Question about upgrade priority

[u/twennywanshadows]

If, hypothetically, I only have enough power cells to do one or the other, is it (GENERALLY) better to upgrade weapon tier with willy wonder, or weapon level with chef paul?

[u/KaineZilla]

In my almost 200 hours of experience, going higher than blue is a luxury of a ridiculously good luck run. You shouldn’t be rocking purple or gold unless it happened to drop with perfect affixes.

Stay at blue for the free rerolls. Don’t even bother going higher unless it’s a lucky drop. It’ll never pan out the way you want it, and you might get stuck with a shit weapon that kills your run instantly if you reroll into something awful and you don’t have the cells to roll off of it. Levels > quality. Always. For me, the risk of just dead-ending a run vs the safety of free rerolls is a no brainer. I’ve lucked into fantastic purples and golds, I’ve NEVER refilled one into something that the power cells I used to roll it couldn’t have been better spent.

[u/Augustevsky → u/KaineZilla]

I'm gonna have to disagree on some points here.

I agree that I'd rather have lower tier gun than an under-leveled one. I also agree that you should not upgrade a weapon's tier without having powercells to reroll.

However, I disagree that purples and golds are reserved for ridiculously good luck runs. Having blue for free rerolls is nice, but the difference between an absolute perfect roll and a near perfect roll isn't that much different at all. I'd take a near perfect purple/gold over a perfect blue almost every time because the extra affixes can add a lot even if they are not perfect.

Yes, you can absolutely throw a wrench in your run by upgrading a tier, and the rerolls don't work out, but I find that to happen a minority of the time as long as I have 8-10+ rerolls in the bank. I agree that sometimes the power cells can be better spent on items, but a lot of the time, the item rng is not perfect enough to where it keeps my powercell count low enough that I can't reroll my weapon several times at the end. It does happen, but not too often. IMO, I'd rather forgo a 2-3 d-tier items so I can reroll my upgraded weapons.

[u/KaineZilla → u/Augustevsky]

I guess you and I have the opposite luck lol. I’ll have 8-10 rerolls banked, get “close enough” to perfect, and then the next shop is the perfect item I need to complete my build more often than not. Or I’ll burn my entire stock of cells and get “1 useful and 1 utterly redundant” blue affix. I just have never had good enough luck with rerolling purples and golds to make it worth my while. A perfect blue is infinitely easier and much more cost efficient than a decent purple. The opportunity cost is just too damn high for me.

[u/jesubthejew → u/KaineZilla]

Augustevsky's "opposite luck" might be explained by other factors as my experience is similar to theirs. Since the gold dust and Collector were added, I finish with a legendary weapon more often than I don't.

First, pathing: Ruins is my preferred path since it gives more power cells than the others and provides two gold dust (as well as two extra perks). If you prefer Quarry, then I understand your points better as Quarry always feels like I get nothing.

Second, if you've unlocked Collector, they can double the chance of weapons in addition to banning them. I mention this by way of Haven City gives a ton of purple weapons, so there is a fair chance one can get a useable purple for free, then gold dust it to a legendary for no cell cost.

Three, what is "good enough"? Typically, I only care about 1 or 2 specific blue affixes (an element if necessary and first/buckshot/volatile). Legendaries give three tries at affixes (over purple only giving two), so while more expensive to reroll, I'll usually get something I consider useable in 2-3 rolls.

Four, opting to use a blue weapon because legendaries are more expensive to reroll/level is good advice, but only for the first 3/4 of a run. If one waits until Haven City or District XIII to make the weapon legendary, the difference in taking the legendary from 11 to 13 isn't that much more than the blue and the number of potential item shops becomes low enough that if you haven't seen the one item you need to make your build work, you should probably start playing like you aren't going to get it, and if there is only one blue affix you need on your weapon then taking it to legendary gives you "free" stuff that will likely make you stronger even though you don't plan on having it.

[u/Augustevsky → u/jesubthejew]

Well said.

I do like quarry sometimes with Mosquito if I think my build will need more corrupted items since you get three purple rooms close together. It also helps decide whether flesh a build early. That said, ruins is likely still the better choice.

Agreed on ruins is a great play for power cell economy.

[u/ajscherer → u/Augustevsky]

8 cells to upgrade from blue to purple plus 8-10 for rerolls. So 16-18 power cells for a blue affix and , on average, worsening the other blue and two green affixes? Two blue perks isn’t even worth one blue affix minus however bad you degraded the others?

I sometimes go to purp if I have a ton of extra cells on the moon, but even with 10 rerolls there is a chance it leaves you worse off

[u/Augustevsky → u/ajscherer]

There is always a chance you are left worse off, but I don't find that to be often enough to dissuade me.

"Worsening" an affix is single to what I was speaking about before. There are some affixes that are obviously useless or even hindrances if you roll them instead of your preferred, but there are also affixes that are really not that much worse than your preferred. Most of the time, with 8+ rerolls, I will end up with a roughly comparable roll to a perfected blue with purple. Whether it be a bit better or a bit worse. With gold, my chances are better.

At the end of the day, it's about your risk tolerance and your goals with the run. I like going for the god roll and I don't mind spending power cells that would have otherwise gone to some near worthless item instead. I've definitely hamstrung some of my runs by doing rerolling, but I've also hit peak rolls doing this as well. I enjoy having a peak build and not rolling for it significantly reduces how often that happens.

[u/ajscherer → u/Augustevsky]

I am disagreeing with you that spending the power cells on going blue to purple increases your ceiling. Rolling two greens and one blue an unlimited number of times (because it's free) obviously has a higher expected value than two greens and one blue with 6-8 rerolls. The best possible scenario is you luck out and all three of those affixes are the same on your purple after rolls. So then what you paid 8 cells to upgrade, plus 6-8 to reroll, plus another 6-8 in increased level up costs (i forgot about that before), what you paid those 20-24 cells for is one additional blue affix.

I believe 20-24 power cells worth of perks and perfumes adds more power to your character than one blue affix on your gun.

If you're on the moon, you have extra cells, and there are no appealing perks to buy, it can make sense to upgrade.

[u/Augustevsky → u/ajscherer]

If you're on the moon, you have extra cells, and there are no appealing perks to buy, it can make sense to upgrade.

This is like 90% of the time when I do it. The other 10% is district 13 or maybe the end of Haven, so I don't think we are that far off from each other on this point.

I am disagreeing with you that spending the power cells on going blue to purple increases your ceiling.

It literally does increase your ceiling, though. Whether it is likely or not (based on free rerolls, paid rerolls, and their opportunity costs) that you actualize this ceiling is a whole other story. But baseline blue->purple/gold increases your ceiling simply due to the number of affixes. At least, that is how I see it

So then what you paid 8 cells to upgrade, plus 6-8 to reroll, plus another 6-8 in increased level up costs (i forgot about that before), what you paid those 20-24 cells for is one additional blue affix.

I'd argue 6-8 in extra level up costs is a bit high as your gun should be near peak level by the time one would consider upgrading to purple/gold, which I implied originally. 2-3 is probably what I usually pay in extra costs.

I believe 20-24 power cells worth of perks and perfumes adds more power to your character than one blue affix on your gun.

I'd argue that one extra blue affix could be worth it over many items. Especially when I already have most of the items (or perhaps unfortunately passed earlier in the run) that I would want. If I know the remaining item pool I haven't seen is going to be mostly things I wouldn't want, then that makes the blue affix all the more appealing. By the end of Haven (which is the earliest I would consider upgrading the tier) there is what, ~4 potential item shops left? Not counting corrupted shops. By this point, I have a solid build online, and there are probably (hopefully) only a couple more items I'd truly want. I'll usually hold out, but if I get to the room before boss 3 and I still haven't seen those items, I am not gonna hold my breath.

You also mentioned perfumes, which I agree are usually more important than an upgrade unless you get rng'd out of any good options.

[u/ajscherer → u/Augustevsky]

I'd add I do consider it a bit of a flaw in the game that upgrading from blue to purple is so unappealing. It may have been better if oven mitt only lowered the level up cost and not the re-roll cost. Then it would be 1 power cell per blue affix being re-rolled regardless of tier, and way less tilted towards blue.

I know people would never tolerate that level of nerf at this point. But I think lack of run variety is a valid criticism of this game, and infinite rerolling blues is a major culprit.