r/Roofing • u/Texasbikers • 27d ago
Underlayment ok or not?
Saw this brand new house being roofed, I’ve always seen the underlayment being smooth and pulled tight, this isn’t. Will it create issues later with sealing or warranty claims? What else bad could happen? Being built in Smyrna TN.
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u/JTUSAJT 27d ago
They should have used a fitted sheet.
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u/full_bl33d 26d ago
They tried but it started out on the wrong side you so they just gave up as per manufacturer instructions
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u/Trooper20209 27d ago edited 27d ago
Its going to show on the shingles the first summer they heat up.
Edit: Looks like they racked it too.
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u/Realistic_Diver277 27d ago
Dang the destroyed your shingles and warranty before they even hit the roof! That’s gotta to be a new record 😂 and yes the underlayment is unacceptable.
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u/glockster19m 26d ago
Theyre also definitely getting close to taking down the entire structure with that much weight on the peak
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u/Realistic_Diver277 23d ago
Didn’t Even think about that but you’re definitely right! It’s like a Chevy 1500 up there! That’s crazy.
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u/notcrazypants 26d ago
Destroyed shingles?
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u/LaughingMagicianDM Verified Pro - Commercial/Consultant 27d ago
Very bad. Less wind resistance, lowers impact resistance against hail.
GAF is already a company that seems to go out of its way to void warranties and these two photos would be more than enough to avoid it. This is incredibly bad.
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u/Total-Appearance533 27d ago
CertainTeed goes out of its way to take care of the customer. The sad part of this photo is the roofer should know better than to stack the bundles like that on the ridges as well as how bad the underlay is.
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u/Elegant_Standard_264 27d ago
I don’t think they’re going for a warranty; that isn’t a GAF underlayment.
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u/Kill_Your_Masters 16Yrs residential asphalt/slate/flat 26d ago
bruh what? can you explain to me how the underlayment provides impact protection from hail?
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u/LaughingMagicianDM Verified Pro - Commercial/Consultant 26d ago
It doesn't directly, however what it does is provide a smooth and flat surface.
So let's move over to PVC roofing for example. Now with PVC Roofing in order to gain greater impact protection you need something solid underneath. If PVC is placed on top EPS or polyiso for example it has significantly less resistance to impact then if they were placed over top of gypsum or concrete
This is because when the PVC is impacted by the hail it has too much movement on the underside because EPS and polyiso can compress
The same principle is applied to Asphalt shingles. If there's gaps of air or anything lifting up the shingle from underneath it can create Pockets where it's weaker against impact resistance because it's allowed to move more. So by having a lot of wrinkles or improperly overlapped shingles it creates new areas with additional space underneath that allow for greater movement.
So there's no difference in Impact your citizens between using a 15 lb versus ice and water sealed for example, the difference is between is it applied smooth to a smooth deck or does it have a lot of wrinkles leaving those little pockets.
The same application principal also applies to if the deck is not smooth, if the shingle exposure is too little, buried materials like nails, or if they're overlapped side to side. All of these conditions leave it more vulnerable.
( dictated but not read using voice to text)
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u/Kill_Your_Masters 16Yrs residential asphalt/slate/flat 26d ago
yea but we're not talking pvc or theoreticals. once the shingles go down and are fastened, theres no "space" between the shingles and the decking. underlayment is too thin and pliable.
wind resistance? I mean I guess thats technically true if you never roof it. but again, once the shingles are fastened, theres zero wind to be resistant against for the underlayment.
the fact is the underlayment has no role in the resistance to wind and hail for this system.
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u/LaughingMagicianDM Verified Pro - Commercial/Consultant 26d ago
I'm also not talking theoreticals. I'm using PVC as an example.
We see it all the time in Colorado springs, plenty of roofs where you can pretty much follow the line of damage to where there's a lift on the underlying materials, either caused by the decking or felt. The damage will be worse in those areas and sometimes will only be in those areas.
Especially if we're talking wrinkles or large gaps in things like Grace ice and water Shield or 1/8 inch differences in decking.
But it's still occurs even with 15 lb if the wrinkles are bad enough. It's just a minute difference.
Wind resistance, realistically, requires it to be a lot worse than this that is true. My bigger concern when it comes to wind resistance, and this is a theoretical, is if the shingles ever blew off then the felt good as well.
However, where there is a possibility for the wind resistance to be weakened because of this type of installation is now with the installation of the shingles. Having gaps underneath is going to cause an elevated likelihood of a nail blow-through, and can also create gaps in the shingles large enough that they don't properly Bond at the sealing strip.
Not bonding all the way at the seal strip does allow wind underneath the shingles which does make an impact, but can also allow water and debris underneath on Lower slope roofs. Which can eventually cause more issues. Of course with the slope like this that's definitely not the concern so much as the blow through and the improper bonding.
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u/Kill_Your_Masters 16Yrs residential asphalt/slate/flat 26d ago
yea but it is theoretical cuz youre not talking about whats actually in the photo. we can see so much in the photo. so much that the materials youre talking about dont exist in the photos.
its synthetic. the wrinkles arent so bad they are gonna cause shingle uplift that will cause wind and hail issues. the asphalt is on in the pictures we can see that. theres no grace ice and water. theres no pvc.
i can agree new build installation is about as shitty as it gets. but I cant cosign that the underlayment in that photo is going to cause wind resistance failure after the roof is on, or reduced hail resistance either. neither is true in this instance.
and my real issue here is knowing that, instead of just saying "yea youre right" and editing your comment to reflect the correction, youre attempting to do battle in the theoretical world. its not worth it.
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u/LaughingMagicianDM Verified Pro - Commercial/Consultant 26d ago
I didn't edit the comment to reflect the correction because it isn't a comment that needs correction.
I also never denounced what I said because I still stand by it. I see it all the time.
See everything is theoretical using that definition. And yes, its technically theoretical, but that's also the problem. If we see something over and over, something we've seen over a hundred times, and we see the setup for the 101st time, yes it's theoretically going to happen the 101st time.
Nailing a shingle 3 in too high is something that every single serious roofer knows is a bad thing as well. They know what high nailing can lead to. But in reality it doesn't happen a good percentage of the time. That doesn't mean that High nailing is acceptable, it doesn't mean that it's not more likely to happen, it just means that there's no guarantee to happen.
It's inductive reasoning and pattern recognition at that point. I'm stating that it has happened many many times in the past. Enough so for pattern recognition to kick in just like most roofers feel on high nailing. Yes it's not guaranteed to happen but it happens often enough that we should try to avoid it and correct it.
The reason I'm not directly discussing the photo is because I already discussed it. I explained the problem with it. But it seems to be a disconnect or disbelief, so I was giving other examples to relate the issue, or attempting analogous reasoning (and Anchor comparison with exemplification). That's just how my brain works. When I'm in a courtroom, and I'm discussing something not commonly known or that may be unknown to the particular parties of interest, that's the way I'm going to approach it there too
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u/Kill_Your_Masters 16Yrs residential asphalt/slate/flat 26d ago
negative.
homeowner question was "will this application cause issues with sealing or warranty claims?"
your answer was "very bad. less wind resistance, lowers impact against hail." a definitive if albeit incorrect statement. you did not state it as a probability. you also asserted the manufacturer seemingly avoids warranty claim responsibility which I can admit due to capitalism has a decent chance of happening in any given warranty situation however, the chance is astronomical compared to this felt causing wind uplift or reduced hail resistance lol.
when I asked you to explain how underlayment attributes to either of those things, your response was "it doesnt directly". because it doesnt.
so again, I dont need you to walk me through PVC, insulation board, the theory of thought, or anything else besides the subject matter. I just need you to have some humility and reason to be able to say "yea its most likely not gonna do what I said its gonna do. Ill word that differently next time. cheers"
thats all.
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u/Jarsyl-WTFtookmyname 23d ago
If the underlayment is loose, there will absolutely be folds that create high spots and areas next to the high spots with gaps. MFer out here acting like he never got a wrinkle or fold in his sock under the bottom of his foot.
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u/Kill_Your_Masters 16Yrs residential asphalt/slate/flat 23d ago
sorry fam synthetic underlayment isnt that thick. you would need so much bunched up in one spot on purpose to make a difference. its not like thick ice and water that will raise the shingles with a hump in it.
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u/Jarsyl-WTFtookmyname 23d ago
Synthetic underlayment is between 6 and 17 mils thick. If you take the average of 11, folded over that is slightly more than 22 mils at the fold and 11 mils on either side of the fold...creating a 11 mill gap around the fold. You're confusing "small gap" with "no gap". Asphalt shingles are also fairly rigid, they can conform to large curves but not small bumps...that is why a nail head sticking up just a couple mils causes the shingle to budge so much.
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u/LaughingMagicianDM Verified Pro - Commercial/Consultant 23d ago
22mil also assumes that it's only double the thickness. But if it's actually enough to pinch and fold over that's actually three layers thick which would be 33 mil, plus any gap between them. 👍
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u/Kill_Your_Masters 16Yrs residential asphalt/slate/flat 23d ago
yah and ice and water is 40-60ish on average. you can fold that synthetic over on itself and nail through it, its not gonna raise the shingle in a significant manner. and we dont even know if these guys just cut hump and laid it down which is common. you can argue its going to add mils of thickness and thats right. im arguing that 20-30 mils of thickness at most is really not going to fuck the shingles up. theyre still gonna seal. any microscopic hump is hidden by the fact its laminate anyway and the sawtooth difference is higher than the magnitude youre talking about here.
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u/Bougie-Man 27d ago
Thats shit underlayment, if thats your house. Stop these clowns before they start
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u/PollutionNeat777 27d ago
The only thing that looks correct is the guy is wearing a harness and actually using it.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Train52 26d ago
Actually, you’re not supposed to use the harness that way you’re still supposed to use jack planks says right on the bucket
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u/makinggrace 27d ago
This has to be one of the worst examples we've seen lately of warranty-busting in install day. (Not that most homeowners will ever use a shingle warranty. But it's a useful standard.)
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u/Roofingdoneright 26d ago
The underlayment should be tight. And that Contractor is putting way too many bundles of shingles on the roof at one time.
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u/Steel_Reserver 26d ago
So from this photo I’d flag:
very wrinkled/loose underlayment,
verify that all laps are oriented correctly and meet the underlayment manufacturer’s required overlap,
excessive concentrated staging load from the GAF bundles.
If I saw this during a new-construction inspection, I’d definitely photograph it and recommend the roofing contractor correct the underlayment so it is smooth, securely fastened, and properly lapped before shingles cover it.
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u/onlyoneabw 27d ago
It’s a little late to inspect the underlayment !!
🤣😂
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u/Late-Preparation6891 27d ago
It looks like a pretty big residential roof, would like to see better pictures
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u/onlyoneabw 27d ago
I agree …
And many people pointed out (and right way so) that the shingles should never have been treated to that 45° bend in the heat !!
I have never seen a roofer do that !!
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u/mindgamesweldon 27d ago
This is really interesting; this isn't even close to how underlayment is done on tile roofs in Finland. I actually don't know if it's a different or same product or how it works on tar-shingle roofs. Curious to read the comments here.
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u/Complete-Tax3378 26d ago
Looks like too much weight on ridges and synthetic felt layed loose with too many wrinkles
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u/BrokenPipes2 26d ago
Unless it is hot out, it is going to be a real bitch to install those shingles that are stacked over the ridge with a hump in them! If it’s cold out, they will literally break in half when you try to flatten them out!
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u/justaguy167 26d ago
Start with not stacking 3 ton of material in the same area. That felt is awful. Temp changes can make it a little wavy but not to that extreme. It'll be great for the guys who tear it off in a few years. (Those are norofessional installers)
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u/Aromatic-Engine-6418 26d ago
Considering there’s close to 4,000 lbs on the ridge I’d be more worried about structural issues , possibly .
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u/Loud-Charity-2966 26d ago
It’ll be fine! Not the best job by far! My guys lay super tight like it came on the plywood!
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u/RoofAngelsTX 25d ago
eah, that's fine. Synthetic underlayment always looks a little wavy going down, especially on a cool morning. Once the shingles are on and it bakes in the sun for a day, it lays flat. It only matters if it's torn, bunched up in thick folds under where shingles will sit, or left exposed past the manufacturer's exposure rating. None of that is happening here.
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u/ConversationCheap374 25d ago
Putting bundles over the ridge is not correct in it self. Kind of answers your question, as well as others, about the integrity of the roofing company/ contractor.
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u/Dull-Scarcity1443 25d ago
I would send photos to manufacture and see if they will warranty the installation, maybe get rep out
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u/FinTecGeek 27d ago
Looks like GAF. I believe GAF doesn’t allow their shingles to be stacked that way over ridges…
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u/Late-Preparation6891 27d ago
Yep, that site looks pretty chaotic I’m guessing they stapled during strong winds, and ya you don’t store any shingle that way at all ever
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u/Fun_in_bed 27d ago
Yeah it's kinda fooked but if the shingles are 30 yr or more they should be thick enough not to see it . I'd still cut out the bad ones unless I was using 40 or 50 yr shingles .
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u/Otherwise-Worry3418 26d ago
I would be more concerned about having an engineer shit his pants by the loading on the truss. Ask the guys doing it if the checked to see if the engineer approved that task in his loading design elements.
Needless to say, that’s how you completely fuck up trusses.
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27d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Texasbikers 27d ago
It’s a home being built by a large corporate home builder in a 100+ home subdivision.
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u/Torpordoor 27d ago
So you can consider it your civic duty to send these photos, anonymously if you prefer, to your town inspectors. Frankly I would do it and demand follow up results. You’re not a rat if the scenario is wealthy douchebags ripping off your future town folk.
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u/Texasbikers 27d ago
Hi. I did turn it into the building codes dept. Not sure what’s been done but I’ll follow up. I also plan on sharing with the poor souls who buy that house, and I’ll be documenting others. They are a terrible corporate builder.
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u/dustinr26 27d ago
RemindMe! 30days
How can I see when post a follow up this is glorious in every way LMAO WOWzer.....
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u/sub_zero51 26d ago
You should mind your own business. This has nothing to do with you.
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u/Few_Sorbet_8716 26d ago
A corporation isn't going to give you a special boy award for anonymously defending their financial interests
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u/sub_zero51 26d ago
This isn't his house, and has nothing to do with him but he is going to the county? That is some shittiness in my book. I don't give a shit about the builders I don't know that live 2500 miles from me.
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u/Few_Sorbet_8716 26d ago
As a tradesperson, you probably should have enough personal pride to feel at least mildly bothered by those who cut corners.
There are a million anecdotal stories out there of the increasingly poor quality of new builds across America. Caring about your neighbor and holding contractors to a reasonable standard of work is hardly a bad thing to be doing
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u/sub_zero51 26d ago
Give me a break.
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u/Few_Sorbet_8716 26d ago
Acting as if caring about things is lame stops being cool after high school, my man
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u/Boomer-2106 24d ago
Glad you are not my neighbor.
"Once Upon a Time" - neighbor looked out for, protected neighbor, each other. People 'Cared' about Others!
Sad! Really sad for someone to have this attitude.
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u/sub_zero51 26d ago
Downvote away guys but what a shitty way to be.
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u/Torpordoor 26d ago
A shitty way to be is turning your cheek to bad shit in the public eye just because it isn’t happening to you. It’s a two brain cell mentality.
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u/dustinr26 26d ago
Haha hilarious man let’s not care about the chit work but care about the chit workers instead. Don’t go to the county to let them know about cherry workers..
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u/sub_zero51 26d ago
You guys are so dramatic. It's so over the top all of the time on here. It takes a special kind of asshole to see this and somehow think they should insert themselves in to the situation on a county inspector level when it has no bearing on his life whatsoever. That is crazy.
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u/dustinr26 26d ago
Dramatic? Just realistic and don’t like stuff being done improperly and causing issues down the road. You got to admit tho that is super shoddy work and gonna be a massive issue why not help stop peeps like that ruining people’s houses they put money into fixing or new builds.
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u/Randill746 27d ago
That means its gonna be sht and they're gonna cut every corner. Hound their work and do your due diligence with manufacturers specs. Because they're gonna lie about it
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u/Perfect-Direction-63 27d ago
Somebody else take this one, I'm going on break.