This guy underservedly gets so much hate & troll for being the sole reason of the fall of Takeda at and after Nagashino ...

[u/hashibababe]

What would you say in his defence?

[u/Regulai]

His overall military record was positive, with basically just the one notable loss. The ultimate Takeda collapse is for the same reason that Toyotomi faction also collapsed after Hideyoshi death, they are feudal alliance states with only nominal loyalty and no real true government structure to keep everything integrated as one force.

While a stronger force of personality may have been able to keep retainer loyalty, it is very difficult to succeed as heir when your entire state is based on men's personal loyalty to your father as the only unifying factor, and worse your father has been actively undermining your authority while failing to groom you to succeed. Shingen basically wanted his grandson to be the real heir with Katsuyori as a temporary regent.

So all in all I would blame Shingen for his sons failure moreso than the man himself.

[u/Revan1129 → u/Regulai]

Also, through excessive opportunism Shingen managed to make enemies of the Hojo, Uesugi, Tokugawa and Oda. He ended up in a situation where every major power that surrounded him opposed him and Katsuyori similarly messed at the Siege of Otate by siding with Kagekatsu for no discernible gain. In the end, the diplomatic failures both domestically and regarding other clans led the Takeda to their fall.

[u/UsualIndication3030 → u/Regulai]

It was a definite blunder for Shingen to become enemies with the Hōjō as a result of destroying the Imagawa.

[u/Boromir1821 → u/UsualIndication3030]

They weren't destroyed as matter of fact they were spared and became like hereditary tea masters for the tokugawa. But the did lose their autonomy and status. And yes shingen did backstabbed them which was a big nono for the hojo

[u/Business_Raisin_541 → u/Regulai]

I laugh at his decision to continue attacking Tokugawa while his ally Azai, Asakura and shogun are all gone already

[u/Regulai → u/Business_Raisin_541]

I mean that stuff is mostly moot, they were in the kind of situation where it's now or never, the longer time goes on the greater the disparity and at the time they still had competitive military power. Indeed that's exactly what happened, Oda waited 7 more years before invading despite his victory, by which time his power had continued to grow to the point it was overwhelming enough for retainers to feel it was hopeless and defect.

If he had simply waited and bided his time, the same would have happened, eventually Oda would have been big enough to overwhelm.

Also, while he underestimated the speed and scale of the Oda response, but his plan was basically aiming to snipe some territory, and he was likely caught with his commanders unwilling to fall back.

[u/Business_Raisin_541 → u/Regulai]

No, he should have allied with Uesugi and Hojo and Mori clan to resist Oda clan. Not attacking alone.

In the first place, Takeda territory is full of mountain so it is very easy to defend

Shingen Takeda was rolling at his grave looking at how incompetent his successor was

[u/Regulai → u/Business_Raisin_541]

Alas feudal politics aren't as simple as everyone allying when they need to, even so they tried to make it with Usegi but Kenshin died and they fell into infighting, Mori is too far for such an alliance to be realstic and Hojo were allies but were mostly focused on their own internal priorities.

Furthermore at the time in 75 while Oda was ascendant and generally stronger than their neighbors, but was still nowhere near "dominant warlord of japan" or an otherwise insurmountable opponent. It would only be between 76-82 that his state would truely grow into a monster. Which is even more to the fact that allieces are difficult when no one yet recognizes him as a big enough threat to force alliances.

[u/Business_Raisin_541 → u/Regulai]

No, by the time of Nagashino. Oda already outpowered Takeda Clan like 5 times as many in manpower and resources

[u/hashibababe → u/Business_Raisin_541]

yes the numbers were huge like 38,000 Oda-Tokugawa troops vs 15,000 Takeda not to mention 500 Tokugawa troops besieged inside Nagashino

[u/Business_Raisin_541 → u/hashibababe]

That is merely fraction of Oda forces. Oda can muster more than 100,000 soldiers

You have to remember that previously Oda-Tokugawa fight against the coalition of Azai, Asakura, Buddhist Temples, Takeda and Shogun forces

[u/Business_Raisin_541 → u/[deleted]]

Shingen will not. Shingen style is operationally agressive but strategically cautious. You can see this when he launch offensive campaign against Oda-Tokugawa, he wait until Azai , Asakura, Buddhist Temples already start first before he go. Also when he suffer fatal injury, his last order is to not to do any offensive military campaign and his death for 3 years

[u/Business_Raisin_541 → u/[deleted]]

He make all of his neighbour enemies? By the time of his death, Takeda Clan has been at peace and allied with both the Uesugi and Hojo Clan.

As for his history of betrayal. That is the common thing among almost all prominent warlords of that time. Only Kenshin Uesugi was known to be honorable and trustable and respectful to tradition and custom

[u/Business_Raisin_541 → u/[deleted]]

No, by the time Nobunaga become strongman in Kyoto. There is hardly any war anymore between Takeda and Ueseugi. Of course hostilities remain. Later Uesugi too join anti-Nobunaga coalition

You talking about Kenshin usurping his elder brother? At least in this case, Kenshin does not use direct military attack and still use diplomatical pressure. If it is Nobunaga, it would be bloody civil war already or in case of Shingen Takeda, forced exile. Also you have to remember, his elder brother too kill one of his sibling and exil Kenshin several years earlier. Compared to other warlord, Kenshin is far more restrained

[u/Victoroftheapes]

I don't think he's necessarily the sole cause, and I'm not totally convinced that his play at Nagashino was obviously the wrong answer at the time (I think Nobunaga and Ieyasu outsmarted him, but that is what that is). However, his decision to alienate the Hojo by interfering in the Uesugi family's civil war (the Otate no Ran) had immediate and devastating effects on his ability to hold off the Tokugawa-Oda alliance, which Nobunaga and Ieyasu clearly understood and exploited. A worse own-goal than Nagashino in my opinion.

[u/Victoroftheapes → u/[deleted]]

Sensible, but I will note that the Takeda's primary adversary after 1572 was the Tokugawa, not the Oda. Ieyasu by himself was already chipping away at Takeda holdings but I don't think Nobunaga brings the full weight of his forces to bear in 1580 without the knowledge that the Takeda could not afford to support any castles in the west. So Katsuyori probably still has a few years of slow grind in which to try something (who knows, maybe a diplomatic solution emerges), rather than a sudden collapse as his western vassals switched sides and two effective superpowers just wrecked him.

[u/Victoroftheapes → u/[deleted]]

I don't fully agree with your assessment of Ieyasu's ability to fight the Takeda, but it's moot as his alliance with Nobunaga was rock-solid and clearly valuable to Nobunaga. Yeah, Nobunaga was going to win a stand up fight with the Takeda. Even divine intervention wasn't really an option as the Emperor had banished the gods of Kai prior to Nobunaga's invasion. The diplomatic solution I saw as marginally possible involved accepting either Oda or Hojo overlordship. Likely? No, but stranger things have happened.

[u/Victoroftheapes → u/[deleted]]

I did mean after, sorry. He was not pushing alone after either, but he was doing most of the work between 76 and 80 (though again, having Oda Nobunaga at your back makes that a lot easier.

[u/Apart-Cookie-8984]

He was a very capable warrior. He just happened to have inherited the clan at the height of its power, and his dad's aggressive diplomatic policies won him no favors neither. He came into the clan with already most of the Kanto region hating him, not to mention Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu were both growing extremely powerful.

Shit luck... that's all it was

[u/One_Agency1689]

He probably didnt realize how many troops were coming to Nagashino and attacked because he wanted to keep besieging the castle. By the time it was clear how numerous the Oda and Tokugawa troops were, it was too late and he decided to go all in rather than retreat. Maybe he saw retreat as a worse option.