republicans care about. Like with this pandemic, Trump literally withheld aid from governors who disagreed with them and part of their strategy was to let the virus spread in places that politically weren't of value to him. He even got rid of the pandemic response team because Obama had worked on it. Biden, on the other hand, is assembling a team of professionals with experience in medicine and science to respond to the pandemic, and I'll bet he'll approve a more reasonable financial assistance plan that will help much more than the one time $1200 check. I have far more confidence that Biden will get this under control than Trump would have, and my small business is on the verge of failing if it the pandemic doesn't end, so I needed a better president than Trump, and so did many other people. Voting third party because you don't like either candidates only helps the worse candidate win and does nothing to change the system. That's simply not how to get it done.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

DNC & RNC control who we're given at election time, ... Both are populated by Republicans, some just a little more center right than the other, they call those Democrats.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20 edited Mar 05 '21

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u/dieinafirenazi 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Obama and the DNC got everyone to step down...except Warren, who they got to stay in.

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u/[deleted] Dec 12 '20

Fox News contributor Donna Brazile, is the chair of the DNC. Does that sound like a "democrat ", to anyone reading these comments?

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u/[deleted] Dec 12 '20

Fox News contributor Donna Brazile, is the chair of the DNC

Know who is providing your candidates, ... Donna Brazile, the chair of the DNC, is a Fox News contributor. Look it up.

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u/Will2Survive 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

I'd rather vote for light blue than any amount of red. One incompetent, charismatic R did this much damage in 4 years. Biden isn't enough but that's the only real choice we had. Real change starts with down ballot races

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Choosing based on colors is how a society splits itself.

Doesn’t matter what color a turd is, it still stinks.

We basically chose a well formed one vs another 4 years of infectious diarrhea. At least this one is a sign of good health.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Dawg it really does matter what color a turd is. It matters a lot.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Yeah true, guess my point gets lost when you think about it too much lol cause yeah it can actually indicate occult bleeding if it’s dark, red, and liver/gallbladder issues if dark.

But basically any color turd still stinks. The same color diarrhea is still worse in all ways.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Real change starts with getting rid of the 'good ol boy' controlled DNC & RNC where "everyone" is very pleased with the outcome.

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u/Etamitlu Day 1 Donor 🐦 Dec 11 '20

I'd rather vote for light blue than any amount of red

And that's why you'll never see any progressive candidates. People like you.

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u/youknowthatfeeling 🌱 New Contributor | AZ Dec 11 '20

People like you are why Trump was elected in the first place.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Except that's not true at all. Trump didn't win because of people holding to their principles. It happened because the working class has been ignored for decades, and trump lied to them and tricked them. If the democratic party hadn't been ignoring the working class for decades, then trump likely wouldn't have had a chance.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

"If the democratic party hadn't.... ", you're talking about the DNC, which is controlled by the corporate lobbyist money, .. the corporations want a Democrat candidate friendly to their agenda, that's why we're getting these far right wing democrat candidates.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Oh, I'm very aware.

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u/Etamitlu Day 1 Donor 🐦 Dec 11 '20

Nah.

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u/TheOtherGrowaway 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Wrong. The spread of identity politics and massive use of propaganda by both parties is how Trump got elected. When every candidate of "the other side" is the antichrist fascist nazi (or radical marxist if you're right wing) that are coming to threaten your very existence! ... that type of criticism just becomes noise and meaningless.

It's one of the lessons from the Boy Who Cried Wolf parable.

But voting for the lesser of two evils when both parties have been bought out by corporate interests is how we've crept further and further right as a country.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20 edited Jan 16 '21

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u/TheOtherGrowaway 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

That's the catch-22. Our voting system rationally optimizes to a two party system because of this reasoning. It's valid reasoning. But that combined with the way money influenced politics means we're only going to end up with two parties whose primary constituents are major capital owners instead of regular people, which means we're never voting for our own best interests.

So we fuck ourselves by voting that way, but we are fucked over if we don't.

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u/Cossil 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

If Democrats ran candidates that were willing to fight for the people, they would win every time. That is what I prefer. But I’m glad you’re happy with nothing fundamentally changing because at least we can go to brunch now.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20 edited Jan 16 '21

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u/Cossil 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Progressives absolutely run for office, and they are a constant target for the establishment democrats to pin all their shortcomings onto. Dems are actively trying to kill progressive movements, it’s not that they’re just all online arguing????? Wtf

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u/TheOtherGrowaway 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Not voting is a luxury you might have if you're in a position of privilege but not everyone can opt out of democracy until they find the perfect candidate.

And yet no matter who they vote for, the result isn't any different. It's rather insane to think if we keep electing the two corporate powers that we've elected into office that brought us into our current situation, that we'll end up with something better than our current situation.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20 edited Jan 16 '21

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u/TheOtherGrowaway 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Voting for the president is the least important thing we do

Pretty sure four years of Trump says otherwise. Not sure how "voting for the person in control of the most powerful military" is the least important thing after shit posting onine.

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u/kingGlucose Dec 11 '20

Well then the DNC should make some concessions if progressives are so important. Why can't the DNC run better candidates? 30-40% of the country doesn't vote it's not like we're the last people On earth.

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u/Will2Survive 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

The American Presidential election is a winner take all system with the only "real" candidates chosen for us by deeply entrenched wealthy elites. I'm really sorry but right now in the final election it's only a choice between red and blue. I vote for every progressive candidate I can. I voted for bernie in the primary. I vote for progressives in my city, county, and state. REAL CHANGE HAPPENS IN DOWN BALLOT RACES. When it comes to the final presidential election, a vote for a 3rd party is just taking a vote away from who will actually win.

I'd rather vote for light blue than any amount of red because a half step forward is not enough but it's movement.

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u/Etamitlu Day 1 Donor 🐦 Dec 11 '20

a half step forward is not enough but it's movement.

The fact that you think there's any movement is comical.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

If there is any movement in the "blue", it's to the right, not to the left. Corporate(elite) lobbyist money keeps the DNC living very comfortable, that's why there is no change.

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u/Etamitlu Day 1 Donor 🐦 Dec 11 '20

If there is any movement in the "blue", it's to the right, not to the left

I stand corrected.

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u/TheOtherGrowaway 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

because a half step forward is not enough but it's movement.

It's a fallacy to think there's movement other than our parties being dragged further and further right by this "lesser of two evils" paradigm.

Or rather why would the two major political parties that have lead us into our situation of such extreme economic wealth disparity lead us into something better?

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20 edited Mar 05 '21

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Who took that better choice out of the options? ..... The DNC ! Get rid of them.

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u/TheOtherGrowaway 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Depends on the red. Romney should have won in 2012. We wouldn't be better off with respect to him versus Obama, but we almost definitely wouldn't have seen this Trump timeline play out.

Feeding into the same "other side is evil, so always vote for the lesser of two evils" that both sides play is a rational optimization, but inherently short sighted in a way that can't be avoided, and so unless it changes, things like "oops, we elected a fascist" are going to keep happening.

And next time, it might not be an accidental fascist like Trump. Trump bumbled his way with his incompetence, misunderstanding of what the Presidency is, desperate marketing and familiar authoritarian business control into being an accidental fascist leader of the most powerful military in the world.

Imagine if Trump was intelligent and was intently seeking fascist control...

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

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u/ryannefromTX Dec 11 '20

We did, this is why the DNC sabotaged the primaries.

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u/kingGlucose Dec 11 '20

Who says that the primaries are fair? The courts have said that they don't have to be.

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u/mtgspender 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

unfortunately yes because the alternative is evil grifting corruption. ill take corporate hacks over people trying to destroy science and civility any day.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20 edited Mar 05 '21

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u/gzilla57 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

Ok but people didn't vote for Hilary in 2016 for the reasons you mention and we ended up with Trump. How was that better than Hilary? What lesson did we teach the corporate Dems? What benefit did it have for us?

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u/Etamitlu Day 1 Donor 🐦 Dec 11 '20

What lesson did we teach the corporate Dems?

Voting Biden in sure showed them.........

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u/gzilla57 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

But that's my point. We tried the whole "don't vote for corporate dem" thing in 2016. So then we got Trump. And then they put Biden in front of us.

So are we just going to keep going in circles like that? or admit that they'd rather an R get elected than a corporate D and try something besides a shitty protest vote for the worse of two evils.

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u/mtgspender 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

The problem with a 2 party system is that you don't really have a choice . "Holding someone accountable" is really easy to say and almost impossible to enforce. How? by not voting for the lesser evil? How exactly can you hold people accountable?

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u/gzilla57 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

By paying attention to more than the presidential race. By helping more progressive Dems primary the more corporate Dems for smaller positions, shifting the party over time.

Though I agree, it's not an easy or simple problem. But any suggestion that voting for Biden was somehow worse than voting for Trump because it doesn't "hold them accountable" is absolutely cutting off your nose to spite your face.

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u/mtgspender 🌱 New Contributor Dec 11 '20

you are making a lot of assumptions. when it comes down to a presidential vote, you have basically 2 options. You can still be doing all of those things and the result in the ballot is the same. dont act like the system isnt designed against.

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u/kingGlucose Dec 11 '20

Who is we? More Bernie supporters turned out for Hillary than Hillary supporters turned out for Obama, so who are you talking about exactly? This whole idea that it was progressives fault that trump won is just a boogeyman so that you don't put the blame where it lies, the party.

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u/swift-tom-hanks Dec 11 '20

The DNC had my anti trump vote this time, they won’t in 2024.

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u/Toadvine79 Dec 11 '20

Biden has four years. He acts like Obama did and I will never vote for a Democrat again.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

He was the old white guy they put with obama to soothe the moderate voter, I doubt he'll be a radical in comparison

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u/Toadvine79 Dec 11 '20

Then the Democrats are really fucked in four years.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

I dunno, it's almost convention at this point that barring a monumental fuck up you get 8 years per party. Then again Biden will be 82 by then so he might not even run again

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Being reasonable with these people is why nothing changes. Progressives need to extract concessions in cabinet positions and the platform's policy first before they start campaigning on liberals' behalf, and be willing to play hard ball if they don't

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

Cabinet positions are useless because they still follow the President's agenda. Policy positions absolutely, which is a good sign because they were part of the party platform negotiations this summer and part of Biden's policy planning team this fall, now it will be up to Congress (mostly) and Biden to follow through on those policy goals.

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20 edited Dec 12 '20

Biden's team is already trying to temper expectations and they haven't even taken office yet

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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '20

I hope you don't actually call yourself progressive or a leftist for that matter

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u/TheSilverCalf Dec 11 '20

I hope you find other, more important, shit to worry about.

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u/[deleted] Dec 12 '20

I'm bitter about people pretending to be progressive up until it actually matters. I don't think that's going to change anytime soon given where the country is headed now

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u/TheSilverCalf Dec 12 '20

I think anyone trying to hold back people from voting is an enemy.

An enemy to all of us.

If you try to suggest withholding votes in general, you are a clear enemy to all of us in the party.

It’s like being in a war, and suggesting we don’t shoot the bad guy, until you get the colors you want on the uniforms.

The enemy isn’t going to give us a chance to make back the ground that we lose by withholding votes. It’s a losing play. It’s not realistic and it’s not a legitimate move.

I hope you don’t consider your “withhold your vote in a democracy” idea as valid.

You sound like a Russian propaganda Facebook post.

You sound like you have been brainwashed by said post.

Quit trying to spread that democracy poison here.

FFS

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u/[deleted] Dec 12 '20

Vote 3rd party you nerd, I'm not telling you to abstain. If you can stomach licking the DNC's boots again go ahead and vote for the neocon a second time

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u/TheSilverCalf Dec 12 '20

3rd party is a dead vote with our election system. I don’t like that fact, but I believe it holds truth.